15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

I get the impression that TIM probably guards Cerberus' independence quite fiercely. The deal if you're a donor is you hand over your money and just trust that TIM will do his job protecting humanity's interests. I don't think TIM would tolerate Miranda's father just "lending" Cerberus his daughter. Miranda isn't so useful that TIM would be willing to allow somebody else to meddle in his business.

I always thought the line where Niket mentions Miranda as still having spy programs in her father's network could be read as a chekov's gun for future exploration. But it could go the other way as well, as it is obvious Miranda doesn't know the detailed inner workings of Cerberus. A tacit secret understanding in which Miranda's father just monitor Miranda's moves for example wouldn't compromise the independence of Cerberus IMO. Just throwing this out.  

Ieldra2 wrote...
 
The third problem is that, well, enough *is* actually enough. As t3HPro said, it's piling up, and she's in danger of being turned into a different character. Also, I do not subscribe to the school of thought that flaws are more valuable in defining a character than virtues, and I don't want a Miranda who is a psychic wreck. I don't even want her to start that way so that she can show her strength of character by overcoming it. Her self-esteem issues and her infertility combined are serious enough that she definitely doesn't need any more major problems. At some point, it becomes unbelievable that she can still act competently.

Hehe, I think your gripe may also be compounded by the fact that the last 20 pages of this thread basically suggested a whole lot of possibilities that Miranda is more emotional than we'd originally imagined. But even the in-game examples are just our rationalisations while the rest are simply imaginary scenarios. Maybe we should ease off on all these high-intensity discussions for a bit.

Breakdown boy wrote...

Man this thread gets deeper and deeper everytime I drop by.

I was just thinking about that.  I visited a couple of other character threads and saw they're mostly comments in the form of one-liners, of motivationals and fan-art. Makes me wonder how many Miri-fans we scare away because our discussions invariably involve gigantic chunks of text, deep contextual and technical arguments. I can imagine people thinking of joining in, but then running away because they feel they have nothing to contribute or the stuff that flies around is just too much effort to attempt to decipher.  

Modifié par Elyvern, 06 octobre 2010 - 12:11 .

[Jebel Krong]

i'd rather have an in-depth discussion, with the occasional disagreement, than banal one-liners or simple "i love miranda" posts filling each page. fanart is nice everywhere - not miranda-related, but check this out: sole-survivor shepard, awesome.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:58 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

However you can't guarantee odds, because the expression dominant/neutral/recessive requires a combination that may or may not be passed on. of course you could artificially guarantee the result with gene therapy, but i guess that would be besides the point.

That's correct but doesn't account for switches. I don't know how they function, but genes can be switched on and off by other genes, and even by environmental factors. Lately it's been discovered that genes switched on or off by environmental factors can actually be passed on in the changed state, so the old rule that you can't pass on learned traits had to be modified. That's why I said the field is very complicated.

Thank you for the elaborations, all of you. This basically fulfills what I need for my story. Gonna cut and paste the arguments from this page into a file for reference.

Arijharn wrote...

I just remember how she was when you first meet her and she shoots Wilson and she says; "I thought you'd know by now, I'm never wrong Jacob" but... she can be. She's wrong about Niket, and she's wrong about being capable of maintaining the biotic barrier (which I never let her do anyway, Samara was just the natural fit -- and I liked Cerberus Tactician too much ), she's wrong (or maybe naive?) about what TIM is capable of when she's adamant that he wouldn't betray them on the Collector Cruiser, how there is a more palatable explanation on his actions.

At the expense of turning this into a can of worms, I agree with you mostly. I've always had the problem when she says "I'm never wrong" because the game has proven again and again that she is wrong. I discount the incident about which biotic to make the bubble because she did qualify what she said about it and I see her problems as more with regards to human motivations. 

Modifié par Elyvern, 06 octobre 2010 - 12:01 .

[t3HPrO]

I prefer a much more emotional Miranda, but not one with psych problems. Being a current psychology module student, I know for a fact that any mental illness, no matter how seemingly insignificant, will adversely affect an individual's performance at some point. So it's quite unbelievable for me.

[Arijharn]

But is her finding out that her dad can work around her or using her arrogance (for a want of a better word) that insurmountable? I can just imagine him standing there possibly even attempting to lecture her on her mistakes (one that he probably has no right to make) and her, despite it all just sort of taking it, remembering her past and what it was like.... I'm making that actually sound psychologically beating her, but I think that with the encouragement of Shephard throughout their journey together she just summons the will to just say: "enough!"

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
I am probably guilty of using hubris incorrectly. You're right, I can't really believe that she is guilty of 'deadly pride' I meant it probably more as a form of arrogance (but not contemptible arrogance). I just remember how she was when you first meet her and she shoots Wilson and she says; "I thought you'd know by now, I'm never wrong Jacob" but... she can be. She's wrong about Niket, and she's wrong about being capable of maintaining the biotic barrier (which I never let her do anyway, Samara was just the natural fit -- and I liked Cerberus Tactician too much ), she's wrong (or maybe naive?) about what TIM is capable of when she's adamant that he wouldn't betray them on the Collector Cruiser, how there is a more palatable explanation on his actions.

In my post above, I've written "I would hate Miranda expressing more of that", exactly because I'm aware she's already shown some arrogance by being wrong several times after having said "I'm never wrong". More problems caused by others are OK to a point, but I don't think she needs more or stronger character flaws.

As to piling on the issues, I may be guilty of this, but only because I want to see her emerge the stronger out of it (I wonder, could something like this be an example of how her father thinks? Wow, that's a pretty uncomfortable thought!) but in my musings I'm presuming that the other characters have an equal amount of 'added depth.'

The problem particularly with overconfidence/arrogance is that Miranda's character concept includes a *real* level of super-competence, so you can't tone down her competence too much without turning her into someone else. To add to that, her competence is one of the main reasons why I like her. So, whatever her father's reasons, I would not like her to be overly confident in her knowledge of him and then proven wrong. I'd rather have her emotional insecurity played up when facing the problem of her father, because, well, he's her father after all. That would give her a problem without impinging on her competence.

I'm guessing though that I want something that my Shephard can help her through, to provide some sort of emotional support (which is probably what she's been lacking since Niket left her life... and I don't mean when Miranda or Erinayla (or whatever her name is) shoots him. ) I think in a way, this can provide character growth for not just Miranda and what I think of her character, but also Shephard himself as well.

I guess almost everyone wants that. But faced with a romance which is "not based on need", that requires a careful balance. There can't be even a hint of your typical damsel-in-distress scenario.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
But is her finding out that her dad can work around her or using her arrogance (for a want of a better word) that insurmountable? I can just imagine him standing there possibly even attempting to lecture her on her mistakes (one that he probably has no right to make) and her, despite it all just sort of taking it, remembering her past and what it was like.... I'm making that actually sound psychologically beating her, but I think that with the encouragement of Shephard throughout their journey together she just summons the will to just say: "enough!"

I think jtav and I have been over a scenario where she believes she has some really bad trait in her worst moments - without actually having it, at least not to that degree. I can see that scene with her father happening, but it does not require her to actually have any flaw he accuses her of, only to be emotionally insecure enough in the presence of her father to believe his accusations for a moment or so. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 octobre 2010 - 01:02 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
 
The third problem is that, well, enough *is* actually enough. As t3HPro said, it's piling up, and she's in danger of being turned into a different character. Also, I do not subscribe to the school of thought that flaws are more valuable in defining a character than virtues, and I don't want a Miranda who is a psychic wreck. I don't even want her to start that way so that she can show her strength of character by overcoming it. Her self-esteem issues and her infertility combined are serious enough that she definitely doesn't need any more major problems. At some point, it becomes unbelievable that she can still act competently.

Hehe, I think your gripe may also be compounded by the fact that the last 20 pages of this thread basically suggested a whole lot of possibilities that Miranda is more emotional than we'd originally imagined. But even the in-game examples are just our rationalisations while the rest are simply imaginary scenarios. Maybe we should ease off on all these high-intensity discussions for a bit.

I admit that didn't help. When I read over the last 20 pages or so, I see there's a danger of her turning more and more into the stereotypical "emotional woman who needs help" in some people's perception. I shouldn't need to mention that we really shouldn't go there.

Apart from that, maybe a screenshot will help a bit. I can't see the scenic view, but it seems Miranda can...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 octobre 2010 - 01:16 .

[Ieldra]

Here's a lighter topic for a change:



If your Shepard and Miranda stay together after the Reapers are defeated, where will they make their home? I don't suggest they'll become homey - likely they won't spend much time there - but they'll have one. So, where and what will it be? And why?

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
 
The third problem is that, well, enough *is* actually enough. As t3HPro said, it's piling up, and she's in danger of being turned into a different character. Also, I do not subscribe to the school of thought that flaws are more valuable in defining a character than virtues, and I don't want a Miranda who is a psychic wreck. I don't even want her to start that way so that she can show her strength of character by overcoming it. Her self-esteem issues and her infertility combined are serious enough that she definitely doesn't need any more major problems. At some point, it becomes unbelievable that she can still act competently.

Hehe, I think your gripe may also be compounded by the fact that the last 20 pages of this thread basically suggested a whole lot of possibilities that Miranda is more emotional than we'd originally imagined. But even the in-game examples are just our rationalisations while the rest are simply imaginary scenarios. Maybe we should ease off on all these high-intensity discussions for a bit.

I admit that didn't help. When I read over the last 20 pages or so, I see there's a danger of her turning more and more into the stereotypical "emotional woman who needs help" in some people's perception. I shouldn't need to mention that we really shouldn't go there.

Nice screenshot. Here's another interpretation that would go the other direction instead: her to coming to terms that she's been letting her emotions affect her judgement of human motivations. In the case of TIM, her fervour for Ceberus's cause and his obvious acumen could have blinded her to his more ruthless side. For Niket, it was the importance she'd place on him as her only childhood friend, and perhaps her failure to recognise that her reading of him was entirely based on her flawed judgement as a teenager. Many things can serve as push and pull factors at the same time.

[Jebel Krong]

somewhere like Illium seems to be a logical choice for perhaps a more permanent base, but (assuming it survives), the Normandy would probably carry on as 'home', depending on what Shepard does at the end of the trilogy. I'd see him carrying on as a Spectre, personally, so it would make sense.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 06 octobre 2010 - 01:33 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's a lighter topic for a change:

If your Shepard and Miranda stay together after the Reapers are defeated, where will they make their home? I don't suggest they'll become homey - likely they won't spend much time there - but they'll have one. So, where and what will it be? And why?

This would depend on the nature of their work post-reapers. I can think of many things for Miranda to do: scientific research, participating or running black ops, secret project leader, taking over Cerberus or what's left of it post-war, a civilian position in alliance high command--so many possibilities. It's that much harder for Shepard though. With the crazy profile he'll have post-reapers, nothing short of an Alliance or Council posting would do, anything else will be going backwards. In either case, a highly populated center would be most ideal. 

I know it's never said outright, but I also imagine that Miranda is quite an urban person. I think she is actually very fastidious from her comment on Omega. She'd be probably partial to living in a technologically advanced and highly civilised world like Illium. Or maybe she could return to Earth (assuming the episode with her father is ever resolved).
 
I'd also imagine that she and Shep will have more than one home in the galaxy. They could have a "summer home" kind of place in a more advanced agricultural colony like Eden Prime, they may go spend time with Oriana (who is studying to be a terraformer) or if your Shepard has a mother, visit Hannah Shepard once in a while.

Modifié par Elyvern, 06 octobre 2010 - 01:54 .

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
somewhere like Illium seems to be a logical choice for perhaps a more permanent base, but (assuming it survives), the Normandy would probably carry on as 'home', depending on what Shepard does at the end of the trilogy. I'd see him carrying on as a Spectre, personally, so it would make sense.

I admit I didn't think much about what would be the logical choice. By purely intuitive preference:

Their working home would be TIM's space station (assuming TIM has gone elsewhere, of course). Good connections to everywhere, nice view, and remote enough that the media can't come calling every morning. But they'd also have a retreat on Chasca, up on the mountains near the prothean pyramid, for times when they want to get away from everything. BTW, not all of my Shepards are Spectres anymore.

@Elyvern:
Your impression that Miranda is urban is something I noticed I share as soon as I read it. But I also think she's only occasionally sociable. Yep, they'd need more than one hometwo homes. I also assumed that Miranda will continue more or less in the same line of work. I didn't think about Shepard's work at all (Oops).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 octobre 2010 - 01:57 .

[Jebel Krong]

yeah the big problem is what shepard is doing - Miranda (as not the player character) is more defined in what she does, so anything that suits that - certainly a certain urbanity and 'connectedness' to the wider galaxy would be required for her - hence the choice of Illium. the planet in Kasumi's DLC would also make a good choice, as it's close to the Citadel (relatively speaking) and is humanity's own version of Illium, according to the description (so perhaps would be even more favourable). Apart from having a spaceship, perhaps somewhere like Noveria? commercial, lots of science going on (and intrigue) and i'm sure the skiing is excellent!

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 06 octobre 2010 - 02:05 .

[jtav]

I tend to pile a lot on Miranda. Just taking my current story as an example:

*Her brain doesn't work quite the same as a normal human's because of the greybox. She has an eidetic memory, but she also accesses those memories differently. She'll never admit it, but she's haunted by fears that she's psychopathic/inhuman. The fact that she does black ops doesn't help.
*The first person she ever cared for romantically took her father's money and left for university without her.
*She spent a significant chunk of age ten in the hospital and nearly died.
*She was about to be committed to an asylum when she ran away.

Her infertility bothers her, but mostly as a something that further separates her from humanity. Mostly, this manifests as making her extremely cynical and exxpecting anything that makes her happy to blow up in her face. It takes her a long time to act on her feelings for Liara. She also has a dry sense of humor, is very good with computers, drives too fast, and loves fashion.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
somewhere like Illium seems to be a logical choice for perhaps a more permanent base, but (assuming it survives), the Normandy would probably carry on as 'home', depending on what Shepard does at the end of the trilogy. I'd see him carrying on as a Spectre, personally, so it would make sense.

I admit I didn't think much about what would be the logical choice. By purely intuitive preference:

Their working home would be TIM's space station (assuming TIM has gone elsewhere, of course). Good connections to everywhere, nice view, and remote enough that the media can't come calling every morning. But they'd also have a retreat on Chasca, up on the mountains near the prothean pyramid, for times when they want to get away from everything. BTW, not all of my Shepards are Spectres anymore.

@Elyvern:
Your impression that Miranda is urban is something I noticed I share as soon as I read it. But I also think she's only occasionally sociable. Yep, they'd need more than one hometwo homes. I also assumed that Miranda will continue more or less in the same line of work. I didn't think about Shepard's work at all (Oops).

With enough money and resources, you can still maintain a relatively secluded life despite being in a densely populated urban center. Miranda's desire for privacy can still be achieved, Besides, advantages like ease of transport (local or galactic), good communication systems, higher quality of life would be big selling points.

I confess I harbour a desire for her to go back to Earth though because of what was stated in her development file on the wiki--that she is one of few characters that hail from Earth. I doubt that is actually true (in ME universe terms)because Earth has 16 billion in population, and none of the human colonies can even make a blip to such a number, but Earth being the motherland and originating planet of humanity just have that mystical appeal especially in the light of her transhuman origins.

Modifié par Elyvern, 06 octobre 2010 - 02:19 .

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's a lighter topic for a change:

If your Shepard and Miranda stay together after the Reapers are defeated, where will they make their home? I don't suggest they'll become homey - likely they won't spend much time there - but they'll have one. So, where and what will it be? And why?

To me it would be earth. I play earthborn shepards, and I think it would be interesting for them to be back home after so much time spent in space and on other planets.
I also hope we'll see earth in ME3.

[jtav]

My mental epilogue has Miranda on the Citadel or Illium. Somewhere with lots of different kinds of people and easy access to all the comforts of urban life. Exact details vary on who I'm pairing her with.

[Prudii Aden]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Here's a lighter topic for a change:

If your Shepard and Miranda stay together after the Reapers are defeated, where will they make their home? I don't suggest they'll become homey - likely they won't spend much time there - but they'll have one. So, where and what will it be? And why?

I'm guessing they'll stay together, but have multiple homes. They'd have one on the Citadel, certainly, Bekenstein (the human Illium) and Illium as 'main homes' as it were, and likely Earth as well. This lot they'd likely use as their 'public' or 'semi-public' homes - i.e. somewhere they can entertain guests and so forth if they have to or want to, but if they want privacy, it'd have to be Inta'sei - the place Shep got if you completed Pinnacle Station. It's quiet, the planet is sparsely populated and they could relax, be themselves, destress and depressurise, without the pressure of being "The Saviours of the Galaxy!".

As to jobs? No doubt they could do whatever the heck they damned well pleased!

[Elyvern]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Here's a lighter topic for a change:

If your Shepard and Miranda stay together after the Reapers are defeated, where will they make their home? I don't suggest they'll become homey - likely they won't spend much time there - but they'll have one. So, where and what will it be? And why?

I'm guessing they'll stay together, but have multiple homes. They'd have one on the Citadel, certainly, Bekenstein (the human Illium) and Illium as 'main homes' as it were, and likely Earth as well. This lot they'd likely use as their 'public' or 'semi-public' homes - i.e. somewhere they can entertain guests and so forth if they have to or want to, but if they want privacy, it'd have to be Inta'sei - the place Shep got if you completed Pinnacle Station. It's quiet, the planet is sparsely populated and they could relax, be themselves, destress and depressurise, without the pressure of being "The Saviours of the Galaxy!".

As to jobs? No doubt they could do whatever the heck they damned well pleased!

Now that you mention it, I wonder how much of that "Saviours of the Galaxy" status will impede on their private lives. Assuming Shepard is the instrumental key towards the reapers' defeat in ME3, he'll not just be a legend, he'll be a frickking messiah. Even if his status doesn't reach religious levels, I can't see how he can do any job that doesn't involve working with a galactic organisation (Alliance or Council). Any work he does for a private organisation will be influenced or even hampered by his status. I can't even imagine him working black ops because he'd be too well-known. And working for an alien government would be really controversial.

I'm also thinking that both of them probably didn't have any places they call home after their childhood, and that their concept of home would lie more with the people they care about, than physical places. A city or a space station as their base of operations would probably be one, and they'd probably have another retreat to get away from the fame/infamy.

I'm also inclined to think that while Miranda is likely to find a job that has her mostly in one place, a Shepard working with the Alliance or Council would probably be constantly away from her and their home.

[jtav]

I usually reverse that, interestingly. Miranda's job takes her all over the galaxy while her partner stays in one place. I think Miranda's contributions will remain largely unknown and she'll be untroubled by paparazzi and able to do as she pleases.

[Caihn]

Earth... reminds me a ME3 cover art I made one day :

Modifié par Yannkee, 06 octobre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Now that you mention it, I wonder how much of that "Saviours of the Galaxy" status will impede on their private lives. Assuming Shepard is the instrumental key towards the reapers' defeat in ME3, he'll not just be a legend, he'll be a frickking messiah. Even if his status doesn't reach religious levels, I can't see how he can do any job that doesn't involve working with a galactic organisation (Alliance or Council). Any work he does for a private organisation will be influenced or even hampered by his status. I can't even imagine him working black ops because he'd be too well-known. And working for an alien government would be really controversial.

That was why I thought they'd like a home not so close to the hubs of civilization. I'm with jtav on this one. Miranda will continue to travel the galaxy and do behind-the-scenes work, but Shepard will be a political figure, like it or not, which means he can't work as a Spectre anymore. Given his undeniable charisma, I guess he'd be a good mediator in major political conflicts, or a Councillor. Else I see few other options that to go very far away, which is another scenario I envision: mounting a major expedition to explore unknown regions of the galaxy (something long overdue), with a ship large enough to be a colony on its own. I guess Aethyta would be delighted to tag along as well.
 

I'm also thinking that both of them probably didn't have any places they call home after their childhood, and that their concept of home would lie more with the people they care about, than physical places. A city or a space station as their base of operations would probably be one, and they'd probably have another retreat to get away from the fame/infamy.

As I said - TIM's space station and whichever scenic retreat you find most beautiful. But no space cows

BTW, back tp Earth sounds appealing, but it's too packed with people. If Earth really has 16 billion, it's no wonder humanity is desperate for colonies, though in the long run, that won't save them from the necessity for birth control.

@Yannkee:
Those two on the ME3 cover. That's a dream scenario. Probably won't happen

Edit:
I'm currently playing Miranda's loyalty mission. It hasn't lost any of its appeal. Recommended to get back on the ground mentally after certain forum discussions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 octobre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Aedan1992]

The first thing i want Shepard and Miranda to do is going on a long vacation together without anyone else. When the reapers are destroyed or atleast the cycle has ended i don't think there is anyone else who can threat the galaxy. Of course eventualy they will go working again, but let them first have a break after everything they have done.

[Prudii Aden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That was why I thought they'd like a home not so close to the hubs of civilization. I'm with jtav on this one. Miranda will continue to travel the galaxy and do behind-the-scenes work, but Shepard will be a political figure, like it or not, which means he can't work as a Spectre anymore. Given his undeniable charisma, I guess he'd be a good mediator in major political conflicts, or a Councillor.

I can see Shep being some variety of Ambassador or one of the Councillors, but I also have this image of him being used as a "break glass in case of emergency" kind of Spectre. Yeah, he's visible (and then some), but he'd also serve as a kind of deterrent (perhaps in a similar manner to WMD's etc).

Still, I can't really picture them working side by side a lot. Everyone needs time to themselves, and if you spend your working day with your other half, what are you going to talk about when you get home?

The dinner table discussions in the Shepard-Lawson household would be something else I'm sure...