15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

You're like me aren't you Elyvern? Nurse-maiding this thread!

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

You're like me aren't you Elyvern? Nurse-maiding this thread!

Was I that obvious?  But my point still stands, I'd hold that Miranda will be conflicted by synthetic upgrades because she already has reservations about her humanity via her biological enchancements. The seeds of doubt have already been sowed. Dun-dun-dun-dun....

[Arijharn]

I think any 'artificial' means would cause her some problems, simply because of how she was brought up and what she has been 'trained' to believe etc, which is why I like her infertility story as it's currently a biological limitation to her otherwise exemplar biology.



If we are to presume that it's currently inoperable even with the advances of ME medical practices, then it seems to be rather biting to her on a personal level, a personal affront even.



I'm not a woman, so honestly I have no idea, but isn't there a sense of pride/enjoyment of being able to carry a child to term (other than the aches and pains and of course labour...)? If Miranda can't do that, and with say Shephard's child, then I would imagine that she would be absolutely conflicted if she can't have them naturally (if she's interested). Just because someone lives longer in the ME universe, it doesn't necessarily mean that their biological clocks are set back by 10 years.

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

I think any 'artificial' means would cause her some problems, simply because of how she was brought up and what she has been 'trained' to believe etc, which is why I like her infertility story as it's currently a biological limitation to her otherwise exemplar biology.

If we are to presume that it's currently inoperable even with the advances of ME medical practices, then it seems to be rather biting to her on a personal level, a personal affront even.

I'm not a woman, so honestly I have no idea, but isn't there a sense of pride/enjoyment of being able to carry a child to term (other than the aches and pains and of course labour...)? If Miranda can't do that, and with say Shephard's child, then I would imagine that she would be absolutely conflicted if she can't have them naturally (if she's interested).

Ahh..here we are back to this topic again. I'll set aside my opinion about that issue for now. If you're fishing for an opinion about child bearing, it really depends on the woman. It's both a blessing and a curse. For some, it's more of one than the other. Although it plays a big part towards a woman's emotional connection to her child, and psychological acceptance that she's going to be a mother. That and the breast feeding experience all contribute to a long-term connection that usually outweighs the curse part which is quite a bit of bodily discomfort, not to mention post-natal irritants like realigning your body back to its original state physically and metabolically.

Eventually, both parents need to come to terms that they will have a new life that depends on them, for the woman it just comes more naturally because she experiences firsthand the signs of life from a growing pregnancy.  I suppose these aren't Miranda's biggest concerns though, although the emotional connection will probably apply. So yes, she may be conflicted in that she will not have that anchoring emotional connection with her child. (if she chooses a surrogate mother or an artificial womb)

As for the problem of the infertility: I think generally most people can sympathise and understand, but that sympathy is mostly academic because it's one of those things you can't really know until you've lost it. Even being in the position to lose it may not suffice for a deeper understanding. At least it doesn't for me. Another point to note is  most women don't think of the ability to bear a child as a hallmark of their humanity. Has it any bearing to their sense of womanhood? Yes. Since Miranda's existing conflict is with her humanity, it can go two ways: ie, it's her sense of being a woman that's threatened now and doesn't affect her sense of flawed humanity, or it could be a case of "in addition to" and thus extending the sense of loss to her humanity as well.

Just because someone lives longer in the ME universe, it doesn't necessarily mean that their biological clocks are set back by 10 years.

I believe fongiel and a few others have calculated that a healthy Miranda can probably still bear children even in her 80s, given the length of her lifespan and the slower rate that she ages. So realistically and assuming she's fertile, she wouldn't have to worry about the ticking clock till well into her 60s at least.

Modifié par Elyvern, 05 octobre 2010 - 03:55 .

[fongiel24]

I think either Revelation or Ascension states that human women can give birth to healthy children well into their 60s and 70s. Since Miranda isn't "normal", I think it'd be reasonable to assume she could possibly even push this into her 80s or 90s (if it wasn't for her infertility).

Regarding how Miranda would think of cybernetics in respect to her sense of "humanity", I think it's important to note that everyone thinks of "humanity" a little differently. I think for Miranda "humanity" is "normalcy". She has probably done at least some inhumane things during her service with Cerberus but I doubt any of them ever made her question her humanity. If cybernetic enhancements are a fairly common thing, I don't think she'd have any issues with getting some herself. If access to them is highly restricted and rare, I think she might have some issues. In either case though, I don't think she'd let her personal issues get in the way of something that could help her do her job more effectively and efficiently, provided the benefits were great enough.

Yannkee wrote...

Miranda would react the same way she reacts during the suicide mission : with her emotions. She would not allowed this to continue. She can't be pragmatic when things go too far against human ethic.
She's against torture, and she would not think that it is worth it.

I can't remember any point in ME2 where Miranda explicitly states her opposition to torture. Given that she's working for a shadowy organization whose modus operandi is to always do whatever is "necessary", I doubt her hands are completely clean. She might hold some moral objections to torture, but if it was the only way or the best way to get something done, I think she'd do it. 

Contrary to popular belief, torture can be effective, but only under conditions where intelligence extracted through torture can be cross-verified with other intelligence sources. It's effectiveness and accuracy is only limited when it's the only source being used. Keep in mind that different torture techniques can yield varying results.

"Brute force" techniques like waterboarding, tearing off fingernails, beatings, etc. are very limited in their effectiveness and are generally only useful to break the subject's spirit. Narcotics can be more effective because they're capable of causing extreme physical discomfort (due to withdrawal symptoms) and breaking down willpower simultaneously. More advanced tailor-made drugs and techniques utilizing altered reality are the most effective of all.

In the end, if the interrogator knows what they're doing, torture will break everyone. It's just a matter of ensuring that you don't kill the subject or drive them insane before that point. 

Modifié par fongiel24, 05 octobre 2010 - 03:58 .

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

I think either Revelation or Ascension states that human women can give birth to healthy children well into their 60s and 70s. Since Miranda isn't "normal", I think it'd be reasonable to assume she could possibly even push this into her 80s or 90s (if it wasn't for her infertility).

Actually, I'm wondering how you came to the numbers. Assuming that since the regular human can live to 150, middle age is roughly the time for menopause, then 60s-70s would be the menopausing period if we time-dilate the current human biological clock. Wouldn't that extend Miranda's time window considerably further if she can live to roughly 230? 

Regarding how Miranda would think of cybernetics in respect to her sense of "humanity", I think it's important to note that everyone thinks of "humanity" a little differently. I think for Miranda "humanity" is "normalcy". She has probably done at least some inhumane things during her service with Cerberus but I doubt any of them ever made her question her humanity. If cybernetic enhancements are a fairly common thing, I don't think she'd have any issues with getting some herself. If access to them is highly restricted and rare, I think she might have some issues. In either case though, I don't think she'd let her personal issues get in the way of something that could help her do her job more effectively and efficiently, provided the benefits were great enough.

Yes, of course. Our notion of what constitutes as humanity is also a reflection of the social mindset of the time we live in. In a world where cybernetics are prevalent, then it can be safely assumed most people's preceptions of what is human would be considerably more lenient. But there isn't overriding proof that the ME universe adopts the practice wholesale though, apart from the fact that yes, cybernetics exist. How prevalent are their use in normal society is unknown.

Yannkee wrote...

Miranda would react the same way she reacts during the suicide mission : with her emotions. She would not allowed this to continue. She can't be pragmatic when things go too far against human ethic.
She's against torture, and she would not think that it is worth it.

I can't remember any point in ME2 where Miranda explicitly states her opposition to torture. Given that she's working for a shadowy organization whose modus operandi is to always do whatever is "necessary", I doubt her hands are completely clean. She might hold some moral objections to torture, but if it was the only way or the best way to get something done, I think she'd do it. 

(snip)
In the end, if the interrogator knows what they're doing, torture will break everyone. It's just a matter of ensuring that you don't kill the subject or drive them insane before that point. 

Torture is also besides the point. I don't see how physically and psychologically torturing David will make him communicate with the geth better. That ridiculous contraption at the end was really quite pointless and excessive storywise.

Remind me never to get on your bad side, fongiel. You're scaring me a little bit.

Modifié par Elyvern, 05 octobre 2010 - 04:21 .

[Arijharn]

The reason torture doesn't work though (as an intelligence gathering tool) is that people will be willing to say anything just to make the pain go away. The more effective method would be using things like drugs or something to force the 'victim' into the belief that they have already revealed everything they want to know, and then the interrogator is just 'cross-referencing things' by studying past habits and using psychological information about said person.

[Elyvern]

From: cabal-art.deviantart.com/gallery/#Sphongmo
Awfully cute too, the entire series!

Modifié par Elyvern, 05 octobre 2010 - 05:02 .

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

Actually, I'm wondering how you came to the numbers. Assuming that since the regular human can live to 150, middle age is roughly the time for menopause, then 60s-70s would be the menopausing period if we time-dilate the current human biological clock. Wouldn't that extend Miranda's time window considerably further if she can live to roughly 230? 

I'd love to say I did research and extrapolated my research results, but I have to admit that I really just pulled Miranda's numbers out of my ass. My method: Ordinary Human = 60s-70s, Improved Human = Arbitrary Numbers Greater than 60s-70s.

Yes, of course. Our notion of what constitutes as humanity is also a reflection of the social mindset of the time we live in. In a world where cybernetics are prevalent, then it can be safely assumed most people's preceptions of what is human would be considerably more lenient. But there isn't overriding proof that the ME universe adopts the practice wholesale though, apart from the fact that yes, cybernetics exist. How prevalent are their use in normal society is unknown.

One thing I've always found confusing was that the manner in which Miranda was "created" doesn't seem that unusual in the 22nd century. I think I remember reading in the codex somewhere that most children are conceived through in vitro fertilization and I know I read that genetic engineering is a common procedure, albeit one that is generally used to correct for genetic diseases rather than to create superhumans. Miranda's father just took this a bit further.

I think the root of Miranda's issues doesn't have to do with the fact she has enhancements but rather the reason she was given those enhancements. If her father was just a wealthy man who gave her the enhancements because he was just looking to give his daughter an advantage in life, I think she might have been okay with having them. The problem is that her father's reasons for creating her were much more sinister than simply wanting to have a daughter. Her father's sinister intentions taint everything surrounding her creation. 

Torture is also besides the point. I don't see how physically and psychologically torturing David will make him communicate with the geth better. That ridiculous contraption at the end was really quite pointless and excessive storywise.

Remind me never to get on your bad side, fongiel. You're scaring me a little bit.

I think we have to assume that Jonathan was able to get some sort of accelerated results, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. Given that David seemed capable of communicating with the geth even without the rig though, I don't think the rig was necessary. I think if someone like Miranda was conducting the project and wasn't subjected to unreasonable deadlines, Overlord wouldn't have required that such horrors be inflicted on David.

I studied HUMINT (human intelligence) as a part of my degree. Studying the effectiveness of various torture techniques came as part of the territory .

[Caihn]

fongiel24 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Miranda would react the same way she reacts during the suicide mission : with her emotions. She would not allowed this to continue. She can't be pragmatic when things go too far against human ethic.
She's against torture, and she would not think that it is worth it.

I can't remember any point in ME2 where Miranda explicitly states her opposition to torture. Given that she's working for a shadowy organization whose modus operandi is to always do whatever is "necessary", I doubt her hands are completely clean. She might hold some moral objections to torture, but if it was the only way or the best way to get something done, I think she'd do it. 

Contrary to popular belief, torture can be effective, but only under conditions where intelligence extracted through torture can be cross-verified with other intelligence sources. It's effectiveness and accuracy is only limited when it's the only source being used. Keep in mind that different torture techniques can yield varying results.

"Brute force" techniques like waterboarding, tearing off fingernails, beatings, etc. are very limited in their effectiveness and are generally only useful to break the subject's spirit. Narcotics can be more effective because they're capable of causing extreme physical discomfort (due to withdrawal symptoms) and breaking down willpower simultaneously. More advanced tailor-made drugs and techniques utilizing altered reality are the most effective of all.

In the end, if the interrogator knows what they're doing, torture will break everyone. It's just a matter of ensuring that you don't kill the subject or drive them insane before that point. 

First Miranda is against gratuitous violence (bring miri with you to purgatory she will explicitly say it). Then, even if she doesn't want to admit that it was Cerberus, she doesn't approve the experimentations on Jack. And it's obvious that one of the reason why she approves the destruction of the collector base is that she knows Cerberus would probably perform experimentations on humans.

Miranda working for Cerberus doesn't mean she used the same controversal methods used by some people who work in other cells of the organisation. And if she was in charge of project overlord, she wouldn't let this torture on a human happen.

But I don't expect someone who think her reaction about the collector base is ooc, to understand this part of her character.

[fongiel24]

Yannkee wrote...

First Miranda is against gratuitous violence (bring miri with you to purgatory she will explicitly say it). Then, even if she doesn't want to admit that it was Cerberus, she doesn't approve the experimentations on Jack. And it's obvious that one of the reason why she approves the destruction of the collector base is that she knows Cerberus would probably perform experimentations on humans.

Miranda working for Cerberus doesn't mean she used the same controversal methods used by some people who work in other cells of the organisation. And if she was in charge of project overlord, she wouldn't let this torture on a human happen.

Miranda's comment on Purgatory is almost impossible to get - on all of my playthroughs the other squadmate always comments. Even if you do get it, all she states is "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty". Torture for the purpose of extracting information isn't pointless - the point is to get intelligence you otherwise might not have. It's not always the most reliable means of attaining intelligence, but it remains a viable tool nonetheless. Miranda doesn't even explicitly address torture here. Even if she did, note that she says sometimes necessary, not something to the effect of never justifiable. She objects to the guards beating the prisoner because this is the kind of brute force torture that's rarely effective and in this case is completely unnecessary and possibly counterproductive because the guards aren't working under time constraints. Whatever the guards want to get from the prisoner can probably be attained without the beating.

Miranda's revulsion at what went on at the Teltin facility can't be used to conclude that Miranda is always opposed to torture. Teltin was a particularly horrific example - the torture of helpless, kidnapped children for no purpose other than to poke their buttons until the researchers got the result they wanted. This isn't comparable to something like torturing an enemy agent for mission critical intelligence. It's not even really comparable to Overlord.

Horrific as Overlord, it was yielding results in an area that could have provided useful technology to combat the geth in the future. Jonathan Archer also wasn't callously torturing children to death and discarding them. What he did to David was unjustifiable, but he did it only as a last resort and under extreme duress due to TIM's deadlines. I agree that if Miranda were in charge, she probably wouldn't resort to Jonathan's methods, but she would continue with less extreme experimentation if she felt the project was viable. 

But I don't expect someone who think her reaction about the collector base is ooc, to understand this part of her character.

No, I don't understand your interpretation of her character. Just because you choose to interpret Miranda as someone who refuses to ever cross the line into morally grey areas doesn't make it true.

Think about it. Miranda isn't an idiot. She knows that Cerberus does some horrific things in the name of protecting humanity. She knows that TIM probably knows about it and at least tacitly endorses it. Yet she still thinks "humanity couldn't have a better advocate" than TIM. What are the chances a Miranda who's absolutely opposed to the use of torture would speak so glowingly of someone who is willing to go to any lengths to achieve his aims? What are the chances that your conception of Miranda would willingly work for an organization that so readily crosses ethical and moral lines?

Yes, I consider her reaction to the Collector Base to be OOC, but then Miranda is a morally nuanced character. She may be reacting emotionally to the extreme horror of what the Collectors were doing with their human victims. Just because she objects to keeping such an abomination doesn't automatically mean she objects to everything else Cerberus does.

Modifié par fongiel24, 05 octobre 2010 - 06:55 .

[Ieldra]

Thanks, fongiel, for saving me the time for writing your last reply to Yannkee. Agree 100%.

fongiel24 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
Actually, I'm wondering how you came to the numbers. Assuming that since the regular human can live to 150, middle age is roughly the time for menopause, then 60s-70s would be the menopausing period if we time-dilate the current human biological clock. Wouldn't that extend Miranda's time window considerably further if she can live to roughly 230? 

I'd love to say I did research and extrapolated my research results, but I have to admit that I really just pulled Miranda's numbers out of my ass. My method: Ordinary Human = 60s-70s, Improved Human = Arbitrary Numbers Greater than 60s-70s.

So let's get less arbitary: Assuming a regular woman's fertile period ends at 65in the ME universe, Miranda's lasts half again as long as that of an average human, and started at an age of 15, you'll get

End of Miranda's fertile period = 15 + (65-15)*1.5 = 90

With the usual statistical uncertainties and assuming her infertility can be cured. Having engineered children would be possible even later, though it's likely some corrective measures would have to be taken to counter the effects of cellular ageing.

Yes, of course. Our notion of what constitutes as humanity is also a reflection of the social mindset of the time we live in. In a world where cybernetics are prevalent, then it can be safely assumed most people's preceptions of what is human would be considerably more lenient. But there isn't overriding proof that the ME universe adopts the practice wholesale though, apart from the fact that yes, cybernetics exist. How prevalent are their use in normal society is unknown.

One thing I've always found confusing was that the manner in which Miranda was "created" doesn't seem that unusual in the 22nd century. I think I remember reading in the codex somewhere that most children are conceived through in vitro fertilization and I know I read that genetic engineering is a common procedure, albeit one that is generally used to correct for genetic diseases rather than to create superhumans. Miranda's father just took this a bit further.

You know, I wonder if Miranda is really that unique, given that the procedure that
created her isn't even illegal under current Alliance legislation. Maybe she's only the first of many. 

I think the root of Miranda's issues doesn't have to do with the fact she has enhancements but rather the reason she was given those enhancements. If her father was just a wealthy man who gave her the enhancements because he was just looking to give his daughter an advantage in life, I think she might have been okay with having them. The problem is that her father's reasons for creating her were much more sinister than simply wanting to have a daughter. Her father's sinister intentions taint everything surrounding her creation.

Not really his intentions, if you ask me, but how he treated her. If you want to build some kind of genetic aristocracy, sure you need to control where your offspring will mate, but I'd say otherwise nothing prevents you from being a loving parent. Real world examples also show it's possible to love your children *and* to encourage them to push themselves to their limits. I think the deciding factor was her father's overly controlling and paranoid ways. He was the first to treat her as nothing more than a tool, and she's not gotten away from that emotionally yet. The problem here is that being treated as a tool compounds any problems she might have had with her origins as an engineered human in particular, so they've merged into one in her mind, and it's become impossible to resolve the latter without resolving the former. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...




From: cabal-art.deviantart.com/gallery/#Sphongmo
Awfully cute too, the entire series!

:lol:
LOL, this is about the best Miranda-related humor I've seen so far. Particularly because "Cerberus" doesn't sound all that unrealistic as the name of an American football team.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Not really his intentions, if you ask me, but how he treated her. If you want to build some kind of genetic aristocracy, sure you need to control where your offspring will mate, but I'd say otherwise nothing prevents you from being a loving parent. Real world examples also show it's possible to love your children *and* to encourage them to push themselves to their limits. I think the deciding factor was her father's overly controlling and paranoid ways. He was the first to treat her as nothing more than a tool, and she's not gotten away from that emotionally yet. The problem here is that being treated as a tool compounds any problems she might have had with her origins as an engineered human in particular, so they've merged into one in her mind, and it's become impossible to resolve the latter without resolving the former. 

You're probably right. What I was trying to get at was that Miranda's father's first priority wasn't to create a daughter to love as family, but rather a perfect heir. Argh... it's hard to put into words exactly what I'm trying to get at. It's just not a "normal" father-daughter relationship I guess. If Miranda and her father had had a normal father-daughter relationship, I don't think she would have had as many issues over the fact she was engineered to be perfect.

I think that could explain why Oriana doesn't appear to have the same issues Miranda does over her "perfection". Then again, Oriana likely isn't aware of her origins. I wonder if Miranda would ever tell her if she asked.

[Jebel Krong]

Arijharn wrote...

I think she'd put David back into Overlord personally... although she'd be no less indignant than Shephard about how much this cost her (ie. pistol whipping Dr. Archer)

i disagree - she'd take david out, like i did with my shepards because: a. the experiment failed anyway - his autistic mind couldn't cope with the "noise" of all the geth communicating, hence going crazy and killing everyone. (i am excusing the fact that david could communicate with the geth who communicate electronically - at lightspeed - at all in this, because the whole notion is ridiculous).

and b. Seeing what Dr. Archer did to his brother would cause an emotional response similar to the collector base, but perhaps even more so as she has put so much time into protecting Oriana at all costs.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 05 octobre 2010 - 08:31 .

[Jebel Krong]

Elyvern wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...
Regarding how Miranda would think of cybernetics in respect to her sense of "humanity", I think it's important to note that everyone thinks of "humanity" a little differently. I think for Miranda "humanity" is "normalcy". She has probably done at least some inhumane things during her service with Cerberus but I doubt any of them ever made her question her humanity. If cybernetic enhancements are a fairly common thing, I don't think she'd have any issues with getting some herself. If access to them is highly restricted and rare, I think she might have some issues. In either case though, I don't think she'd let her personal issues get in the way of something that could help her do her job more effectively and efficiently, provided the benefits were great enough.

Yes, of course. Our notion of what constitutes as humanity is also a reflection of the social mindset of the time we live in. In a world where cybernetics are prevalent, then it can be safely assumed most people's preceptions of what is human would be considerably more lenient. But there isn't overriding proof that the ME universe adopts the practice wholesale though, apart from the fact that yes, cybernetics exist. How prevalent are their use in normal society is unknown.

it is established that genetic engineering is pretty common in the alliance, and cybernetics are common, certainly in other species (and of course shepard).

[Jebel Krong]

fongiel24 wrote...

Miranda's comment on Purgatory is almost impossible to get - on all of my playthroughs the other squadmate always comments. Even if you do get it, all she states is "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty". Torture for the purpose of extracting information isn't pointless - the point is to get intelligence you otherwise might not have. It's not always the most reliable means of attaining intelligence, but it remains a viable tool nonetheless. Miranda doesn't even explicitly address torture here. Even if she did, note that she says sometimes necessary, not something to the effect of never justifiable. She objects to the guards beating the prisoner because this is the kind of brute force torture that's rarely effective and in this case is completely unnecessary and possibly counterproductive because the guards aren't working under time constraints. Whatever the guards want to get from the prisoner can probably be attained without the beating.

Miranda's revulsion at what went on at the Teltin facility can't be used to conclude that Miranda is always opposed to torture. Teltin was a particularly horrific example - the torture of helpless, kidnapped children for no purpose other than to poke their buttons until the researchers got the result they wanted. This isn't comparable to something like torturing an enemy agent for mission critical intelligence. It's not even really comparable to Overlord.

Horrific as Overlord, it was yielding results in an area that could have provided useful technology to combat the geth in the future. Jonathan Archer also wasn't callously torturing children to death and discarding them. What he did to David was unjustifiable, but he did it only as a last resort and under extreme duress due to TIM's deadlines. I agree that if Miranda were in charge, she probably wouldn't resort to Jonathan's methods, but she would continue with less extreme experimentation if she felt the project was viable. 

But I don't expect someone who think her reaction about the collector base is ooc, to understand this part of her character.

No, I don't understand your interpretation of her character. Just because you choose to interpret Miranda as someone who refuses to ever cross the line into morally grey areas doesn't make it true.

Think about it. Miranda isn't an idiot. She knows that Cerberus does some horrific things in the name of protecting humanity. She knows that TIM probably knows about it and at least tacitly endorses it. Yet she still thinks "humanity couldn't have a better advocate" than TIM. What are the chances a Miranda who's absolutely opposed to the use of torture would speak so glowingly of someone who is willing to go to any lengths to achieve his aims? What are the chances that your conception of Miranda would willingly work for an organization that so readily crosses ethical and moral lines?

Yes, I consider her reaction to the Collector Base to be OOC, but then Miranda is a morally nuanced character. She may be reacting emotionally to the extreme horror of what the Collectors were doing with their human victims. Just because she objects to keeping such an abomination doesn't automatically mean she objects to everything else Cerberus does.

it's also a very slippery moral slope to be able to justify certain actions at certain times (something i guess renegades grapple with at times - good experience!) - torture generally not justified, but in extreme circumstances, yes. If Miranda is capable of rationalising one, it follows that she would be able to do so for others, the question is where would she draw the line? - the answer in-game is obviously the collector base (although that's not a direct analogue).

[Arijharn]

Ieldra, Miranda says during her LM that 'she wasn't the first one made, she was just the first one kept.' I don't think her father is altogether that worried about alliance law because if need be, he could just make her on some place like Noveria, and that's assuming he can't apply a liberal amount of pressure to the right people to allow him to get what he wants anyway.

[Jebel Krong]

Elyvern wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I don't see how having implants or whatever makes you less human than naturally. Is a person with a pacemaker less human? If a person has a bionic eye are they less human? Is a person who relies on a cane to manoeuvre less human than one who can't? Or is one's humanity depended on someone's willingness to have these things done to them?

I think humanity has more to do with who you are and how you think (your 'soul' maybe) rather than if you're aided by mechanical devices.

The problem here is cumulative effect. What if it's not just a bionic eye? What if it's your braincase being installed in a metal body? Can you say you're still human when in all appearances, you're a robot? Even if you can argue that you remain human, wouldn't you have self doubts, a conflict of identity? And the issue of synthetic enhancements is a slippery slope. Why stop at bionic eyes? Why stop at skin weaves? Why not replace organs wholesale with cybernetics? 

and this is the very subject a lot of good science-fiction wrestles with - because a lot of these actual problems are likely to become real-world problems as technology develops.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You know, I wonder if Miranda is really that unique, given that the procedure that
created her isn't even illegal under current Alliance legislation. Maybe she's only the first of many.   

genetically... no (and oriana is proof of that), but you are more than the sum of your genes - which is why we define the phenotype as well as genotype. She is unique by virtue of her experiences, including relationship with shepard, and that's all you need, really.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 05 octobre 2010 - 08:50 .

[Jebel Krong]

from yatenkou:

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...
Regarding how Miranda would think of cybernetics in respect to her sense of "humanity", I think it's important to note that everyone thinks of "humanity" a little differently. I think for Miranda "humanity" is "normalcy". She has probably done at least some inhumane things during her service with Cerberus but I doubt any of them ever made her question her humanity. If cybernetic enhancements are a fairly common thing, I don't think she'd have any issues with getting some herself. If access to them is highly restricted and rare, I think she might have some issues. In either case though, I don't think she'd let her personal issues get in the way of something that could help her do her job more effectively and efficiently, provided the benefits were great enough.

Yes, of course. Our notion of what constitutes as humanity is also a reflection of the social mindset of the time we live in. In a world where cybernetics are prevalent, then it can be safely assumed most people's preceptions of what is human would be considerably more lenient. But there isn't overriding proof that the ME universe adopts the practice wholesale though, apart from the fact that yes, cybernetics exist. How prevalent are their use in normal society is unknown.

it is established that genetic engineering is pretty common in the alliance, and cybernetics are common, certainly in other species (and of course shepard).

It is not established that cybernetics are common. The SR2 team has exceptional individuals, they don't count as representative for the big picture. Some types may be rather common, like the implanted accelerometers for haptic interfaces. But I see Shepard's muscle and skin enhancements as exceptional. 

@Elyvern and all:

Concerning the topic "human identity and cybernetics".

I'll have a go at it from a different angle. Regarding what constitutes humanity, there is really only one objective measure: you are human if you are biologically a member of the human species. Primary requirements would include a human genetic template (defining that could be tricky however), morphology and reproductive compatibility. Mental requirements are harder to grasp, but the human species is biologically wired to be a social species, so having a capacity for empathy would likely also count. There are probably a few more. Within these constraints, rationally it shouldn't matter what you do with your body.

But our conception of what constitutes humanity is not completely rational, maybe not even primarily rational. It is always influenced by a moral domain experts call "ethics of divinity", within which concepts like the sacred and "abominations" are born. The "Uncanny Valley" is a prime example of how that domain works: if something is sufficiently alien that it's obviously not human, we don't have a problem with it, but if it's sufficiently human that we feel it should look human, but somehow subtly doesn't, the likely result is revulsion. The same applies to human behavior - there is an "Uncanny Valley" in human behavior exhibited for instance by humans with certain mental illnesses. Dealing with cybernetics, it is likely that the very idea of having certain enhancements in yourself results in some kind of visceral discomfort comparable to that evoked by the Uncanny Valley. Most cultures translate such intuitions into notions of spiritual purity, and so a certain conception of what it means to be human becomes part of a moral domain. Please note that if you're an educated liberal westerner, your first reaction will likely be "this has nothing to do with morality", but a descriptive account of human morality shows that such things are experienced by most people in most cultures *excepting* the liberal stream of western culture as a matter of morality, evoking the same kind (if not the same strength) of emotional response as, for instance, the scene with David Archer tied to that contraption in Overlord.

While I am an educated and mostly liberal westerner and consequently do not view this as a matter of morality, the intuitive revulsion at the idea of "having my body invaded by self-building nanotech implants" is still there and influences my conception of what is human. I can overrule that intuition by reason to get to the more objective measure in the first paragraph, but that doesn't change what I feel about it, resulting in a strong emotional preference for limited cybernetic enhancements in my favorite character and elsewhere - fortunately, in Miranda's case, there are proven personality aspects supporting such a preference. There are also aspects supporting the opposite, which is why we can have a good debate about it - Miranda really is a complex character. For the ME universe, the question is: are cybernetic enhancements common enough that cultural intuitive conceptions of what is human have grown to incorporate them or not? I count it likely that it has adapted to genetic engineering limited as by current Alliance legislation, but not so much to cybernetics. YMMV, of course.

Another aspect: recall what Mordin says about the Collectors, how successively more aspects of the original protheans  were "replaced by tech" at the hands of the Reapers? I don't mind *adding* stuff, like bio-amps, implanted commlinks, accelerometers etc. etc., but the idea of having integral body parts replaced, wholly or in part, as in those muscle and skin implants, without medical necessity looks too much like that for comfort. Again, YMMV.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:56 .

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
Ieldra, Miranda says during her LM that 'she wasn't the first one made, she was just the first one kept.' I don't think her father is altogether that worried about alliance law because if need be, he could just make her on some place like Noveria, and that's assuming he can't apply a liberal amount of pressure to the right people to allow him to get what he wants anyway.

No, of course he isn't. My point was that considering creating Miranda wasn't illegal, I count it likely that others might have tried to do the same, so there could be more people in the ME universe with a similar level of genetic enhancements.

@Jebel Krong:
I agree with you about how Miranda is unique, but that's beside the point for the reasoning in my post.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:00 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

I understand why some people think her reaction on the Collector Base if you choose to destroy it and she is there is OOC, but to me it isn't. I think the only real odd thing is that if you choose to keep it they probably should have had her voicing the same concern she shows post-mission back on the ship.

The thing is, I love her reaction on the ship, you can see the anguish in her eyes and I think it further proves that the reaction on the base isn't OOC. She has gone from being totally 100% belief in what Cerberus is doing is right, to really knocking the stuffing out of her a bit and beginning to wonder if it really is true that Cerberus is doing the right thing for Humanity.

I know when I first heard about the 'decision on the collector base' before I played it, I did wonder if it would be a moment whereby if you had Jacob or Miranda there they would turn on you and you'd end up killing them. Naturally soon as I started playing the game, I knew Jacob wouldn't. It is also poignant to point out how TIM doesn't even order Jacob to do it because he obviously knows that Jacob isn't trusting of him. Whereas he does obviously believe Miranda still is. One thing TIM seems to forget is how different things are from being out in the field and sat behind a desk.

I know people talk about ME2 squadmates being cameoed, but I liken Miranda to Wrex and Liara. Moreso Wrex obviously because Liara so far is unkillable. Whereas if you recruited Wrex in ME he becomes the Clan Leader and pretty much looking to be all round leader of the Krogans in ME2. Despite him stating how he won't join Shep in ME2, I actually think they'll have a reason for him doing so in ME3. He is supposedly old by time of ME2 and I think he'll want to go out fighting rather than sat on some stone throne. So what better way than to fight the Reapers who plan on making everyone extinct. As for why this ties in with Miranda, well if she survives the Suicide Mission I am going to assume there is the potential for her to become TIW, possibly in one of the bridging DLCs, this will of course help give Ash/Kaidan reason for joining back up with Shepard seeing as the whole "Your with Cerberus" thing was the main reason for them not joining up with Shep in ME2.

Even if she is TIW, I don't see her being desk-jockeyed either. If the Verse as they know it is about to end, what is the point of sitting behind a desk? (other than on the Normandy going into a fight )

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

from yatenkou:

Oh, oh....a loyalty outfit version of that fantastic wallpaper. That makes me go all