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[t3HPrO]

Ieldra2 wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

she's not that socially awkward (and certainly her upbringing would have included how to behave in society), she just has relationship/trust issues.

Yeah, I never meant it to be that awkward. But she still is kinda socially awkward and doesn't really know how to deal with people.

She does. She say herself she's a good judge of character. While she clearly shows she's not perfect, I think she has self-knowledge enough to not say that if her social competence was low. She is listed as having many contacts throughout the galaxy, and you don't get there without knowing how to deal with people. It only gets awkward for her if she becomes too emotionally involveld. 

Actually, when she does business, she is a good judge of character, Anything else and she's most likely lost, due to her father being something of a 'Prospero', only that he didn't even allow a 'Ferdinand' in, which means she has almost 0 or exactly 0 experience. And honestly speaking, I think that Miranda sabotaged her relationship with Jacob without even realising it due to her lack of personal handling experience.

[Ieldra]

t3HPrO wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Another observation: Why is it that any mention of sex, even as an afterthought, spawns debates like this? I didn't mean much when I posted how I envisioned the background of Miranda in my fanfics. I definitely didn't want to start another pointless debate about how many sex partners Miranda might have had.

Perhaps I should make no more mention of sex in this thread. It just shows that David Hume was right: reason is the slave of the passions. And one person's healthy sex life is another's depravity. It seems I'm one of those inclined to a general "more is better" attitude. Relationships aside, in a society with prevalent birth control where STDs have almost completely vanished there is no reason not to have sex just for fun any chance you get.

I disagree. That would display the fact that people have no self control, which is a bad thing. So if a man/woman sees someone of the opposite sex that they like, they jump into bed for a night. Another one catches his/her eyes and poof, one nighter. And the cycle repeats itself on and on...we are just as good as dogs in heat. It's the lack of self control that I'm hitting back atm, not the act.

Let me ask you this: is there a convincing reason for being overly controlling with yourself regarding sex, apart from not getting addicted? Many people drink beer every day, still most of them don't become alcoholics. I see no reason not to apply the same reasoning to sex.
Our image of how much sex is good has been shaped by thousands of years of indoctrination telling us that sex is a problem. Well, it has been, resulting in unwanted pregancies, STDs etc.. But both aren't problems any more in the ME universe, so applying as much "self-control" isn't that important any more.
BTW, I dislike how most mainstream fiction avoids to touch the social implications of technological development. This is just one example. I envision people in the ME universe in general to exhibit a *much* more relaxed attitude to sex.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 octobre 2010 - 10:23 .

[Jebel Krong]

t3HPrO wrote...

Actually, when she does business, she is a good judge of character, Anything else and she's most likely lost, due to her father being something of a 'Prospero', only that he didn't even allow a 'Ferdinand' in, which means she has almost 0 or exactly 0 experience. And honestly speaking, I think that Miranda sabotaged her relationship with Jacob without even realising it due to her lack of personal handling experience.

nah she did that because he's bland and only after "the priize".. 

[Ieldra]

t3HPrO wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

she's not that socially awkward (and certainly her upbringing would have included how to behave in society), she just has relationship/trust issues.

Yeah, I never meant it to be that awkward. But she still is kinda socially awkward and doesn't really know how to deal with people.

She does. She say herself she's a good judge of character. While she clearly shows she's not perfect, I think she has self-knowledge enough to not say that if her social competence was low. She is listed as having many contacts throughout the galaxy, and you don't get there without knowing how to deal with people. It only gets awkward for her if she becomes too emotionally involveld. 

Actually, when she does business, she is a good judge of character, Anything else and she's most likely lost, due to her father being something of a 'Prospero', only that he didn't even allow a 'Ferdinand' in, which means she has almost 0 or exactly 0 experience. And honestly speaking, I think that Miranda sabotaged her relationship with Jacob without even realising it due to her lack of personal handling experience.

Human contacts are human contacts, it doesn't matter if it's business or not, you learn how to deal with people unless you're in a formal hierarchy. Miranda has contacts all over the galaxy, made through her work as a Cerberus operative. You think she wouldn't know what makes people tick except in the few cases where her own emotions mislead her? Certainly not. She's been described as a spy. To be one, being able to deal with people is very first thing you learn, and then some. It may be through a professional attitude, but you'll get to know people just as well, perhaps even better, than if you invest emotions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 octobre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Arijharn]

Hmm, sex is obviously enjoyable, so I guess strictly speaking it could therefore become addictive ("Hi, I'm Tiger Woods. I have recently sampled a cavalcade of world-class vagina's and for that I'm truly sorry") and even Colin Firth I think has sort 'treatment' for the addiction, but I'm not sure if you could classify it in quite the same way as say addiction to drugs because it's just seems so ridiculous for some reason.



But this is besides the point, I can't imagine Miranda being 'addicted' to it other than occasional pressure blowing I suppose, and that to me at least makes her normal, not abnormal.

[NovaZero]

No, I think she took her personal handling just fine.



... then moved on.

[t3HPrO]

Jebel Krong wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...

Actually, when she does business, she is a good judge of character, Anything else and she's most likely lost, due to her father being something of a 'Prospero', only that he didn't even allow a 'Ferdinand' in, which means she has almost 0 or exactly 0 experience. And honestly speaking, I think that Miranda sabotaged her relationship with Jacob without even realising it due to her lack of personal handling experience.

nah she did that because he's bland and only after "the priize".. 

Lolzage.

[t3HPrO]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Let me ask you this: is there a convincing reason for being overly controlling with yourself regarding sex, apart from not getting addicted? Many people drink beer every day, still most of them don't become alcoholics. I see no reason not to apply the same reasoning to sex.
Our image of how much sex is good has been shaped by thousands of years of indoctrination telling us that sex is a problem. Well, it has been, resulting in unwanted pregancies, STDs etc.. But both aren't problems any more in the ME universe, so applying as much "self-control" isn't that important any more.
BTW, I dislike how most mainstream fiction avoids to touch the social implications of technological development. This is just one example. I envision people in the ME universe in general to exhibit a *much* more relaxed attitude to sex.

I'm not so sure...while this relaxed attitude may hold true for some, Miranda will not partake in wanton sexual activity, as it will actually make her feel even more disconnected from her body than be connected. Because if she has lots of cheap, wanton sex like you say she does, she will feel that her body doesn't belong to her, but to dozens of men whom she has no attachment to whatsoever.  And her father's strict restriction will be imprinted irrevocably onto a young Miranda's mind(and we all know how impressionable kids and young teenagers are), and she will carry that into adulthood. So yes, some sex is great, but too much spoils it all.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
Hmm, sex is obviously enjoyable, so I guess strictly speaking it could therefore become addictive ("Hi, I'm Tiger Woods. I have recently sampled a cavalcade of world-class vagina's and for that I'm truly sorry") and even Colin Firth I think has sort 'treatment' for the addiction, but I'm not sure if you could classify it in quite the same way as say addiction to drugs because it's just seems so ridiculous for some reason.

But this is besides the point, I can't imagine Miranda being 'addicted' to it other than occasional pressure blowing I suppose, and that to me at least makes her normal, not abnormal.

Agreed. This debate is more about if having "a lover in every port" can be considered normal (as contrasted to "abnormal", not to "rare"). My answer would tend to "yes" for people who haven't emotionally committed to a relationship. It's also OK as long as all know where they stand.

@t3HPrO:
"Cheap" and "wanton" are terms including a value judgment I do not at all associate with having sex. They also have no agreed upon definition and are mainly used to discredit people, so I do not know what you mean. Please put it in neutral and well-defined terms.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 octobre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Another observation: Why is it that any mention of sex, even as an afterthought, spawns debates like this? I didn't mean much when I posted how I envisioned the background of Miranda in my fanfics. I definitely didn't want to start another pointless debate about how many sex partners Miranda might have had.

Perhaps I should make no more mention of sex in this thread. It just shows that David Hume was right: reason is the slave of the passions. And one person's healthy sex life is another's depravity. It seems I'm one of those inclined to a general "more is better" attitude. Relationships aside, in a society with prevalent birth control where STDs have almost completely vanished there is no reason not to have sex just for fun any chance you get.

I disagree. That would display the fact that people have no self control, which is a bad thing. So if a man/woman sees someone of the opposite sex that they like, they jump into bed for a night. Another one catches his/her eyes and poof, one nighter. And the cycle repeats itself on and on...we are just as good as dogs in heat. It's the lack of self control that I'm hitting back atm, not the act.

Even if you allow that she has a dozen sexual encounters - that's 1 lay a year. How is that remotely close to being a nymphomaniac? And this isn't an issue about self control, definitely not for Miranda. It has been established that she has a lot of self-control. Her cold professionalism contrasts so strongly with her forwardness and enthusiasm with Shepard in the romance scene seems to suggest too much self control in fact, to the point that you can even say she compartmentalises her behaviour and her life. But it is a successful way of control because she never lets her personal wants compromise her professional capability.

Like any scenario we have talked about constantly in this thread, all extrapolations of personality are valid as long as they don't actively go against character moments in-game. This is just one of them. Your arguing that Miranda wouldn't engage in much sex has little basis in-game. And the reasons for your reservations also seem contrary to existing evidence. Ieldra's speculation is perfectly valid in how a person's sense and ownership of their body, issues of self identity inform their behaviour and their attitude towards physical engagements. Examples of this in effect is amply shown in the character of Jack. And while we can agree that Jack and Miranda likely have different issues, Jack indulges in casual sex, or dare we even say hate sex, is evidence that yes, that issues of body perception leading to a specific sexual behaviour is a possibility writers have acknowledged.

[t3HPrO]

Elyvern wrote...

Like any scenario we have talked about constantly in this thread, all extrapolations of personality are valid as long as they don't actively go against character moments in-game. This is just one of them. Your arguing that Miranda wouldn't engage in much sex has little basis in-game. And the reasons for your reservations also seem contrary to existing evidence. Ieldra's speculation is perfectly valid in how a person's sense and ownership of their body, issues of self identity inform their behaviour and their attitude towards physical engagements. Examples of this in effect is amply shown in the character of Jack. And while we can agree that Jack and Miranda likely have different issues, Jack indulges in casual sex, or dare we even say hate sex, is evidence that yes, that issues of body perception leading to a specific sexual behaviour is a possibility writers have acknowledged.

What Ieldra seems to be suggesting is that Miranda gets at least two different c**ks every week. That's a bit much if you ask me, especially since it's with different partners instead of just one. And according to ingame info, Miranda is one of the highest level operatives, and the Illusive Man passes a lot of ops to her. There just isn't much time for casual sex, especially since Miranda will most likely be highly stressed during an op as well. And also, we know from ingame her standards are really effin' high, so just any random lay isn't gonna cut it. Once again narrowing the scope.

[t3HPrO]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@t3HPrO:
"Cheap" and "wanton" are terms including a value judgment I do not at all associate with having sex. They also have no agreed upon definition and are mainly used to discredit people, so I do not know what you mean. Please put it in neutral and well-defined terms.

Okay, casual sex. Poor word choices there. Anyways, every time a woman has sex, her subconscious will automatically say 'ok, a piece of me now belongs to him'. So I don't see how Miranda having lots of sex will make her feel life she belongs to herself. I'm being serious here, I'm saying this from actual psychological findings.

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Like any scenario we have talked about constantly in this thread, all extrapolations of personality are valid as long as they don't actively go against character moments in-game. This is just one of them. Your arguing that Miranda wouldn't engage in much sex has little basis in-game. And the reasons for your reservations also seem contrary to existing evidence. Ieldra's speculation is perfectly valid in how a person's sense and ownership of their body, issues of self identity inform their behaviour and their attitude towards physical engagements. Examples of this in effect is amply shown in the character of Jack. And while we can agree that Jack and Miranda likely have different issues, Jack indulges in casual sex, or dare we even say hate sex, is evidence that yes, that issues of body perception leading to a specific sexual behaviour is a possibility writers have acknowledged.

What Ieldra seems to be suggesting is that Miranda gets at least two different c**ks every week. That's a bit much if you ask me, especially since it's with different partners instead of just one. And according to ingame info, Miranda is one of the highest level operatives, and the Illusive Man passes a lot of ops to her. There just isn't much time for casual sex, especially since Miranda will most likely be highly stressed during an op as well. And also, we know from ingame her standards are really effin' high, so just any random lay isn't gonna cut it. Once again narrowing the scope.

I believe that Ieldra's concept of Miranda being more actively engaged in sex was far earlier in her life, after she escapes from her father in Ieldra's fic. Until we see more of it, you cannot say that she was inducted into Ceberus immediately, or that she is one of Cerberus's highest operatives right from the start.

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@t3HPrO:
"Cheap" and "wanton" are terms including a value judgment I do not at all associate with having sex. They also have no agreed upon definition and are mainly used to discredit people, so I do not know what you mean. Please put it in neutral and well-defined terms.

Okay, casual sex. Poor word choices there. Anyways, every time a woman has sex, her subconscious will automatically say 'ok, a piece of me now belongs to him'. So I don't see how Miranda having lots of sex will make her feel life she belongs to herself. I'm being serious here, I'm saying this from actual psychological findings.

I actually read psychology in university as well. And Jack has already amply proven that that is one of the coping mechanisms, yet nobody seems to have problems with it?  

[t3HPrO]

Elyvern wrote...

I believe that Ieldra's concept of Miranda being more actively engaged in sex was far earlier in her life, after she escapes from her father in Ieldra's fic. Until we see more of it, you cannot say that she was inducted into Ceberus immediately, or that she is one of Cerberus's highest operatives right from the start.

I never said that she was a high flyer from the start. However, it would be 100% logical(which Miranda is) to immediately induct herself into Cerberus to protect herself and Oriana from her father. Every hour she remains solo is an added risk. She would most likely get her virginity taken away a few months into Cerberus, not immediately after she runs as her priority is to protect herself and Oriana. Also, it would be totally OOC for Miranda to pop into a bar full of gigolos and get her virginity taken away while she and her sister are still on the run.

[t3HPrO]

Elyvern wrote...

I actually read psychology in university as well. And Jack has already amply proven that that is one of the coping mechanisms, yet nobody seems to have problems with it?  

Because it's been explicitly stated that she's been raped. Most women who've been raped will decouple emotions from sex as not doing so would force them to relive painful memories. Miranda, on the other hand, has not been stated to have been a rape victim. And Miranda is insecure about her body being hers, Jack is not. There's quite a big divide there.

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

I believe that Ieldra's concept of Miranda being more actively engaged in sex was far earlier in her life, after she escapes from her father in Ieldra's fic. Until we see more of it, you cannot say that she was inducted into Ceberus immediately, or that she is one of Cerberus's highest operatives right from the start.

I never said that she was a high flyer from the start. However, it would be 100% logical(which Miranda is) to immediately induct herself into Cerberus to protect herself and Oriana from her father. Every hour she remains solo is an added risk. She would most likely get her virginity taken away a few months into Cerberus, not immediately after she runs as her priority is to protect herself and Oriana. Also, it would be totally OOC for Miranda to pop into a bar full of gigolos and get her virginity taken away while she and her sister are still on the run.

Seeing as we aren't even talking about canon events now, I don't think your speculation as to what Miranda would do as opposed to someone else's idea carries more weight here, I'm afraid. There can be many reasons why she wouldn't/couldn't join Cerberus immediately. Also, do you really think a 16 year old would act as rationally as the 35 year old version of herself? 

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

I actually read psychology in university as well. And Jack has already amply proven that that is one of the coping mechanisms, yet nobody seems to have problems with it?  

Because it's been explicitly stated that she's been raped. Most women who've been raped will decouple emotions from sex as not doing so would force them to relive painful memories. Miranda, on the other hand, has not been stated to have been a rape victim. And Miranda is insecure about her body being hers, Jack is not. There's quite a big divide there.

Actually, Miranda's first sexual experience in Ieldra's fic was a near-rape.

[t3HPrO]

Elyvern wrote...

Actually, Miranda's first sexual experience in Ieldra's fic was a near-rape.

Which never happened. Also, Miranda is far smarter than others her age. That's why she would be more level headed and act more rationally.

[Aedan1992]

Elyvern wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@t3HPrO:
"Cheap" and "wanton" are terms including a value judgment I do not at all associate with having sex. They also have no agreed upon definition and are mainly used to discredit people, so I do not know what you mean. Please put it in neutral and well-defined terms.

Okay, casual sex. Poor word choices there. Anyways, every time a woman has sex, her subconscious will automatically say 'ok, a piece of me now belongs to him'. So I don't see how Miranda having lots of sex will make her feel life she belongs to herself. I'm being serious here, I'm saying this from actual psychological findings.

I actually read psychology in university as well. And Jack has already amply proven that that is one of the coping mechanisms, yet nobody seems to have problems with it?  

Jack is like that because she has been used so many times by diffrent people. The reason that people don't about it is because jack is jack. Every time i see miranda's face when she see's her sister i can't image her as someone who would use people just for sex.

[t3HPrO]

Anyways, it's your fic. Run wild. I'm just putting in my PoV.

[Arijharn]

Elyvern wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@t3HPrO:
"Cheap" and "wanton" are terms including a value judgment I do not at all associate with having sex. They also have no agreed upon definition and are mainly used to discredit people, so I do not know what you mean. Please put it in neutral and well-defined terms.

Okay, casual sex. Poor word choices there. Anyways, every time a woman has sex, her subconscious will automatically say 'ok, a piece of me now belongs to him'. So I don't see how Miranda having lots of sex will make her feel life she belongs to herself. I'm being serious here, I'm saying this from actual psychological findings.

I actually read psychology in university as well. And Jack has already amply proven that that is one of the coping mechanisms, yet nobody seems to have problems with it?  

It's simple isn't it? This is a Miranda thread so people feel more attached to Miranda compared to what they feel in regards to Jack.

I don't think she 'had a lot of ****s' while on the run from her father though, if only because of the SB dossier painted her as being incredibly picky -- I don't see why that would have been only a relatively recent development. Personally I got the impression that because her father was so controlling down to maybe the minutae of her life, then I find it unlikely that she started to sleep with a comparatively high number of people during her fugitive status, if only because her father (and her belief of what he'd approve of) is so ingrained on her psyche that she probably wouldn't be able to exorcise herself from him at that moment in her life. She's running from him, but she's also shackled to him in some way.

[t3HPrO]

Aedan1992 wrote...

Jack is like that because she has been used so many times by diffrent people. The reason that people don't about it is because jack is jack. Every time i see miranda's face when she see's her sister i can't image her as someone who would use people just for sex.

Agreed. Jack has been used both willingly and UNwillingly for sex by others countless times. Miranda, on the hand, has not used even 1/10th of the number of people Jack has used. Don't get me wrong, Jack isn't a skank. She just has a skewed perspective on sex and love, like Miranda, albeit that Miranda has a less skewed one.

[t3HPrO]

Arijharn wrote...

It's simple isn't it? This is a Miranda thread so people feel more attached to Miranda compared to what they feel in regards to Jack.

I don't think she 'had a lot of ****s' while on the run from her father though, if only because of the SB dossier painted her as being incredibly picky -- I don't see why that would have been only a relatively recent development. Personally I got the impression that because her father was so controlling down to maybe the minutae of her life, then I find it unlikely that she started to sleep with a comparatively high number of people during her fugitive status, if only because her father (and her belief of what he'd approve of) is so ingrained on her psyche that she probably wouldn't be able to exorcise herself from him at that moment in her life. She's running from him, but she's also shackled to him in some way.

A-F**KING-greed.

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Actually, Miranda's first sexual experience in Ieldra's fic was a near-rape.

Which never happened. Also, Miranda is far smarter than others her age. That's why she would be more level headed and act more rationally.

Seriously, unless you are the writer and are in the position to justify certain behaviours pertinent to the moment as well as confirm the occurance of events that would support your hypothesis, you really cannot make such statements and expect them to be valid, especially when you're speculating on the unknown. Perhaps this judgement would be more appropriate after giving Ieldra the opportunity to write and engage his narrative authority first.  

I also think we're going out of line: making a highlight of another person's fanfic and criticising it like we would for canon work. Let's just stop now please. It could be you or me under the firing squad here.

Modifié par Elyvern, 07 octobre 2010 - 11:24 .