15168 réponses à ce sujet

[t3HPrO]

Idk cause I didn't watch IM2. I did watch número uno though.

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

Wait till you get a chance to see Emma Frost in action in X-Men: First class. The only glaring difference between Emma and Miranda is Emma is a bonafide femme fatale, but other than that, their characterisations are pretty similar. As I mentioned before, a friend of mine clinched my interest in ME2 with that character analogy.
As an aside: I do find it interesting that most of the prominent biotics in the ME universe seem to be women. Someone brought up the archetype about how in fantasy, men are usually the warriors, with women mostly being mages. I found that similar in the sense of how in the Marvelverse, most of the telepaths are women as well.

This is true in the Marvelverse, but there are exceptions in other comics. Supergirl and Power Girl immediately come to mind, as does Red Sonja (a female character so skilled that even Conan, the "face" of that universe can't beat her).

As for ME biotics, I don't think we can count the asari as "female", even though they appear female. If we're only counting prominent non-asari biotics, Kaidan and Wrex are male (Jacob and Thane are too, but they're generally not thought of as powerhouses) and Miranda and Jack are female. Miranda and Jack are probably more powerful than their male counterparts, but I think this is coincidence rather than design.

It would be interesting to find out more about the science behind creating human biotics though. Maybe female physiology lends itself more readily to biotics than male physiology? There are differences between human males and females that could have an effect on their ability to use biotics. For example, there have been a number of studies that suggest that men and women experience and react to pain in very different ways. I could see something like this possibly giving an advantage to one sex or the other when utilizing biotics.

[Arijharn]

It would be interesting if there was a scientific rationale behind women being superior biotics, but mileage obviously varies... my Adept is obviously the most powerful human biotic ever... and he's male

[BioticInfiltrator]

Elyvern wrote...

BioticInfiltrator wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

The seduction idea would be interesting, but I don't see why TIM would want Miranda to seduce Shepard. Her job is to keep him on task and focused. How is he focused if all he can think of is how amazing Miranda's ass looks in her outfit?

Well I can answer that.

I think TIM’s biggest worry about Shepard would be Shepard’s distrust. TIM would be chiefly concerned with controlling Shepard. A good way to do that is to make Shepard feel more comfortable working with Cerberus or
get leverage over Shepard somehow.

If Miranda seduced Shepard it might help Shepard’s feelings toward Cerberus, and if Miranda established a close rapport with Shepard, he might open up to her, giving TIM an advantage he could use.

I just came to this post while I was reading back. And I would like to say that it wouldn't make too much sense for her to tell TIM that he has her resignation from Cerberus. Also, her response about destroying the Collector base wouldn't make too much sense either....

Unless it's a ploy to cover up TIM's real manipulation of Shepard. I could see this happening but, she did sound pretty damn serious about it. Not to mention she would probably have a problem with being an enemy of Cerberus.

I also read a couple of thoughts on DLC. If they do a LI-ish DLC, (you wouldn't of had to romance her for the DLC to not have any meaning.) they would do something along the lines that TIM let slip were Miranda's sister is located and her dad has captured her and well he needs to die in order to free her or an alternate route for the paragons but I would have no problem killing him after what he put Miranda through. This would solidify Miranda's romance option for Shepard and it would be the ultimate last straw for her loyalty towards Cerberus.

If the above paragraph is totally of base. I will admit I have not played LotSB...I am unfortunately waiting to get
payed.....

Worry not. The seduction thing just a conjecture, a little something for us to have fun and discuss about, and personally I hope it stays entirely that way without a hint in the real games. 

There's an incongruity in your argument in that if Shepard doesn't destroy the base, Miranda will not resign, and thus she may still be part of Cerberus. And killing such a potentially amazing character as TIM for something as trivial as this (I mean if I were a writer, I would kill him only at the expense of something really game(galaxy)-breaking) just doesn't pan out.

I'm pretty sure we'll get at least one more major DLC that will bridge ME2 to ME3, which may also tie up nagging loose ends to wipe the slate even further for ME3. The most awful thing about ME3 to me is well...everyone can die, so I'm still up in the air about exclusive material for ME2 squadmates in 3, but a ME2 DLC can still feature them because it remains relevant. But if the devs decide to include LI related material for the last DLC which somehow resolves the conflict about Miranda & her father & Oriana, then I can only sadly conclude that it's probably the last time I'll see of Miranda in any major capacity. (No, the options of her being relegated to a role that another placeholder can take will not be satisfactory so that doesn't count).

I was re-reading my post and could see how it would sound that I would be reffering to killing TIM. I was reffering to Miranda's father though. I do agree that I hope she is not relegated to a small role in ME 3 if they release DLC pertaining to her. I also agree that TIM is to important of character (even though I know he's a bit of a git) to kill off unless it's to preserve something in the Galaxy.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Wait till you get a chance to see Emma Frost in action in X-Men: First class. The only glaring difference between Emma and Miranda is Emma is a bonafide femme fatale, but other than that, their characterisations are pretty similar. As I mentioned before, a friend of mine clinched my interest in ME2 with that character analogy.
As an aside: I do find it interesting that most of the prominent biotics in the ME universe seem to be women. Someone brought up the archetype about how in fantasy, men are usually the warriors, with women mostly being mages. I found that similar in the sense of how in the Marvelverse, most of the telepaths are women as well.

This is true in the Marvelverse, but there are exceptions in other comics. Supergirl and Power Girl immediately come to mind, as does Red Sonja (a female character so skilled that even Conan, the "face" of that universe can't beat her).

Of course there are exceptions. It's a tendency, not an absolute rule. Most characters follow that pattern, not all.

As for ME biotics, I don't think we can count the asari as "female", even though they appear female. If we're only counting prominent non-asari biotics, Kaidan and Wrex are male (Jacob and Thane are too, but they're generally not thought of as powerhouses) and Miranda and Jack are female. Miranda and Jack are probably more powerful than their male counterparts, but I think this is coincidence rather than design.

It is neither coincidence nor design. It's just that because of the archetypes, a woman with strong biotic/magical powers is more likely to pop up as an idea in a writer's mind than a man. 
As for the asari: the archetypes work for the asari because they look like women and act like women. People respond to them as if they were women. For that reason, they count. Their "true" biology is hidden from us and cannot overrule the impression of our senses.

It would be interesting to find out more about the science behind creating human biotics though. Maybe female physiology lends itself more readily to biotics than male physiology? There are differences between human males and females that could have an effect on their ability to use biotics. For example, there have been a number of studies that suggest that men and women experience and react to pain in very different ways. I could see something like this possibly giving an advantage to one sex or the other when utilizing biotics.

That would be a way of anchoring the archetypes within the ME universe as a fact. The question is: do we want that? So far, we could put it all off to coindicence, even though a statistical analysis would probably show it isn't. Once a gender difference is fixed, we'll have to live with it. IMO we don't need more gender differences.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2010 - 06:41 .

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Of course there are exceptions. It's a tendency, not an absolute rule. Most characters follow that pattern, not all.

Hmm, I'm not a hardcore comic book reader, but now that I think about it, I'm not so sure female comic book heroes and villains are pushed towards the "caster" archetype any more than their male counterparts, even in the Marvelverse. Emma Frost and Jean Gray definitely fall into the "caster" archetype, but then again so does Professor X. Characters like Cyclops and Iceman could also be considered "casters", depending on your definition. On the other end of the spectrum, She-Hulk clearly falls into the "fighter" archetype. Outside of the Marvelverse, Wonder Woman also clearly classified as a "fighter". In a less well-known series that I'm reading now, The Boys, the most powerful fighter on the team is female.

It is neither coincidence nor design. It's just that because of the archetypes, a woman with strong biotic/magical powers is more likely to pop up as an idea in a writer's mind than a man. 
As for the asari: the archetypes work for the asari because they look like women and act like women. People respond to them as if they were women. For that reason, they count. Their "true" biology is hidden from us and cannot overrule the impression of our senses.

I write off the asari because they're designed to be a biotically-strong race as a whole, so the tendency for all the "female" asari to be powerful biotics is already accounted for by an in-game explanation. Also many of the asari tend to be tough opponents with powerful short range attacks (like Vasir) and shotguns (like Enyala), which to me puts them in the "fighter" archetype just as much as the "caster" archetype. They don't really fit the popular conception of females automatically being the "weaker" sex.

That just made me think of something. How physically powerful and athletic is Miranda? She's never been in the military and her specialty isn't frontline combat, but compared to the average male soldier, how would Miranda stack up? Note that I'm not asking if she could defeat him, but rather whether she would be stronger and faster.

Edit: I guess it would be more accurate to ask "How much stronger and faster?" rather than "Is she stronger and faster?".

Modifié par fongiel24, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Aedan1992]

Physically was she desigend to have an edge over the standard human.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
That just made me think of something. How physically powerful and athletic is Miranda? She's never been in the military and her specialty isn't frontline combat, but compared to the average male soldier, how would Miranda stack up? Note that I'm not asking if she could defeat him, but rather whether she would be stronger and faster.

She would be faster, but possibly not stronger. In the first conversation with Shepard on the Normandy, she mentions her reflexes and strength are enhanced. But to be as strong than a trained soldier, there would have to more muscle mass, and you would see that. She also wouldn't look as attractive.

@Aedan:
A trained soldier is not a standard human.

As for other topic, since we have no dependable statistics and everything is just anecdotal evidence, I don't think it's possible to make a conclusive statement. But I do think the archetypes have an influence on how characters are made, perhaps even on purpose. The ME games - particularly ME2 - are extremely trope-heavy, and many character tropes are based on archetypes. Consider this: there is *no* adept-like male team member in both games, while there are three females of the type: Samara, Jack and Liara. As for asari not being female: asari were specifically designed to be blue-skinned space babes, so please don't re-hash that argument or I'll put you into a box with Casey Hudson.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:38 .

[Aedan1992]

@Ieldra i agree. I think if she would engage in physical combat with shepard he would be stronger but she will definatly be faster. Another thing that fit each other. Shepard has reach but she has flexibility. So to speak.

[Elyvern]

@Arijharn - Emma's wardrobe has improved over the years. Apart from her obvious set up as a femme fatale, it was because she was primarily a telepath and doesn't get into real combat much. That corset thing was always, I felt, cheesy throwbacks of what the general impression of a seductress was in 70-80s. Didn't help that it became so iconic for the character either.

fongiel24 wrote...

This is true in the Marvelverse, but there are exceptions in other comics. Supergirl and Power Girl immediately come to mind, as does Red Sonja (a female character so skilled that even Conan, the "face" of that universe can't beat her).

This is because we're talking just about the front rank female characters. Also keep in mind that Xavier was created explicitly wheelchair-bounded and an inversion of that archetype. Other than that, I could dig all day to substantiate my point from the list of all the mutants, avengers cast members, but that would be...well, beside the point in this thread, heh.

As for ME biotics, I don't think we can count the asari as "female", even though they appear female. If we're only counting prominent non-asari biotics, Kaidan and Wrex are male (Jacob and Thane are too, but they're generally not thought of as powerhouses) and Miranda and Jack are female. Miranda and Jack are probably more powerful than their male counterparts, but I think this is coincidence rather than design.

It would be interesting to find out more about the science behind creating human biotics though. Maybe female physiology lends itself more readily to biotics than male physiology? There are differences between human males and females that could have an effect on their ability to use biotics. For example, there have been a number of studies that suggest that men and women experience and react to pain in very different ways. I could see something like this possibly giving an advantage to one sex or the other when utilizing biotics.

I'm with Ieldra in that you cannot discount the preconceptions writers had in mind when they design the Asari to be blue babes. But to play Devil's advocate, there is scientific evidence that women generally have higher pain-thresholds than men because of child-birth. In a starvation/attrition scenario, given that both subjects are the same, a woman's higher fat content and slightly higher water content means she is likely to survive longer as well. How this coincides with biotics is a little tricky, because it would obviously only apply to human females. Although if pain and trauma is one of the ways to trigger biotic powers in humans that may apply in higher success rates with more female subjects emerging alive and functional at the end.

Modifié par Elyvern, 03 octobre 2010 - 10:41 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...
That just made me think of something. How physically powerful and athletic is Miranda? She's never been in the military and her specialty isn't frontline combat, but compared to the average male soldier, how would Miranda stack up? Note that I'm not asking if she could defeat him, but rather whether she would be stronger and faster.

She would be faster, but possibly not stronger. In the first conversation with Shepard on the Normandy, she mentions her reflexes and strength are enhanced. But to be as strong than a trained soldier, there would have to more muscle mass, and you would see that. She also wouldn't look as attractive.

@Aedan:
A trained soldier is not a standard human.

Not to mention that the many of the military types seem compelled to make a commitment to enhance themselves by artificial means for additional edge in combat, although likely not to the extent that Shepard does. I always cringe when I pile on muscle and skin weave enhancements on Shepard, and I keep thinking the way maleshep keeps flexing his right arm is because the joints and tendons are in the danger of tearing off from his use of abusive, non-human compatible weapons like the krogan shotgun or the widow rifle. If Shepard survives the Reapers, he is definitely going to have to deal with the long term repercussions of over-enhancing his physical body for short-term combat performance.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for other topic, since we have no dependable statistics and everything is just anecdotal evidence, I don't think it's possible to make a conclusive statement. But I do think the archetypes have an influence on how characters are made, perhaps even on purpose. The ME games - particularly ME2 - are extremely trope-heavy, and many character tropes are based on archetypes. Consider this: there is *no* adept-like male team member in both games, while there are three females of the type: Samara, Jack and Liara. As for asari not being female: asari were specifically designed to be blue-skinned space babes, so please don't re-hash that argument or I'll put you into a box with Casey Hudson.

I always thought Kaidan was more adept-like than either Jack or Samara. 

I've always been suspicious of Bioware's intentions for designing the asari the way they did as well, but I guess I just want to give them the benefit of the doubt and pretend they were just trying to be original and not creating an entire race of Ms. Blue Fanservice aliens.

In any case, it's not really worth arguing since I don't feel all that strongly about whether ME abides by gender-stereotypes regarding fictional character archetypes. I just felt like playing devil's advocate for conversation's sake (it gets boring in this thread when everyone agrees ).

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

Not to mention that the many of the military types seem compelled to make a commitment to enhance themselves by artificial means for additional edge in combat, although likely not to the extent that Shepard does. I always cringe when I pile on muscle and skin weave enhancements on Shepard, and I keep thinking the way maleshep keeps flexing his right arm is because the joints and tendons are in the danger of tearing off from his use of abusive, non-human compatible weapons like the krogan shotgun or the widow rifle. If Shepard survives the Reapers, he is definitely going to have to deal with the long term repercussions of over-enhancing his physical body for short-term combat performance.

I wonder if Miranda might have similar enhancements. She obviously takes her job very seriously and if Cerberus had the technology to artificially augment her body so that she'd be stronger and more durable, I think she'd take it. Her enhanced healing abilities might also mean her body could survive more enhancements, kind of like a Wolverine-lite. If Miranda's muscles are enhanced in some way, it might make her physically stronger than most human males without adding much bulk. 

I doubt she could get in a fistfight with post-Lazarus Shepard and win, but put up against almost anyone else on the Normandy my money would be on her.

[Aedan1992]

How stronger do you think shepard has become after lazerus? I know he can headbutt a krogan without pain.

[fongiel24]

Aedan1992 wrote...

How stronger do you think shepard has become after lazerus? I know he can headbutt a krogan without pain.

I'm pretty sure Shepard felt pain there. He kind of wobbles around for a second like a boxer would after taking a good shot. That's one of the stupidest interrupts in the game IMO. What did Shepard think would happen when he decided to headbutt an alien twice his size?

I think the degree to which Shepard has been enhanced depends on what Miranda meant by "bio-synthetic fusion". If she's just talking about minor augmentations to replace what couldn't be fixed, Shepard might not be any stronger than he was pre-Lazarus. If Miranda is talking about extensive cybernetics, Shepard could be borderline superhuman. Given that Shepard can have the experimental technology (skin weave, stronger bones, etc.) on the Normandy applied to his body without extensive surgery and recovery time however, I suspect Miranda was forced to lean more towards the "synthetic" side of her "bio-synthetic fusion" in rebuilding him during the Lazarus Project. He's probably not superhuman, but my guess is that he's probably going to perform 10-20% better than an elite athlete in activities that require raw strength and power.

[philiposophy]

Shepard might have seen Wrex headbutt Uvenk by that point, so s/he might believe it to be within krogan etiquette. At least, in such a case it's not completely out of the blue.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Not to mention that the many of the military types seem compelled to make a commitment to enhance themselves by artificial means for additional edge in combat, although likely not to the extent that Shepard does. I always cringe when I pile on muscle and skin weave enhancements on Shepard, and I keep thinking the way maleshep keeps flexing his right arm is because the joints and tendons are in the danger of tearing off from his use of abusive, non-human compatible weapons like the krogan shotgun or the widow rifle. If Shepard survives the Reapers, he is definitely going to have to deal with the long term repercussions of over-enhancing his physical body for short-term combat performance.

I wonder if Miranda might have similar enhancements. She obviously takes her job very seriously and if Cerberus had the technology to artificially augment her body so that she'd be stronger and more durable, I think she'd take it. Her enhanced healing abilities might also mean her body could survive more enhancements, kind of like a Wolverine-lite. If Miranda's muscles are enhanced in some way, it might make her physically stronger than most human males without adding much bulk. 

I doubt she could get in a fistfight with post-Lazarus Shepard and win, but put up against almost anyone else on the Normandy my money would be on her.

I agree with you about playing devil's advocate even though I may not strongly feel about the subject because wholesale agreements would make for a very boring thread.

My personal opinion is if she finds herself on the frontlines on a long-term basis, then yes, she would for the sake of survival. But like you said it could be in the form of augmentation that doesn't require her to put on additional muscle mass. Again, synthetic muscle weaves like Shepard's kind may suffice. Granted this puts a cap as to how strong she can be without additional muscles as foundation to apply the technology on, but she must recognise the fact that she wouldn't always be a combat soldier, and it is in her interest not to over-augment so she can keep her current body for other uses (spy work, undercover work).

In terms of brute strength, Miranda will always be weaker against a similarly augmented male counterpart, and we haven't even add races like krogan into the equation. Her greatest strength would probably be her reflexes, combat skills and biotic abilities.

In-game, I don't think she would be augmented because the most combat she's seen in her line of work prior to ME2 was probably the occasional shoot out, or when she has to kill tactically for infiltration work. In either case, her genetic enhancements would be enough for the job. If you go through the Lazarus station  files carefully, you'll realise that intially, Cerberus didn't want to use cybernetics to re-create Shepard either, but time was of the essence. For many people, replacing organic parts with synthetics past a certain point would usually raise identity issues about their humanity. And personally, I found it very galling that Shepard never utters a peep about it. For someone like Miranda, who already has issues about her own humanity, I'd imagine it'd be even more conflicting for her.

[Aedan1992]

fongiel24 wrote...

I think the degree to which Shepard has been enhanced depends on what Miranda meant by "bio-synthetic fusion". If she's just talking about minor augmentations to replace what couldn't be fixed, Shepard might not be any stronger than he was pre-Lazarus. If Miranda is talking about extensive cybernetics, Shepard could be borderline superhuman. Given that Shepard can have the experimental technology (skin weave, stronger bones, etc.) on the Normandy applied to his body without extensive surgery and recovery time however, I suspect Miranda was forced to lean more towards the "synthetic" side of her "bio-synthetic fusion" in rebuilding him during the Lazarus Project. He's probably not superhuman, but my guess is that he's probably going to perform 10-20% better than an elite athlete in activities that require raw strength and power.

Yes i have read that somewere. If i can remember it was somethink like TIM wanted miranda to improve his physics but not to powerfull because he thought that it would be to dangerous. I don't if this is the true story behind it but it was something like.

[Aedan1992]

Elyvern wrote...

In-game, I don't think she would be augmented because the most combat she's seen in her line of work prior to ME2 was probably the occasional shoot out, or when she has to kill tactically for infiltration work. In either case, her genetic enhancements would be enough for the job. If you go through the Lazarus station  files carefully, you'll realise that intially, Cerberus didn't want to use cybernetics to re-create Shepard either, but time was of the essence. For many people, replacing organic parts with synthetics past a certain point would usually raise identity issues about their humanity. And personally, I found it very galling that Shepard never utters a peep about it. For someone like Miranda, who already has issues about her own humanity, I'd imagine it'd be even more conflicting for her.

I didn't really understand you statement. Are you saying that miranda found it difficult that she had to replace his organic parts with cybernatics? Please correct me if i'm wrong.

[Elyvern]

Her orders were to bring Shepard back alive as he was. In the strictest sense, I'd interpret that as keeping whichever parts were originally organic organic. Except it was suggested that it took too much time. I don't have the exact phrasing here, but you can start a new game and go click on all those research files to find out.

Do note that we never did get an explanation from TIM why it was neccessary to do so either. But I'd imagine that changing him physically would likely have an effect of changing him psychologically as well (ie. making him take more risks if he thinks he's super human, make him less sympathetic to ordinary humans because he's a cyborg, creating identity crisises, etc and etc.)

Modifié par Elyvern, 03 octobre 2010 - 11:48 .

[Arijharn]

They kept him as close to 'original spec' as possible, but if you remember at the start Shephard's body pretty much suffered as much catastrophic damage as one could and still be barely recognised as a body.



I think bio-synthetic fusion was encouraged to speed up the healing progress, and perhaps like stitches would eventually disintegrate within the body itself, although it probably had a lot of metallic reinforcement to clamp things like a shattered thigh etc. Although, I'm guessing this isn't quite right as well (although I'm not sure which or how much) because the body was clearly designed to have technological innovations incorporated like the many tech upgrades you encounter during the game such as Heavy Skin Weave and Medi-Gel injectors et al.



Like Jacob says: "You're still you, you just might have a little bit extra bits and pieces."

[Axestone]

This is fan-art (without flag of Canada) or a fragment of a screenshot from any scene?

[Ieldra]

That's part of a screenshot - the scene with Miranda saluting is in the game.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's part of a screenshot - the scene with Miranda saluting is in the game.

The scene where she does that salute is just before you jump through the relay and she comes up and talks to Shep discussing how things are all set and how she is surprised by what Shepard has accomplished. It's made a bit more funny if you are in a romance with her, as you get this scene, then seconds later you get the romance scene. Which of course starts with Shep leaving the CIC to go to the lift and Miranda is already inside the lift.

The one thing that still irks me about the romance scene is how in the romance scene at the start of it she can be wearing her alt outfit and yet in the end of the scene in engineering she is in the standard outfit. I don't think the outfits are that different for them to have been able to add an 'alt outfit stripping' model.

If there is one thing I would love to see in one of the 'bridging' DLCs it is the option to confirm whether you are staying with Cerberus or not. I've not played LotSB yet (PC dead at moment ) but know some people were a bit niggled by how can have people talking as if still with them even if pretty much had told TIM to get lost at end of the Suicide Mission. But I also know there are some of us that would like to see the option to further cement our ties with Cerberus. So I really do hope that they allow this and naturally if they did it will be interesting to see how it plays out for both Jacob and Miranda.

[jtav]

I doubt Miranda has had her strength artificially enhanced beyond what her genes have given her. She doesn't need tremendous brute strength, and she's already above average. I imagine any implants she had would be targeted towards improving her speed, reaction time, endurance, etc. I'm trying to decide whether those would be more or less likely than something that improved brain function. A greybox would be enormously useful in her line of work.