15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

Forgive my lack of caffeine, it could be either... in any case, google the picture, it's totally the imagery I get from that sort of statement.

[t3HPrO]

@Ieldra2

Disagree with you, Miranda's decision was completely IC. She already expresses disgust for the way the colonists were experimented on and killed on the Collector Ship, and after finding out (surprise surprise)that TIM only regarded her as an expendable tool made her loyalty waver. Add that to the fact that she knows for sure that TIM will conduct even more gruesome experiments on the colonists(given Cerberus' track record), and the fact that Shepard's been changing her perception that Cerberus is always doing the best for humanity, and you get a disillusioned, disgruntled Miranda who's ready to throw in the towel.

[Arijharn]

The thing is, they all knew it could be a suicide mission, that's why Kelly was placed where she was. The way you say it makes Miranda to be a fair-weather friend if anything else, only able to do those sort of things when it isn't her on the line.

[Jebel Krong]

the end decision being totally contrived in either case, Miranda's eventual decision is slightly ooc (and reasoning badly worded), but understandable - especially if you're not doing a "perfect" run-through, and again - especially if you took her to the collector ship, for example. it's one of those things in game-design that result in a little shoehorning of characters that sometimes happens, but it's really no different to her relatively quick softening on shepard at the beginning in that respect.

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

@Ieldra2
Honestly, I don't care if Miranda had sex with other men besides Shepard. But I dislike the way that people are making her out to be an easy woman whose on the prowl for sex every night, and that she can't keep her libido in check. Really, hearing the way some people talk about Miranda, you'd think that she slept with almost every man in the Terminus.

Really, why does it matter what other people think? And contrary to your worst-case scenario, most people became more sympathetic of Miranda after reading her dossier, and most people could accept that she's a sexually active woman who has high standards. That's not a slur in any remote way. And I'm sorry, but I cannot help but notice when this topic comes up, you have a tendency to exaggerate it to the point where you posit Miranda as having a new sexual partner every night. What was given to us is a far cry from such an extreme. We had a series of dossiers where she rejects all but one and suddenly she's a sex-starved addict? How did your conclusion come about? Apologies I brought it up again, but I really had to say this.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Aedan1992 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

I hope Bioware will release something about Miranda quickly, so we can discuss something more interesting than these stupid dossiers.

Damm right. And as for the collector base we can discus it for eternity, but it doesn't change the game. For me its definatly not OOC and it seems that the writer thought the same.

IMO, it went like this:
Writer 1: "How can Miranda still be part of Shepard's team after a Paragon Shepard destroyed the base? OK....we'll make her change her mind."
Writer 2: "Wouldn't that be OOC? You know - Cerberus loyalist, her sister. You won't even make it depend on her loyalty mission."
Writer 1: "Doesn't matter. The game is almost over."
Writer 2: "I disagree, but this will spawn heavy disagreements among fans. That will be fun to watch. Let's do it."

@Ieldra - I agree entirely with what you've said so far.  Although I wouldn't give credit to the writers thinking so far as to generate controversy among fans, they likely stopped at "doesn't matter. the game is almost over." That something is likely planned to write Miranda out of Cerberus if Shepard chooses to destroy the base is a given, but the handling is so badly done. I've said just about what I needed to say in that thread, and I agree with Arijharn that the explanation for her behaviour begs to be explored come the Ceberus & TIM conflict, even though it's likely we'd never get it.

Personally, I wish the discussion didn't take place in a off-topic thread because it was great to see more points of view on what is admittedly an old issue. But the only reason why the topic feels old is because we are the same few people arguing everything to ad nauseum. There are alot of non-fans (and non-trolls) who have insightful things to say about everything we've discussed here, they just don't frequent this thread. I just wish that we could pose the question in a proper thread of its own, unfortunately that also opens the door for trolls looking for an easy score.

[t3HPrO]

Elyvern wrote...

Really, why does it matter what other people think? And contrary to your worst-case scenario, most people became more sympathetic of Miranda after reading her dossier, and most people could accept that she's a sexually active woman who has high standards. That's not a slur in any remote way. And I'm sorry, but I cannot help but notice when this topic comes up, you have a tendency to exaggerate it to the point where you posit Miranda as having a new sexual partner every night. What was given to us is a far cry from such an extreme. We had a series of dossiers where she rejects all but one and suddenly she's a sex-starved addict? How did your conclusion come about? Apologies I brought it up again, but I really had to say this.

Problem is, the way you guys talk about Miranda having sex gives me the idea that you're stating her to be doing as such. You guys are like: 'She has experience! She gets lots of it!' And thank God you've only met those who think that Miranda deserves sympathy after reading her dossier. Best you avoid YouTube to keep it that way.

[Ieldra]

t3HPrO wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Really, why does it matter what other people think? And contrary to your worst-case scenario, most people became more sympathetic of Miranda after reading her dossier, and most people could accept that she's a sexually active woman who has high standards. That's not a slur in any remote way. And I'm sorry, but I cannot help but notice when this topic comes up, you have a tendency to exaggerate it to the point where you posit Miranda as having a new sexual partner every night. What was given to us is a far cry from such an extreme. We had a series of dossiers where she rejects all but one and suddenly she's a sex-starved addict? How did your conclusion come about? Apologies I brought it up again, but I really had to say this.

Problem is, the way you guys talk about Miranda having sex gives me the idea that you're stating her to be doing as such. You guys are like: 'She has experience! She gets lots of it!' And thank God you've only met those who think that Miranda deserves sympathy after reading her dossier. Best you avoid YouTube to keep it that way.

What I can't understand is why people persist in making this a topic. OK, maybe I understand it on a purely intellectual level, but my first answer to the question of how much sex Miranda had and with whom would be "Does it matter?" Maybe I'm just too European for the majority of people on these forums, but I really think, and what's more important, I feel that it doesn't matter.

The femme fatale aspect written into her character requires Miranda to be experienced. While I won't go back behind that, "experienced" has a wide range of interpretation, a range I wouldn't like to limit by speculating about numbers. That's what our imagination is for so we can each have our version of Miranda in our minds. Apart from that, I'd like to stress that her sex life before Shepard is not Shepard's, not ours to judge, it should not matter at all, and I couldn't care less about the opinion of misogynistic idiots on youtube or anywhere else. Their mind is set anyway whatever you say, and I refuse to pander to their overblown sensibilities.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 octobre 2010 - 12:55 .

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Really, why does it matter what other people think? And contrary to your worst-case scenario, most people became more sympathetic of Miranda after reading her dossier, and most people could accept that she's a sexually active woman who has high standards. That's not a slur in any remote way. And I'm sorry, but I cannot help but notice when this topic comes up, you have a tendency to exaggerate it to the point where you posit Miranda as having a new sexual partner every night. What was given to us is a far cry from such an extreme. We had a series of dossiers where she rejects all but one and suddenly she's a sex-starved addict? How did your conclusion come about? Apologies I brought it up again, but I really had to say this.

Problem is, the way you guys talk about Miranda having sex gives me the idea that you're stating her to be doing as such. You guys are like: 'She has experience! She gets lots of it!' And thank God you've only met those who think that Miranda deserves sympathy after reading her dossier. Best you avoid YouTube to keep it that way.

Now that's exaggerating the extent and numbers usually posted or speculated in this thread. You constantly bring up examples of her having sex every night or twice every week. When did we ever say she has 365 or 104 sexual encounters with different partners a year? Numbers almost never come up, and when they do, they are simply indicative of a sexually comfortable woman with a healthy sex life. You can argue that details do count, but in your case, it's like saying 5000 miles is the same as 500 miles because they're both long distances, which cannot be further from the truth. I can understand that your personal preferences may colour your perception, but try not to blow them out of proportions. It serves no purpose. And why would you need to care about trolls spamming one-liners and expletives on youtube? That's what trolls do, disgorge the same blanket assertions again and again, and scurrying like roaches away from the light of better judgement. All they do is make me want to laugh at them.

[Aedan1992]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Does it matter?" Maybe I'm just too European for the majority of people on these forums, but I really think, and what's more important, I feel that it doesn't matter.
 

I'm also European, but i can understand why people are uncomfertable by it. 

[t3HPrO]

I give up. You people never even really understand what I'm saying. *Gives up and leaves*

[Caihn]

t3HPrO wrote...

@Ieldra2
Disagree with you, Miranda's decision was completely IC. She already expresses disgust for the way the colonists were experimented on and killed on the Collector Ship, and after finding out (surprise surprise)that TIM only regarded her as an expendable tool made her loyalty waver. Add that to the fact that she knows for sure that TIM will conduct even more gruesome experiments on the colonists(given Cerberus' track record), and the fact that Shepard's been changing her perception that Cerberus is always doing the best for humanity, and you get a disillusioned, disgruntled Miranda who's ready to throw in the towel.

I completely agree with you.

[Arijharn]

But, she most likely has been involved with other morally ambiguous things in the past as well, not the least of which is the eventual resurrection of Shephard (or is that okay because it's Shephard? What if it wasn't Shephard but Nahrali Bhatia?)



Her having doubts is understandable, but her giving up the base was just not pragmatic (given what we face), unless at some point she mentions that it was decided by emotional responses. I don't think she should be Shephard's toadie any more than she should be TIM's in all honesty.

[t3HPrO]

She isn't Shepard's toadie, but she's disgusted by what she sees the Collectors doing to the colonists. She doesn't want them to be experimented on further by Cerberus, and the only way to do that was to let Shepard blow up the base. After all, if anyone knows how ruthless TIM is, she would know. And add that to the fact that she doesn't trust TIM anymore, but trusts Shepard more. Simple math.

[Caihn]

t3HPrO wrote...

I give up. You people never even really understand what I'm saying. *Gives up and leaves*

Don't give up
This thread needs more people with different opinions. I know sometimes it's difficult to stay here, but too many people already left for similar reasons.

[Axestone]

Yannkee

Don't give up
This thread needs more people with different opinions. I know sometimes it's difficult to stay here, but too many people already left for similar reasons.

...even harder to have own opinion and do not show it to others because of language barrier.

Modifié par Axestone, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:23 .

[Elyvern]

Yannkee wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...

I give up. You people never even really understand what I'm saying. *Gives up and leaves*

Don't give up
This thread needs more people with different opinions. I know sometimes it's difficult to stay here, but too many people already left for similar reasons.

I agree with yannkee.  A thread where everyone agrees with each other spells death and stagnation. My post was just to illustrate my desire that everyone should try and take/put things into proper perspective even when someone else posts an opinion that differs greatly from theirs. It saves the need to nitpick on unreliable assertions which leads to a dangerous tendency of seeing the differing opinion as a baseless personal attack. Which should, hopefully, never be the case.

Modifié par Elyvern, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:27 .

[t3HPrO]

@Axestone

That would suck big time.

[t3HPrO]

And I give up as in I give up talking about how ridiculous those dossiers are. Btw, anyone know anything about anymore DLCs?

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...
I give up. You people never even really understand what I'm saying. *Gives up and leaves*

Don't give up
This thread needs more people with different opinions. I know sometimes it's difficult to stay here, but too many people already left for similar reasons.

I have to agree with this. This also seems to be more a matter of talking past one another than a serious disgreement about Miranda. It needs to be cleared up I think.

As for people having left, I think we're behaving civilly enough that people should not feel they must leave, even if we come across strongly with arguments at times. I'm actually trying not to bring up the contentious issues on my own, but if someone else does, you wouldn't really expect me to keep my opinion to myself, would you?

[jtav]

I have something that may be of interest to some people here.

Title: Persistence of Memory (1/8)
Pairings: Miranda/Liara, past FemShep/Liara and Miranda/OC
Rating: R
Warnings: violence, some discussion of child abuse in later chapters
Summary: Liara has information critical to restoring Shepard. Miranda will do  anything to get it. She'll even teach Liara how not to get killed. Facing her own past-and her attraction to Liara-was never part of the bargain.

Modifié par jtav, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:31 .

[Ieldra]

t3HPrO wrote...
And I give up as in I give up talking about how ridiculous those dossiers are.

You can't imagine how much I wish we could put Miranda's dossier off as nonexistent.

[Prudii Aden]

Pretty much all of us think that Miranda's dossier is off or wrong, in one way or another, however, I think that's the nearest to unanimous agreement that you'll get. Trying for more will likely only frustrate you, which I'm sure you don't want.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I have something that may be of interest to some people here.

Title: Persistence of Memory (1/8)
Pairings: Miranda/Liara, past FemShep/Liara and Miranda/OC
Rating: R
Warnings: violence, some discussion of child abuse in later chapters
Summary: Liara has information critical to restoring Shepard. Miranda will do  anything to get it. She'll even teach Liara how not to get killed. Facing her own past-and her attraction to Liara-was never part of the bargain.

Thank you! This is going to be interesting. Likely I won't have time to review it today, but you'll get some feedback. I'll also link it in the OP.

[Mox Ruuga]

I've spent some time today, reading up stuff on the various character fandom threads.

This is the one I spent the longest time on. Heh, perhaps too much time! I've always liked Miranda, but if possible, this thread has made her even better for me. I kinda identify with jtav's vision of her the most.

Bond as played by Daniel Craig, if Craig was a woman who looked like Strahovski. "The coldest blood runs through her veins" etc.  And believe me, I am being sincere when I say I like her for the self accepted darkness of her soul, as well as the softer qualities that shine through with Oriana etc. And no, I don't mean she and Craig!Bond share the exact same traits, but the "feel" I get is the same. Too bad they cheesed Miranda up with the gratituous ass shots and the engine room sex scene (I have no problem with the casual relations through the dating service). Makes it too easy for people to dismiss her...

I think she consents to be the "rough woman ready to perform violent acts, so decent people can sleep peacably during the night". That IMO is her vision of Cerberus, that false quotation usually attributed to Orwell. She knows what she does is often morally suspect or even outright repugnant, but if humanity is to survive, what are her own scruples and "soul" but a trifle, easily sacrificed?

Damn... Now I'm hoping we'll get a LotSB style DLC for her as well... Perhaps for her and Jacob? If the hypothetical Virmire Survivor is the Alliance bridging DLC, the Miri (and Zoidberg--- I mean Jacob) DLC would be the Cerberus tie in.

I read your Liara/Miranda fic, jtav. I like, very much!  Sorry for not reviewing it on the site itself, but I don't have an account. I hope to read more soon! I had been actually thinking of this same idea as you seem to have been, a non-Shepard pairing for a canon LI. In my case it was Liara, since I can't stand Feron for various reasons. I settled for Alenko as well, tho he would be a good match for Miranda as well. Liara herself is an interesting choice for Miranda... Not immediatly obvious, but as I said I liked the fic.

So many seem to kneejerk when alternate pairings are even suggested for a canon LI (and like I said, I loathe Feron myself so I'm really not one to speak)...