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[Ieldra]

I hope you're finished modifying your post as I write this.

Elyvern wrote...
The more we talk about this, the more I have this nagging suspicion that a genetic dynasty solely in the form of extremely intelligent, physically superior and longer-lived descendents doesn't seem to justify Miranda's father's efforts, time and money or the lengths he goes to safeguard his "assets".  Especially when we have established that so far as we can see, the modifications to his daughter's genetic templates are well within legal limits and that there are likely more examples of people similarly genetically modified in human populations. To put it in another way, it wouldn't be unique or specific enough to be termed a dynasty or valued as one.

I'm with you so far. That has bugged me for some time.

It makes me wonder if there is a timeline-contingent "bomb" in Miranda's genetic code, so to speak, some unknown biological capability that he'd expect her or (more likely) her offspring to manifest which will justify the efforts he put into her and her sisters. While we cannot discount that her father may have sociopathic tendencies that makes him so emotionally distant from his children, but if he isn't a simple mental deviant, then it would support the idea that there is more to his daughters than what meets the eye, and may explain his cold behaviour because he views them as experiments and assets with immense potential that will manifest in time. Who can say that he kept strictly within the legal alliance limits either? A man of his wealth and influence could very well hide certain aspects of his genetic tampering from public eye as long as his daughters don't exhibit overtly abnormal abilities, or the true nature of his meddling only becomes apparent in later generations.

Which then makes me wonder if Miranda herself ever suspected something like that, and how detailed is her knowledge about her genetic components. Has she ever attempt to sequence her own genes? I'd think that the inconclusive data regarding her infertility seems to suggest she didn't, and/or the scientific advances in the ME universe is still insufficiently advanced to read genetic codes to such a detail (although I think this is such bull****).

I think that Miranda has very detailed knowledge of her own genetic template. She is scientifically-minded, and she has known she's engineered for a very long time. That ME biology is insufficiently advanced to read genetic codes in detail is very implausible, and that she's not made the attempt is unbelievable. Her infertility is likely not genetic in nature.
A genetic trait with delayed manifestation would be possible, but I think it's rather hard to pull off something that reliably manifests after puberty. The question is what would trigger it. I wouldn't rule it out completely, but I don't think Bioware was that subtle.

My pet theory still remains that he's trying to create genetic biotics, even though Ieldra has kindly disproved that with too much rationalisation and we don't have proof that Oriana is a biotic. (Damn it, Ieldra!  BTW, I still want to say I think my theory holds water in that ME science has again and again prove that it's not as failproof as many of our imagined rationalisations)

I think the hypothesis that he's tried that with Miranda can't be upheld because biotics weren't known until 2156. There is a loophole that would allow you to hypothesize he's tried it with Oriana, only you'd need to assume that Miranda never let her sister's DNA be analyzed to detect they're not actually genetically identical. I think it's a stretch, but it is a loophole.
If Miranda's father tried to create genetic biotics with Oriana, then Miranda and Oriana are not genetic twins. Then Oriana can either be a success or a failure. If she is a success, then her traits never manifested, but there could be perfectly mundane reasons for that, for instance a life free of high stress levels. If she is a success and her traits never manifested, however, having them manifest in future would mean that the whole theory of biotic manifestation in humans would need to be rewritten.

All in all, good material for a fanfic, but almost certainly not canon. Bioware wouldn't put so much thought into a minor character like Oriana. It would also make Oriana a major character - not in the ME story, but in human history. It is, however, a very fascinating idea.

BTW, I don't recall the arguments I've brought earlier against this theory, this was just written as I thought about it. Did I say anything I haven't said here? I only recall that I found it implausible that her infertility was engineered in on purpose. I still maintain that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2010 - 05:44 .

[jtav]

I need some help. I've latched on to the idea that Miranda's father disposed of his rejects by committing them to an asylum. In the backstory I'm using, Miranda narrowly avoided the same fate. What would be a good diagnosis to use as a pretext? My first thought was paranoid schizophrenia, but what would be even better is something Miranda, in her worst moments, believes might be true.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I hope you're finished modifying your post as I write this.

My turn to ask.

Elyvern wrote...
The more we talk about this, the more I have this nagging suspicion that a genetic dynasty solely in the form of extremely intelligent, physically superior and longer-lived descendents doesn't seem to justify Miranda's father's efforts, time and money or the lengths he goes to safeguard his "assets".  Especially when we have established that so far as we can see, the modifications to his daughter's genetic templates are well within legal limits and that there are likely more examples of people similarly genetically modified in human populations. To put it in another way, it wouldn't be unique or specific enough to be termed a dynasty or valued as one.

I'm with you so far. That has bugged me for some time.

Yes, and assuming I am a writer for ME, I wouldn't let this pass as what it seems to be: Miranda's father having limited vision because that just spells the end of future speculations and plot options. You could also say the term "dynasty" was coined by Miranda which would mean her own flawed and ill-informed perceptions could come into play. But a writer with meta-knowledge wouldn't choose for her to use that term unless they have something more specifically in mind. So we can agree that it's very likely there is more than we've been let in on. The sticking point is, of course, what that additional "twist" is. And that's why I'd like to invite everyone to use their imagination to expand on the possibilities.

I think that Miranda has very detailed knowledge of her own genetic template. She is scientifically-minded, and she has known she's engineered for a very long time. That ME biology is insufficiently advanced to read genetic codes in detail is very implausible, and that she's not made the attempt is unbelievable. Her infertility is likely not genetic in nature.

A genetic trait with delayed manifestation would be possible, but I think it's rather hard to pull off something that reliably manifests after puberty. The question is what would trigger it. I wouldn't rule it out completely, but I don't think Bioware was that subtle.

I agree with you that her infertility is not likely to be genetic in nature in that it would be a very unreliable tool if her father intended to use it to control her reproductive behaviour. I also agree about the difficulties of a delayed manifestation post-puberty with Miranda, hence I posit it's more likely the manifestation is expected to appear in her offspring rather than herself.

The difference is between your opinion and mine is, I actually think it's possible she hasn't undertaken a thorough sequencing of her genetic template, considering the fact that she doesn't think of finding out what her father has been up to all these years after she rescued Oriana, or if she has, she hasn't acted on it. You can argue that Cerberus and her work for them may have dissuade her from doing so, but you also cannot discount the fact that this particular issue (her father's treatment of her and her own engineered origins) hit very close home to her most deepset insecurities that she may not be entirely emotionally divorced from it, and wouldn't therefore act entirely in accordance with her generally rational personality.

I think the hypothesis that he's tried that with Miranda can't be upheld because biotics weren't known until 2156.

I actually did give thought to this and went back to check the official timeline on the ME wiki to ascertain the plausibility of that. I'm inclined to think the events in there is official knowledge, as in they are made canon by when the related authorities choose to announce them to the public. The way I see it is if there was any organisation that would likely to be the first to know unofficially that Eezo can be incorporated into the human body in the form of nodules on the nervous system, a formerly alliance (or whatever constituted as alliance then)-aligned Cerberus would be a likely candidate. For example, it could be that one of their female researchers was unwittingly exposed during the research phase while being pregnant. 

We also don't know exactly how long Miranda's father has been attempting to build his genetic dynasty. But we do know that he was probably privy to Cerberus's innermost secrets, being a major backer and all. Keeping in mind that his agenda could be the creation of genetic biotics, we can set the earliest onset date of his experimentations to 2147 (the year Eezo is discovered by humans). That would leave a 3 year window for him to experiment before Miranda was born in 2150. Miranda did say she was the first child her father kept which makes it credible that she may be the first daughter (or close to the first) that managed to make it past fetal development stage.  

I admit that all this requires a pretty specific set of circumstances to be plausible, but since we're speculating, I thought I'd push the theory to its logical conclusion.

There is a loophole that would allow you to hypothesize he's tried it with Oriana, only you'd need to assume that Miranda never let her sister's DNA be analyzed to detect they're not actually genetically identical. I think it's a stretch, but it is a loophole.

If Miranda's father tried to create genetic biotics with Oriana, then Miranda and Oriana are not genetic twins. Then Oriana can either be a success or a failure. If she is a success, then her traits never manifested, but there could be perfectly mundane reasons for that, for instance a life free of high stress levels. If she is a success and her traits never manifested, however, having them manifest in future would mean that the whole theory of biotic manifestation in humans would need to be rewritten.

If Miranda hasn't committed to a full sequencing of her genetic template as I've pointed out above, then her reference to being genetic twins with Oriana could simply be a general figure of speech. They would still be genetically similar enough to not make that reference outright wrong. The possibility that Oriana hasn't manifest her biotics because of the lack of trauma in her life (given that she is a biotic according to the theory) is something I haven't thought about, so I thank you for that.

All in all, good material for a fanfic, but almost certainly not canon. Bioware wouldn't put so much thought into a minor character like Oriana. It would also make Oriana a major character - not in the ME story, but in human history. It is, however, a very fascinating idea.

I agree that Bioware isn't likely to intend Oriana to play such a big part, assuming that they will address the issue in general at some point in a DLC or in ME3. Also, it's actually the most important plotline of my fanfic. Apologies in advance for spoiling the story, but I felt that the idea is so fascinating that it doesn't warrant waiting for my writing to study the possibilities.

BTW, I don't recall the arguments I've brought earlier against this theory, this was just written as I thought about it. Did I say anything I haven't said here? I only recall that I found it implausible that her infertility was engineered in on purpose. I still maintain that.

I can't believe you made me dig through 100 pages of backlog but here it is :
http://social.biowar...dex/2857694/154

Modifié par Elyvern, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
The difference is between your opinion and mine is, I actually think it's possible she hasn't undertaken a thorough sequencing of her genetic template, considering the fact that she doesn't think of finding out what her father has been up to all these years after she rescued Oriana, or if she has, she hasn't acted on it. You can argue that Cerberus and her work for them may have dissuade her from doing so, but you also cannot discount the fact that this particular issue (her father's treatment of her and her own engineered origins) hit very close home to her most deepset insecurities that she may not be entirely emotionally divorced from it, and wouldn't therefore act entirely in accordance with her generally rational personality.

It's certainly not contradictory to anything else. I hesitate, though, to attribute too many things to her insecurity, since that could compromise her personality. That she hasn't acted against her father can have many reasons, I've given that some thought for "Promethean Legacy". Also, that she wouldn't analyze her own DNA is something I can't wrap my mind around. I'm very much convinced it would be the very first thing she'd do after acquiring the information and the knowledge, putting a very high priority into the project. I tend to assume she got her extensive knowledge in human biology exactly because of that motivation. So while not exactly implausible, your hypotheses seriously clashes with how I see her on several points.

I actually did give thought to this and went back to check the official timeline on the ME wiki to ascertain the plausibility of that. I'm inclined to think the events in there is official knowledge, as in they are made canon by when the related authorities choose to announce them to the public. The way I see it is if there was any organisation that would likely to be the first to know unofficially that Eezo can be incorporated into the human body in the form of nodules on the nervous system, a formerly alliance (or whatever constituted as alliance then)-aligned Cerberus would be a likely candidate. For example, it could be that one of their female researchers was unwittingly exposed during the research phase while being pregnant.

It still doesn't add up. Biotics manifest in children from about six years onward, give it two years up and down and it still doesn't add up. There's absolutely no way anyone could've known what eezo did when Miranda's genetic template was made in 2149 or 50. Sorry, there's no way around it unless you hypothesize someone has discovered eezo earlier than in 2147. Unless you want to contradict major facts of the timeline, the hypothesis that Miranda was intended to be a genetic biotic can't be upheld.

I agree that Bioware isn't likely to intend Oriana to play such a big part if the idea is what they have in mind and assuming that they will address it at some point in a DLC or in ME3. Also, it's actually the most important plotline of my fanfic. Apologies in advance for spoiling the story, but I felt that the idea is so fascinating that it doesn't warrant waiting for my writing to study the possibilities.

I hope you'll have something for us to read soon. Oriana as a biotic will appear in one of my fanfics as well, but there she's just like Miranda, an artificial one. In your scenario, she'd be a major figure in human history. I'm strangely attracted to the idea.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:47 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I need some help. I've latched on to the idea that Miranda's father disposed of his rejects by committing them to an asylum. In the backstory I'm using, Miranda narrowly avoided the same fate. What would be a good diagnosis to use as a pretext? My first thought was paranoid schizophrenia, but what would be even better is something Miranda, in her worst moments, believes might be true.

I'm using the same premise. I'm not an expert on mental illnesses, but it would have to be occasionally dangerous to others in order to require putting her in a closed facility. The closest I can come to that without giving her an immediately apparent real problem is ASPD (antisocial personality disorder). Minus the impulsiveness, but she might have shown that as a teenager. It would require some interpretation, but after all it must only have a little bit of plausibility. The hard part would be actually having someone institutionalized for it who doesn't have it in the first place. They'd have to pretend it was an extreme form, as I understand it, it doesn't usually require institutionalization. Regarding Miranda's fears, I can easily see her viewing herself with ASPD in mind in her worst moments. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's certainly not contradictory to anything else. I hesitate, though, to attribute too many things to her insecurity, since that could compromise her personality. That she hasn't acted against her father can have many reasons, I've given that some thought for "Promethean Legacy". Also, that she wouldn't analyze her own DNA is something I can't wrap my mind around. I'm very much convinced it would be the very first thing she'd do after acquiring the information and the knowledge, putting a very high priority into the project. I tend to assume she got her extensive knowledge in human biology exactly because of that motivation. So while not exactly implausible, your hypotheses seriously clashes with how I see her on several points.

I agree with the danger of compromising her personality and I do see a way that would align your vision with mine (which would involve changing my vision to suit yours, and I'm not adversed to it): an incomplete analysis of her gene sequence. I think it's plausible that a genetic trait that is meant to breed true in subsequent generations may be harder to detect without a dedicated search with prior knowledge to look for specific markers. All the information may be present at hand, but it would still require human intuition to assemble the puzzle, a puzzle so arcane that you wouldn't think of looking for it unless you know what to look for in the first place.

It still doesn't add up. Biotics manifest in children from about six years onward, give it two years up and down and it still doesn't add up. There's absolutely no way anyone could've known what eezo did when Miranda's genetic template was made in 2149 or 50. Sorry, there's no way around it unless you hypothesize someone has discovered eezo earlier than in 2147. Unless you want to contradict major facts of the timeline, the hypothesis that Miranda was intended to be a genetic biotic can't be upheld.

What if the possibility of a genetic biotic was something that occur along the way to her father? It's a stretch, but 30 years ago, Miranda's canon genetic advantages may be the pinnacle of human genetic engineering. But when the fact that eezo exposure produces human biotics was established, her father tried to artificially incorporate the ability in her via surgery and retrogenetic techniques. Success with Miranda is then further extrapolated through the intention to create Oriana as a true genetic biotic.

I really appreciate the sounding board upon which to build my story on, although I keep thinking that we should probably take this into PMs to prevent spoiling my entire story. But I think (I hope!) we're mostly done now.

Modifié par Elyvern, 05 octobre 2010 - 08:24 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I need some help. I've latched on to the idea that Miranda's father disposed of his rejects by committing them to an asylum. In the backstory I'm using, Miranda narrowly avoided the same fate. What would be a good diagnosis to use as a pretext? My first thought was paranoid schizophrenia, but what would be even better is something Miranda, in her worst moments, believes might be true.

I'm using the same premise. I'm not an expert on mental illnesses, but it would have to be occasionally dangerous to others in order to require putting her in a closed facility. The closest I can come to that without giving her an immediately apparent real problem is ASPD (antisocial personality disorder). Minus the impulsiveness, but she might have shown that as a teenager. It would require some interpretation, but after all it must only have a little bit of plausibility. The hard part would be actually having someone institutionalized for it who doesn't have it in the first place. They'd have to pretend it was an extreme form, as I understand it, it doesn't usually require institutionalization. Regarding Miranda's fears, I can easily see her viewing herself with ASPD in mind in her worst moments. 

The (awful) thing about mental disorders is they aren't mutually exclusive. A person could be suffering from multiple disorders at the same time. So you could even pile on bipolar depression to ASPD to make the scenario even more convincing.

Modifié par Elyvern, 05 octobre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's certainly not contradictory to anything else. I hesitate, though, to attribute too many things to her insecurity, since that could compromise her personality. That she hasn't acted against her father can have many reasons, I've given that some thought for "Promethean Legacy". Also, that she wouldn't analyze her own DNA is something I can't wrap my mind around. I'm very much convinced it would be the very first thing she'd do after acquiring the information and the knowledge, putting a very high priority into the project. I tend to assume she got her extensive knowledge in human biology exactly because of that motivation. So while not exactly implausible, your hypotheses seriously clashes with how I see her on several points.

I do see a way that would align your vision with mine: an incomplete analysis of the her gene sequence. I think it's plausible that a genetic trait that is meant to breed true in subsequent generations may be harder to detect without a dedicated search with prior knowledge to look for specific markers. All the information may be present at hand, but it would still require human intuition to assemble the puzzle, a puzzle so arcane that you wouldn't think of looking for it unless you know what to look for in the first place.

You know, I'm not an expert in genetics, but I wonder if it's at all possible to have a trait that reliably manifests in subsequent generations without manifesting in generation X (Miranda). If it's dominant, it manifests in generation X, and if it's not, then it doesn't manifest reliably in subsequent generations. You might be able to put a switch in activated by.....hmm... can't think of anything, but in any case the trait exists at the same place in the DNA as if it had manifested. It should be easy to detect.
But if you want - genetics is an extremely complicated field, so I guess no one would take it amiss if you rationalized things that way. If I'll feel comfortable with it remains to be seen. It'd take some getting used to.

It still doesn't add up. Biotics manifest in children from about six years onward, give it two years up and down and it still doesn't add up. There's absolutely no way anyone could've known what eezo did when Miranda's genetic template was made in 2149 or 50. Sorry, there's no way around it unless you hypothesize someone has discovered eezo earlier than in 2147. Unless you want to contradict major facts of the timeline, the hypothesis that Miranda was intended to be a genetic biotic can't be upheld.

What if the possibility of a genetic biotic was something that occur along the way to her father? It's a stretch, but 30 years ago, Miranda's canon genetic advantages may be the pinnacle of human genetic engineering. But when the fact that eezo exposure produces human biotics was established, her father tried to artificially incorporate the ability in her via surgery and retrogenetic techniques. Success with Miranda is then further extrapolated through the intention to create Oriana as a true genetic biotic.

That genetic biotics are even possible would only occur to human science after contact with the asari. Then, an intervention would make no sense because Miranda is already an artificial biotic at that point. Genetic modification would add absolutely nothing that isn't already there, put in by surgery. OK, you could always rip the old stuff out, but really, you're moving further and further away from the plausible with every additional assumption you need for an idea already implausible in the first place. IMO there is no way to make that not sound contrived to readers who know their ME universe. It's easier to assume something *really* strange, like that Miranda had an accidental eezo exposure that lead to a random mutation enabling genetic biotics, but was only discovered after her father started on making her an artificial one. An accidentally genetic biotic Miranda is more believable at this point. That might have brought her father the idea to engineer a better version in Oriana.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2010 - 08:33 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You know, I'm not an expert in genetics, but I wonder if it's at all possible to have a trait that reliably manifests in subsequent generations without manifesting in generation X (Miranda). If it's dominant, it manifests in generation X, and if it's not, then it doesn't manifest reliably in subsequent generations. You might be able to put a switch in activated by.....hmm... can't think of anything, but in any case the trait exists at the same place in the DNA as if it had manifested. It should be easy to detect.
But if you want - genetics is an extremely complicated field, so I guess no one would take it amiss if you rationalized things that way. If I'll feel comfortable with it remains to be seen. It'd take some getting used to.

I admit as well that my knowledge of genetics generally ends at dominant and passive switches affecting expressed traits. Where's a geneticist when you need one, lol! But I'm thinking of adding another (plot) layer in that only females of a given generation will breed true biotics. Males wouldn't be able to, which goes to explaining why Miranda's father opts for female children instead of male.

What if the possibility of a genetic biotic was something that occur along the way to her father? It's a stretch, but 30 years ago, Miranda's canon genetic advantages may be the pinnacle of human genetic engineering. But when the fact that eezo exposure produces human biotics was established, her father tried to artificially incorporate the ability in her via surgery and retrogenetic techniques. Success with Miranda is then further extrapolated through the intention to create Oriana as a true genetic biotic.

That genetic biotics are even possible would only occur to human science after contact with the asari. Then, an intervention would make no sense because Miranda is already an artificial biotic at that point. Genetic modification would add absolutely nothing that isn't already there, put in by surgery. OK, you could always rip the old stuff out, but really, you're moving further and further away from the plausible with every additional assumption you need for an idea already implausible in the first place. IMO there is no way to make that not sound contrived to readers who know their ME universe. It's easier to assume something *really* strange, like that Miranda had an accidental eezo exposure that lead to a random mutation enabling genetic biotics, but was only discovered after her father started on making her an artificial one. An accidentally genetic biotic Miranda is more believable at this point. That might have brought her father the idea to engineer a better version in Oriana.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The point I was trying to make is Miranda's father may not intend her to be the first of true genetic biotics (ie she's not one, but her children will be), althought your postulation raises interesting possibilities. The act of artificially grafting eezo nodules into her system may be an experiment to see if it was possible. And she could also be an experimental platform for genetic modifications (via retrogenetics as a child)which are then applied to Oriana.

Thanks for being my sounding board and as well as all the feedback. I think I can now confuzzle the average reader into buying my scheme at least.  

Modifié par Elyvern, 05 octobre 2010 - 10:36 .

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

I admit as well that my knowledge of genetics generally ends at dominant and passive switches affecting expressed traits. Where's a geneticist when you need one, lol! But I'm thinking of adding another (plot) layer in that only females of a given generation will breed true biotics. Males wouldn't be able to, which goes to explaining why Miranda's father opts for female children instead of male.

Like you and Ieldra, I'm pretty limited in my familiarity with genetics as well, but maybe biotics requires some combination of genes only carried on the X chromosome. You'd have to have a pair, otherwise biotics won't manifest themselves. That way, only XX individuals could be bred into natural biotics and XY individuals could only be carriers of the gene. To keep it exclusive, this gene would be have been engineered and patented by Miranda's father, meaning if his daughters bred with outsiders, it would never result in a natural biotic because the specific gene doesn't occur naturally. The only way Miranda could then "taint" her genetic legacy would be to find a male with that specific gene on his X chromosome - impossible unless her father engineered a son.

[jtav]

Rough draft of the first section of the Miranda/Liara story is finally done. 9100 words. And I still have substantial revisions to do, but you'll be seeing something from me soon. I know this probably won't be the most of your tastes, but I appreciate your patience with me over the last few months.

[Arijharn]

Changing the subject almost entirely, how many people think that her father knowingly and tacitly approves Miranda' 'defection' to Cerberus as some way to 'see how she acts?'



The whole game seems to hype her father as an intelligent and controlling character (somewhat like TIM I guess), I fail to see why her going to Cerberus would suddenly make her father who seems to be very much pro-humanity suddenly decide not to support Cerberus anymore. If he's also exceptionally wealthy, I could hardly see TIM being in a hurry to loose his financial support, and since Miranda has openly stated that she doesn't know the extent of Cerberus' finances and finds it unlikely that anyone bar the Illusive Man would, I think it's more than possible that he still is bankrolling Cerberus' operations.



If Miranda escaped some 19 years ago (give or take), I fail to see how in all that time her father couldn't learn a few tricks (or hell, pay other people to invent new tricks) in accounting practices that allows him to continue funding Cerberus activities without Miranda's knowledge. I think it would be quite awesome if Miranda was guilty in some way of hubris.



I would like to qualify the statement in saying that Mr. X wouldn't know everything that goes on inside Cerberus of course (maybe he wouldn't like all the implications that might mean) so it's quite possible that he actually doesn't know about Oriana's position etc, so that doesn't dismiss her LM (although I would hope that the issue of Oriana is a little more complicated than what it first appeared).

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
Changing the subject almost entirely, how many people think that her father knowingly and tacitly approves Miranda' 'defection' to Cerberus as some way to 'see how she acts?'

It it plausible, but I would dislike that quite a bit. She'd be set to discover that she's been doing as her father wanted all the time. That could break her.

If Miranda escaped some 19 years ago (give or take), I fail to see how in all that time her father couldn't learn a few tricks (or hell, pay other people to invent new tricks) in accounting practices that allows him to continue funding Cerberus activities without Miranda's knowledge. I think it would be quite awesome if Miranda was guilty in some way of hubris.

I wish you would all stop heaping problems and flaws on her. What are you, sadists? She has quite enough of both, and adding any more would not be "awesome" (I can't imagine how anyone could think that), it would turn her into a caricature.

In short: No.

[fongiel24]

I've never gotten the impression that Cerberus was wanting for funds. Doing what they do costs a lot of money, but Cerberus also seems to have vast revenue streams. I doubt losing one donor would really concern them all that much, particularly if that donor was trying to interfere in Cerberus operations or use them for his own ends.



I get the impression that TIM probably guards Cerberus' independence quite fiercely. The deal if you're a donor is you hand over your money and just trust that TIM will do his job protecting humanity's interests. I don't think TIM would tolerate Miranda's father just "lending" Cerberus his daughter. Miranda isn't so useful that TIM would be willing to allow somebody else to meddle in his business.

[Arijharn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It it plausible, but I would dislike that quite a bit. She'd be set to discover that she's been doing as her father wanted all the time. That could break her.

Then your friendship/love would be even more important to her. I don't think it could 'break' her in so much challenge her personally.

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wish you would all stop heaping problems and flaws on her. What are you, sadists? She has quite enough of both, and adding any more would not be "awesome" (I can't imagine how anyone could think that), it would turn her into a caricature.

In short: No.

Are you lucky enough to only have a single flaw Ieldra? I'm adding 'problems' to her to see how she grows as a character. These are all developments that would only happen if you are in a friendship/mutual respect or in a romance with her so that you can help 'chart her course.'

Miranda's intelligent, but she isn't omniscient, she's strong but not omnipotent. She isn't a butterfly that lives and dies on a single day (not that they all do anyway). Honestly, I'd be disappointed if she had no growth whatsoever and diversity seems to be a good way to do it.

I'm not talking about insurmountable problems of course, because that would be equally disappointing. Since of course that you're patently against her infertility as well, it seems to me that you're against anything that mixes up or challenges Miranda at all. It's like you'd be quite happy with Miranda if she suddenly became a perfect crystal so that you can gaze lovingly at her as she is for the rest of all time.

[t3HPrO]

Everytime I come here and see arguments about Miranda's creation, I look at my fic and go 'oh f*ck, this contrasts with my interpretation.' I seriously need to stop paying heed to these arguments...*bashes head repeatedly against table* Right. Now where were we? Oh yeah, I feel that giving Miranda a couple of problems is fine, but you seem to be pouring it on like I pour syrup over my pancakes Arj and the rest of you. You're overdoing it. And jtav, I'm still skeptical about your Miri/Liara pairing. It's too left field for some of us Mirimancers and Liaramancers. I'm not exactly biting either, but I'll read it just to see what happens.

[Breakdown Boy]

Man this thread gets deeper and deeper everytime I drop by.



Really having problems with my fanfic, not with the direction of the story but just plain putting the words to paper, also work has been so busy I haven't had time to write like I used.



Trying to finish this one small section on Shepard between Mindoir and joining the Alliance but I am struggling to get the words to describe his motivation to become a soldier.



After this all the fun stuff I've been thinking about Shep starts and all the hard stuff for Miri starts. I have no idea what I am going to write about her after joining Cerberus. I need to think of missions or events that basically get her to the top position you find her in ME2.



Haven't played ME2 in a couple of weeks, maybe I should go back to my fanon SHep and go at it again to get my thoughts back into the ME universe.

[Ieldra]

@Arijharn:
I may have overreacted a bit in my last post. Sorry about that - seems to be a character flaw

Let me explain what I really wanted to say:
Strange as it may seem after my last post, I actually like your idea. It fits seamlessly into what already exists, and explains a few not so plausible things in Miranda's history. I also completely agree that Miranda should not be omniscient. But I have three problems with it.

The first problem is that after LotSB, my stance regarding Miranda's problems and flaws has hardened into "Enough is enough!" My dislike of her infertility, btw, is very specific and unrelated to Miranda as a character. While I don't agree she needed something like it, I would've accepted many different problems with a similar psychic impact more easily than infertility. If they had hinted at something like your scenario in LotSB, that would have been perfectly OK.

The second problem is that you used the term "hubris". After re-reading your post, I think you might have used the term wrongly. I have no objection to Miranda thinking she knows more than she actually knows. Even the best can be deceived, and no, she shouldn't be omniscient. "Hubris" has actually two very distinct meanings. One can be paraphrased roughly as "arrogance", and I would hate Miranda expressing more of that. The other can be paraphrased roughly as "presumption", which I actually count as something of a virtue if used in a religious/spiritual context. In your scenario, she's only ignorant of some things that go on in her father's domain, and maybe a bit overconfident in her knowledge. That's perfectly OK, and it does make a good story premise, but it not constitute hubris.

The third problem is that, well, enough *is* actually enough. As t3HPro said, it's piling up, and she's in danger of being turned into a different character. Also, I do not subscribe to the school of thought that flaws are more valuable in defining a character than virtues, and I don't want a Miranda who is a psychic wreck. I don't even want her to start that way so that she can show her strength of character by overcoming it. Her self-esteem issues and her infertility combined are serious enough that she definitely doesn't need any more major problems. At some point, it becomes unbelievable that she can still act competently.

So, while I like your scenario and wish we could use it instead of the infertility, added on top of what's already there it's too much. As a point of constructive criticism: if you could tone down the aspect "she's done what her father wanted all those years", that might work. But as you described it, I don't think you could overestimate the psychic impact of such a revelation. It's not something I can see her experience without drastic and lasting consequences.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 octobre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Ieldra]

t3HPrO wrote...
Everytime I come here and see arguments about Miranda's creation, I look at my fic and go 'oh f*ck, this contrasts with my interpretation.' I seriously need to stop paying heed to these arguments...*bashes head repeatedly against table*

If I may ask, what is your interpretation?

[t3HPrO]

She was created to be the best there was, and everything except her biotics were there from the start. As soon as biotics were discovered, Miranda was implanted and then she was put through an ordeal when she was a teenager to enhance her biotic abilities. That will be in a later chapter of

my fic, which is delayed due to my fever. Crapdammit.

[t3HPrO]

And I agree, the infertility is pretty much the last straw for me.

[Jebel Krong]

quick genetics lesson: each x chromosome contains c. 150 million base pairs (that's about 2.5% of your total DNA), you can have information encoded that would only be realised in females, but males would still be carriers (so they could pass it on to their own children) - a good example is Haemophilia. However you can't guarantee odds, because the expression dominant/neutral/recessive requires a combination that may or may not be passed on. of course you could artificially guarantee the result with gene therapy, but i guess that would be besides the point.

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
quick genetics lesson: each x chromosome contains c. 150 million base pairs (that's about 2.5% of your total DNA), you can have information encoded that would only be realised in females, but males would still be carriers (so they could pass it on to their own children) - a good example is Haemophilia.

Switch male and female and it's correct. Hemophilia is caused by a defective X chromosome and almost never manifests in females because they have two of them. Traits manifesting only in females would be harder to realize through genetic engineering than the other way round. 

However you can't guarantee odds, because the expression dominant/neutral/recessive requires a combination that may or may not be passed on. of course you could artificially guarantee the result with gene therapy, but i guess that would be besides the point.

That's correct but doesn't account for switches. I don't know how they function, but genes can be switched on and off by other genes, and even by environmental factors. Lately it's been discovered that genes switched on or off by environmental factors can actually be passed on in the changed state, so the old rule that you can't pass on learned traits had to be modified. That's why I said the field is very complicated. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 octobre 2010 - 08:54 .

[Jebel Krong]

based on my other one:


@ Ieldra, yes i should have said, or reversed in the example i used. you can add colour-blindness in the same category and certain conditions of ricketts for the double XX expression. i did a helluva lot of genetics (good old drosophila fruit fly!) @ university, all those years ago...

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:16 .

[Arijharn]

I am probably guilty of using hubris incorrectly. You're right, I can't really believe that she is guilty of 'deadly pride' I meant it probably more as a form of arrogance (but not contemptible arrogance). I just remember how she was when you first meet her and she shoots Wilson and she says; "I thought you'd know by now, I'm never wrong Jacob" but... she can be. She's wrong about Niket, and she's wrong about being capable of maintaining the biotic barrier (which I never let her do anyway, Samara was just the natural fit -- and I liked Cerberus Tactician too much ), she's wrong (or maybe naive?) about what TIM is capable of when she's adamant that he wouldn't betray them on the Collector Cruiser, how there is a more palatable explanation on his actions.



As to piling on the issues, I may be guilty of this, but only because I want to see her emerge the stronger out of it (I wonder, could something like this be an example of how her father thinks? Wow, that's a pretty uncomfortable thought!) but in my musings I'm presuming that the other characters have an equal amount of 'added depth.'



I'm guessing though that I want something that my Shephard can help her through, to provide some sort of emotional support (which is probably what she's been lacking since Niket left her life... and I don't mean when Miranda or Erinayla (or whatever her name is) shoots him. ) I think in a way, this can provide character growth for not just Miranda and what I think of her character, but also Shephard himself as well.