15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong, please note that Miranda is not a super-soldier, she is a super-spy. Her character concept is also centered on her genetic enhancements, giving her cybernetic combat enhancements like Shepard's absolutely violates that concept in two ways. I stick to my reasoning from above and say she doesn't have any cybernetic enhancements except those explicitly mentioned.

Jebel Krong wrote...
cybernetic/biological enhancements would be almost identical at the microscopic/nanotech level - the skin upgrades in me2 are evidence of this, and are really just logical extensions of already-existing biological mechanisms. once you've started down that road, and overcome the mental resistance to the idea, then it would become ubiquitous.

That is pure speculation. I can as easily say that people are extremely careful with self-building nanotech structures within the body because the nanites need a minimum of intelligence, which means they are vulnerable to outside influences like hacking.

Miranda has bioamps already, any other upgrades would probably be less invasive than those, so she would have no fear of them or anyone about losing their identity.

You overlook that the psychological effects of cybernetics would be cumulative. One synthetic bit more means one bit less humanity. As opposed to the effects of genetic engineering, implants remain foreign objects. Also, while the bone enhancement would likely be unproblematic, being strictly passive, I would count any enhancement that changes my complete skin and all muscles in my body as *extremely* invasive. I don't recall in which cyberpunk rpg I've met the concept, but those two would significantly lower your humanity score, definitely more than a bio-amp and greybox together.

as with all classes, the default class-upgrades are clearly internalised.

Infiltrator abilities are realized through the omni-tool. The only thing the description says that the cloaking ability is unique to the class. A character class is an artificial game construct and not something that really exists in the game world except as maybe representing a career path. There is absolutely no indication that an Infiltrator's powers are not based on a special property added to the omni-tool like it was in ME1. Which would, btw, be much more plausible *and* consistent. I count only those abilities as internal which cannot be explained any other way or which are explicitly mentioned as being internal.

I might add that I find it disturbing how you insist on turning Miranda into a half-synthetic. I have rarely seen anything in the Miranda threads that I think goes so much against her character concept (the trolls don't count).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 octobre 2010 - 12:43 .

[Jebel Krong]

i never said that miranda had (or was suited) to shepard's own upgrades, i was merely using those in-game examples as an example of things that are relatively well-known within the game universe.

i have no idea where you get the idea that any cybernetic upgrade decreases the person's humanity in any way - perhaps if you had a cybernetic brain, that would be true, otherwise how would skin (etc.) enhancements do that? the psychological effect is also not cumulative - again how do you figure that? i think you are getting your fictions messed up.

i never said miranda was a half synthetic, but i wouldn't preclude certain augmentations common to her operative or even scientific fields, either. for a start, obviously an omni-tool is one. a better question is perhaps thus: why are you so against the possibility of any cybernetic augmentation to go along with biological ones - mordin clearly has very overt ones - is he less salarian (and he's a closer analogue to Miranda than Shepard)?

btw i never read anything that said infiltrator abilities are realised through an omni-tool, for that matter, i'd be interested to see the source for that as the diagrams for each class at the beginning fo the game clearly point out the regions modified for that class.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 04 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
i have no idea where you get the idea that any cybernetic upgrade decreases the person's humanity in any way - perhaps if you had a cybernetic brain, that would be true, otherwise how would skin (etc.) enhancements do that? the psychological effect is also not cumulative - again how do you figure that? i think you are getting your fictions messed up.

What I was saying is that if you are generally wary of cybernetic enhancements and think they remove you further  from normal humanity - as I think would be the case with Miranda - then anything added will make you more uncomfortable. Having one big augmentation will not make a smaller one appear insignificant.

i never said miranda was a half synthetic, but i wouldn't preclude certain augmentations common to her operative or even scientific fields, either. for a start, obviously an omni-tool is one.

An omnitool is a piece of equipment, not a cybernetic implant. Or has that been retconned since ME1?

a better question is perhaps thus: why are you so against the possibility of any cybernetic augmentation to go along with biological ones - mordin clearly has very overt ones - is he less salarian (and he's a closer analogue to Miranda than Shepard)?

Does he? I never realized. As for why I'm against it, it's strange to admit it, but I don't know. I think it's seriously creepy. Too useful to ignore, unfortunately, but creepy nonetheless. For instance, I imagine touching augmented skin and noticing it's unnaturally hard because of that damage resistance implant *shudder*. You can imagine where that would make my imagination go regarding the romance.

btw i never read anything that said infiltrator abilities are realised through an omni-tool, for that matter, i'd be interested to see the source for that as the diagrams for each class at the beginning fo the game clearly point out the regions modified for that class.

That's something I got from ME1, I don't recall exactly where. I'll try to find it again. Also, I've never paid attention to the class diagram, I always assumed that it was just meant to be a cool graphic you could interpret as having remotely something to do with the class.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 octobre 2010 - 02:21 .

[Jebel Krong]

mordin has artificial hands.... don't tell me you never noticed that!? omni-tools are equipment, yes, but they are obviously sub-dermal implants - hence the hologram forming around the hand/wrist area... at least that's how it looks (it could be in shepard's armour, but other characters are shown without and still wielding them.



as i previously stated - the skin implants would be too small for you to notice them (you can see a picture of them when you research the upgrades for shepard - they are microscopic) - it's not like they turn your skin into metal. the whole idea is that they integrate and enhance what is already there - we can already do it in modern science, so a jump like shown in Mass Effect isn't too great at all (i just read a paper last week regarding synthetic fibres that can not only integrate in muscle but also with nerves as well, if i can find it again i'll link it).

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 04 octobre 2010 - 02:51 .

[jtav]

My this is an interesting discussion. I believe Miranda has some implants. A bio-amp is canon, and the timeline necessitates that she's an artificial biotic. Beyond that, we're free to speculate. I tend to agree with Ieldra. She already has problems perceiving herself as human, and additional synthetic parts would only add to that. Not a fear I share, but I think it would be very real for her. I can see her continuing to use gloves to operate a computer despite the implants saving her time because of that anxiety. And if her biotic ability is artificial, she might be doubly resistant because implants are something she would associate with him and his disregard for her life in pursuit of "perfection." For myself, I'm giving her a greybox installed by her father. I don't think it makes her less human, but Miranda sometimes wonders.

[Jebel Krong]

changing the subject entirely, i was thinking about the fanart posted the other day, in which Miranda looks older than she does normally, got me thinking about Blur's trailer, where she also looks a bit older (but no less beautiful - on the contrary):

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 04 octobre 2010 - 03:20 .

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
mordin has artificial hands.... don't tell me you never noticed that!? omni-tools are equipment, yes, but they are obviously sub-dermal implants - hence the hologram forming around the hand/wrist area... at least that's how it looks (it could be in shepard's armour, but other characters are shown without and still wielding them.

No, that's not at all obvious. In ME1, you can just hand an omnitool over. It happens in one dialogue scene, so it's not a gameplay artifact. That's why I assume it's completely external. I'm not the only one thinking that, as this fan art shows:

as i previously stated - the skin implants would be too small for you to notice them (you can see a picture of them when you research the upgrades for shepard - they are microscopic) - it's not like they turn your skin into metal. the whole idea is that they integrate and enhance what is already there - we can already do it in modern science, so a jump like shown in Mass Effect isn't too great at all (i just read a paper last week regarding synthetic fibres that can not only integrate in muscle but also with nerves as well, if i can find it again i'll link it).

The single strands would be invisible, yes, but wouldn't the skin texture *have* to change in order to be more damage-resistant? It's specifically that sort of military-type implant I can't envision as not being noticeable I don't like. I'm OK with the bio-amp and the greybox, but I still think Miranda would prefer not to add more. She definitely wouldn't add anything noticeable, because that would make undercover work more difficult.

Edit:
Hard as it is to believe, I never consciously noticed Mordin's hands. Aliens are, well, alien. Nothing to notice there.

Edit2:
Somewhere in ME1 it's said that all tech abilities are realized through the omni-tool.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 octobre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Aedan1992]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Damm they should make miri wear this outfit. 

[Elyvern]

Damn, a day gone and this thread keeps going to places.

I'm with Ieldra here in that I'm a firm believer that too much cybernetics does detract from a person's humanity, be it in terms of self or social perceptions or even the ability to execute physical acts of superhuman abilities. Both biological and synthetic enhancements serve to push the envelope of human abilities to the extreme ends, and well, honestly our limits are what defines us, regardless of how positive or negative you perceive that to be. In a universe populated by aliens, it becomes even more important what those limits are, because a salarian is as different as a human as a krogan is.

The issue is there is general agreement as to what is baseline for human performance, and when you go past those baselines, it puts you outside of the rest and you become a class of your own. Miranda's character concept explicitly posits her as exceeding those limits via biological means, and you can argue that Shepard exceeds them via synthetic means. Both *should* lead either party to begin to feel the differences between themselves and ordinary humans. more so if they intentionally extend those limits grossly by conscious acts. Comparing soldiers being augmented to Miranda is a bad comparison, because you must first assume those soldiers are already genetically altered and thus already stand beyond the normal parameters of human limits to be applicable. And Miranda is already in a conflicted position regarding her outsider status. To push pass that envelope via conscious acts would require great practical need, which I really don't think can be justified in game (combat primarily involves guns, brute strength would only serve for isolated incidents). The end result is she'll feel she stands even further away from the rest of humanity, not to mention how it would seriously dilute her character concept as a symbol for biological transhumanism in the ME universe.  

Personally, I love cyberpunk and the Ghost in the Shell TV series (more so than the movies) really took the modification of human bodies to the extreme, coupled with fantastic extrapolations of it, but the overwhelming impression I get apart from the cool-ness factor is it is sublimally horrifying.

Modifié par Elyvern, 04 octobre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Elyvern]

Jebel Krong wrote...

changing the subject entirely, i was thinking about the fanart posted the other day, in which Miranda looks older than she does normally, got me thinking about Blur's trailer, where she also looks a bit older (but no less beautiful - on the contrary):

Nice screen shot, although I really don't get why she looks so different here either. I mean, why, why? Why does Miranda look so different in-game to the CGI trailer to Strahovski!? There are like 3 versions of her running around (if you don't count Galaxy & Redemption).

[jtav]

I've finally got around to downloading Overlord and am now wondering what choice Miranda would have made had she been in Shepard's shoes? My first instinct is that she would have blown Archer's head off, freed David, and kept the research for later use. She takes protecting her own sibling seriously, so she might regard Archer as the worst kind of scum. On the other hand, if Legion hasn't been recruited, as far as anyone knows, the geth as a whole are still Reaper servants and controlling them would be extremely useful. And she knows it.

[Ieldra]

Aedan1992 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Damm they should make miri wear this outfit. 

I really like it as well. It has appeared first in the alternate appearance suggestions thread (long closed now), so it's not altogether out of the question that we'll get something like it.
This image is also what I have in mind when I write about 16-year-old Miranda. Minus the strange eyeshadow

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 octobre 2010 - 08:40 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I've finally got around to downloading Overlord and am now wondering what choice Miranda would have made had she been in Shepard's shoes? My first instinct is that she would have blown Archer's head off, freed David, and kept the research for later use. She takes protecting her own sibling seriously, so she might regard Archer as the worst kind of scum. On the other hand, if Legion hasn't been recruited, as far as anyone knows, the geth as a whole are still Reaper servants and controlling them would be extremely useful. And she knows it.

I think it may well depend on whether Legion's loyalty mission is finished or not. If not, then I can see her give in to perceived necessity even though it pains her to do so. As I understand it (it's some time since I played Overlord), David will be removed from that horrific contraption in either case.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 octobre 2010 - 08:49 .

[fongiel24]

IMO, Miranda's emotional side would be telling her to blow away Jonathan and send David to the Grissom Academy, but her pragmatic, reasoning side would demand that David's abilities at least be explored. Unfortunately for David, Miranda is a creature ruled by reason rather than emotion. I think Miranda keeps David with Cerberus but demands that safeguards for his safety and comfort (as much comfort as you could give an autistic being experimented on:crying:) be put in place. She might even concoct the safeguards herself and require that Jonathan send her updates on David's condition after the suicide mission. 

I don't think Legion's loyalty mission would make a difference here either. Legion may allow Miranda to understand the geth better, but I think she's still deeply suspicious of them and their intentions, as evidenced by her comments on the heretic station - "Legion's geth could still become a threat".

Regarding the cybernetics discussion, I don't think Miranda would get anything that would make her appear or feel less human externally (which rules out the skin weave) but some degree of internal muscle and skeletal enhancement would have their uses, even for a spy. It wouldn't be nearly as much as what human commandos get, but it would be enough so she could squeeze out just a bit more strength in a fight or maybe survive falling a few more feet without shattering a bone. She might not be a true frontline operative, but she also doesn't seem like a true spy either (when I say "spy" I'm talking Richard Sorge, not James Bond), meaning she does have to engage the enemy on disadvantageous terms on occasion.

Modifié par fongiel24, 04 octobre 2010 - 09:14 .

[Caihn]

Miranda would react the same way she reacts during the suicide mission : with her emotions. She would not allowed this to continue. She can't be pragmatic when things go too far against human ethic.
She's against torture, and she would not think that it is worth it.

Modifié par Yannkee, 04 octobre 2010 - 09:22 .

[Arijharn]

I don't see how having implants or whatever makes you less human than naturally. Is a person with a pacemaker less human? If a person has a bionic eye are they less human? Is a person who relies on a cane to manoeuvre less human than one who can't? Or is one's humanity depended on someone's willingness to have these things done to them?



I think humanity has more to do with who you are and how you think (your 'soul' maybe) rather than if you're aided by mechanical devices.



As is, I don't think Miranda has any implants short of those needed to utilize her biotics, because what's the point of being genetically engineered for perfection if she isn't well, as perfect as she can realistically be? (Think along the lines of how her father might think as he's 'putting her together')



If she's stronger than most humans, if she is likely to live 'half again as a normal human' then I would see that as perhaps improved and 'efficient' growing of muscle fibres or etc rather than a machine or device that does so instead.

[Axestone]

Miranda would react the same way she reacts during the suicide mission : with her emotions. She would not allowed this to continue. She can't be pragmatic when things go too far against human ethic.

She's against torture, and she would not think that it is worth it.

I agree. Miranda is most sensible and appropriate character. Tortures - an incorrect way. And she is ready to defend the opinion.

[Arijharn]

I think she'd put David back into Overlord personally... although she'd be no less indignant than Shephard about how much this cost her (ie. pistol whipping Dr. Archer)

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

I don't see how having implants or whatever makes you less human than naturally. Is a person with a pacemaker less human? If a person has a bionic eye are they less human? Is a person who relies on a cane to manoeuvre less human than one who can't? Or is one's humanity depended on someone's willingness to have these things done to them?

I think humanity has more to do with who you are and how you think (your 'soul' maybe) rather than if you're aided by mechanical devices.

The problem here is cumulative effect. What if it's not just a bionic eye? What if it's your braincase being installed in a metal body? Can you say you're still human when in all appearances, you're a robot? Even if you can argue that you remain human, wouldn't you have self doubts, a conflict of identity? And the issue of synthetic enhancements is a slippery slope. Why stop at bionic eyes? Why stop at skin weaves? Why not replace organs wholesale with cybernetics?  

As is, I don't think Miranda has any implants short of those needed to utilize her biotics, because what's the point of being genetically engineered for perfection if she isn't well, as perfect as she can realistically be? (Think along the lines of how her father might think as he's 'putting her together')

If she's stronger than most humans, if she is likely to live 'half again as a normal human' then I would see that as perhaps improved and 'efficient' growing of muscle fibres or etc rather than a machine or device that does so instead.

Which is perfectly in keeping with her in-game character concept, I agree.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

I've finally got around to downloading Overlord and am now wondering what choice Miranda would have made had she been in Shepard's shoes? My first instinct is that she would have blown Archer's head off, freed David, and kept the research for later use. She takes protecting her own sibling seriously, so she might regard Archer as the worst kind of scum. On the other hand, if Legion hasn't been recruited, as far as anyone knows, the geth as a whole are still Reaper servants and controlling them would be extremely useful. And she knows it.

Despite the fact that there is similarities in that she has a sibling as well, I think she's emotionally distant enough not to confuse the basic issue--David is probably the only human that can communicate with the geth. Understanding the geth as a prelude to defeating them and thus ridding the reapers of a potential ally will probably override any emotional or psychological reservations she has. She'd probably be able to come up with better ways to untilise David's gift though, and acknowledge that leaving him in that tortured existence will probably undermine the results they'd get. So for better or for worse, she would establish a more comfortable environment for David but nonetheless keep him at hand for Archer's original purpose.

[Arijharn]

Elyvern wrote...
The problem here is cumulative effect. What if it's not just a bionic eye? What if it's your braincase being installed in a metal body? Can you say you're still human when in all appearances, you're a robot? Even if you can argue that you remain human, wouldn't you have self doubts, a conflict of identity? And the issue of synthetic enhancements is a slippery slope. Why stop at bionic eyes? Why stop at skin weaves? Why not replace organs wholesale with cybernetics? 

People have doubts about their appearances all the time regardless (Is my bum too big? My nose is too crooked. I really should loose these love handles). I tend to think along the lines as to whether someone's human or not is whether their mind has been manufactured (and even then that may not be an efficient model of which to judge). Frankly though, if a person wishes to identify themselves as human, who am I to interfere? I don't think I personally loose anything if they do.

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
The problem here is cumulative effect. What if it's not just a bionic eye? What if it's your braincase being installed in a metal body? Can you say you're still human when in all appearances, you're a robot? Even if you can argue that you remain human, wouldn't you have self doubts, a conflict of identity? And the issue of synthetic enhancements is a slippery slope. Why stop at bionic eyes? Why stop at skin weaves? Why not replace organs wholesale with cybernetics? 

People have doubts about their appearances all the time regardless (Is my bum too big? My nose is too crooked. I really should loose these love handles). I tend to think along the lines as to whether someone's human or not is whether their mind has been manufactured (and even then that may not be an efficient model of which to judge). Frankly though, if a person wishes to identify themselves as human, who am I to interfere? I don't think I personally loose anything if they do.

Judging inadequacies about their natural looks does not make a person question about their humanity, however. It wouldn't detract from a person's self-identity unless that person is suffering from delusions of grandeur and thinks he's Sean Connery and therefore his crooked nose is out of place. And while you may be more accepting of what defines a human, there are also many people who may subscribe to a stricter view of what constitutes as human, hence the possibility that synthetic replacements will raise that question.  

[Arijharn]

Elyvern wrote...
Judging inadequacies about their natural looks does not make a person question about their humanity, however.

True, but your argument is just as speculative I feel.

Elyvern wrote...
while you may be more accepting of what defines a human, there are also many people who may subscribe to a stricter view of what constitutes as human, hence the possibility that synthetic replacements will raise that question.  

I'm sorry, I thought this entire point was merely us presenting our personal opinion on the matter. I recognise that people feel strongly that it would make them 'less human' whereas I'm of the opinion (in equal fervour) that it doesn't matter, and merely wanted my position to be known.

[Elyvern]

double post

Modifié par Elyvern, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:42 .

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
Judging inadequacies about their natural looks does not make a person question about their humanity, however.

True, but your argument is just as speculative I feel.

Elyvern wrote...
while you may be more accepting of what defines a human, there are also many people who may subscribe to a stricter view of what constitutes as human, hence the possibility that synthetic replacements will raise that question.  

I'm sorry, I thought this entire point was merely us presenting our personal opinion on the matter. I recognise that people feel strongly that it would make them 'less human' whereas I'm of the opinion (in equal fervour) that it doesn't matter, and merely wanted my position to be known.

Heh, naturally. Because strictly speaking, what constitutes as the essence of humanity cannot be quantified. So in effect, all we're arguing is points of view.

Modifié par Elyvern, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:42 .