15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
The ice-queen persona is a damn cliche, but of the characters in ME2, Miranda has a lot of potential to become a different person than who she is at the start. The only other who can outstrip her capacity for change is a paragon-romanced Jack. So I'm not too worried about her staying static. On the contrary, my fear lies in her becoming too emotional, lose her moral ambiguitiy, her competence, her pragmatism, all in no particular order. So far, it seems that becoming too emotional might be the biggest danger, and Bioware has proven they can and do get things wrong with characterisation.

Growth is always welcome, but not at the expense of sacrifcing the four points I feel constitutes her core character.  

QFT. It bears repeating.

[Mox Ruuga]

A "Paragonized" Miranda would be, IMHO, a travesty.

Ergh, her decision to quit Cerberus at the end, should Shepard not want to keep the base bodes ill...

I can see scenarios where she would quit Cerberus, but the way it was done in ME2 was more for cutscene dramatics' sake, another victim to the "Shep Force of Personality". An emotional decision in the heat of the moment, unless she had been seriously considering quitting the org all along... And this was just the last straw.

[Caihn]

*facepalm*

[Mox Ruuga]

Yannkee wrote...

*facepalm*

Um, was that for me?

Everything I write here is just my opinion, we can agree to disagree!

I just don't like Miri softened... There are enough soft women in the game already.

[jtav]

Forgetting for a moment that this is the game that has to allow for different player choices, you know what I would've liked? For Overlord or pick your favorite Cerberus atrocity to be something that Miranda had a hand in in the planning stages, before any moral lines were crossed. She sees what's happened and is horrified by how her work was used. She passes it off as the work of a few individuals, but the doubts remain. Every cell except her own seems to be both incompetent and unethical. If she lets TIM have the base, odds are good that she's just guaranteed that another atrocity will occur.

[RiptideX1090]

jtav wrote...

Forgetting for a moment that this is the game that has to allow for different player choices, you know what I would've liked? For Overlord or pick your favorite Cerberus atrocity to be something that Miranda had a hand in in the planning stages, before any moral lines were crossed. She sees what's happened and is horrified by how her work was used. She passes it off as the work of a few individuals, but the doubts remain. Every cell except her own seems to be both incompetent and unethical. If she lets TIM have the base, odds are good that she's just guaranteed that another atrocity will occur.

This is the kind of development I'd have loved to have seen from Miranda.

And a bit more from Jacob as well.

[Caihn]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

*facepalm*

Um, was that for me?

Everything I write here is just my opinion, we can agree to disagree!

I just don't like Miri softened... There are enough soft women in the game already.

Yes it was for you.

Miranda can be consider less pragmatic, and not become a full Paragon / soft woman. 
It's always black or white for you, never grey.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

Forgetting for a moment that this is the game that has to allow for different player choices, you know what I would've liked? For Overlord or pick your favorite Cerberus atrocity to be something that Miranda had a hand in in the planning stages, before any moral lines were crossed. She sees what's happened and is horrified by how her work was used. She passes it off as the work of a few individuals, but the doubts remain. Every cell except her own seems to be both incompetent and unethical. If she lets TIM have the base, odds are good that she's just guaranteed that another atrocity will occur.

Speaking hypothetically, it would make for great dramatic conflict if she knows another atrocity will occur, but she still has to give the base to TIM. Besides, isn't that the exact scenario of your fic, the one that's linked to your sig? 

Modifié par Elyvern, 12 octobre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Yannkee wrote...

Yes it was for you.

Miranda can be consider less pragmatic, and not become a full Paragon / soft woman. 
It's always black or white for you, never grey.

No need to get so antagonistic, my good man.

In my opinion Miranda is already a gray character. So far all "development" has been towards the "white" side, if you want to call Paragonization that.

I don't want the ruthless and independent woman to constantly keep losing her edge (not that anything terminal has happened. Yet). I like the sharp bits, even though they can cut you if you aren't careful...

[jtav]

Guilty as charged, Elyvern. I still like the idea, though I'd handle it differently now. That was pretty much written in a fit of rage after reading one too many stories where Miranda was a fluffy bunny and one in particular where she did have a minor role in Akuze and Sole Survivor Shep forgave her without hesitation.



And I really should change my sig.

[RiptideX1090]

Mox Ruuga wrote...



No need to get so antagonistic, my good man.

In my opinion Miranda is already a gray character. So far all "development" has been towards the "white" side, if you want to call Paragonization that.

I don't want the ruthless and independent woman to constantly keep losing her edge (not that anything terminal has happened. Yet). I like the sharp bits, even though they can cut you if you aren't careful...

As with every character, I want Miranda to have multiple development arcs through 3.

An arc where you can "Paragon" her into taking over Cerberus and using it strictly for humanitarian efforts would be great. But only if likewise, you can Renegade her into taking it from the Illusive Man and using it to put, and keep humanity on top.

Other options would be great.

I'd just like to see her develop as a character, and have multiple ways of going about doing it.

Same with every character.

3 will be the game to do it.

[Elyvern]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

As with every character, I want Miranda to have multiple development arcs through 3.

An arc where you can "Paragon" her into taking over Cerberus and using it strictly for humanitarian efforts would be great. But only if likewise, you can Renegade her into taking it from the Illusive Man and using it to put, and keep humanity on top.

Unless you're willing to rescind Cerberus's role as a black ops organisation, I doubt it's possible to use it strictly for humanitarian efforts. Black ops will inevitable involve a certain degree of wetwork and clandestine operations that are neccessary even if they may be morally unacceptable. I think a compromise must be achieved with regards to that.

I don't think its neccessary to be as ruthless as TIM to achieve the goals Cerberus intended under his direction either. Given that we may see a change in leadership to Cerberus which will include an accounting of their operations, I don't see how likely it is that Miranda or anyone who takes over can continue to run it like TIM did.

I've always wondered if ME should include the option of "hardening" squadmates like DAO does. Since I don't read the DAO forums, I'm not sure how Alistair or Leliana fans react to the canonical variables introduced in such an approach on top of every player's already differing interpretation. Take it too far and you'd fall into the danger of diluting what may be the core characteristics of a character. Of course the ME writers could rationalise that it doesn't matter because it's the end of the trilogy, but it would leave me very conflicted if I must live with a character variation that clashes with what I feel is the intrinsic nature of my favourite characters.

Modifié par Elyvern, 12 octobre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Ieldra]

@RiptideX1090:

Different options would be nice, but I maintain that both extremist options would be derailing her character. She's neither an idealist nor a xenophobe.



Also, the image of a Cerberus concerned with humanitarian stuff I can't take seriously. I can imagine it being less ruthless than it currently is, with things like Teltin, Aite or Akuze not happening any longer, and if Miranda were behind such a change I would like it. But at it's core Cerberus is a black-ops unit, the reason they exist is because sometimes questionable methods must be employed. You can move the slider a little towards less ruthlessness, but you can't move it to the extreme without destroying the concept.

[Zulu_DFA]

@ mirandologists



Re: Jacob.



Don't you think that it actually could have been him, who discontinued the relationship? Hence, iPartners. Hence, indecisiveness about going for it with Shepard. Hence, hostile reaction if Shepard sides with Jack during the catfight.



???

[Elyvern]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ mirandologists

Re: Jacob.

Don't you think that it actually could have been him, who discontinued the relationship? Hence, iPartners. Hence, indecisiveness about going for it with Shepard. Hence, hostile reaction if Shepard sides with Jack during the catfight.

???

In the first place, I don't buy that the dating dossiers or her reaction at siding with Jack have anything to do with whatever Miranda's relationship was with Jacob. She could just be looking to relieve stress, and I think Jack was arguably more culpable by resorting to physical force. Siding with Jack could easily be construed as Shepard making a grossly partial judgement. The only one that may have relevance is her reluctance to accept Shepard's advances, but only in the sense of her being cautious from a previous experience with workplace fraternising. 

Judging from the wistful-ness and regret that both parties exhibit, and Jacob's somber "she needs a better man than me" line, I think either both agreed to end the relationship on friendly terms, or it was Miranda who decided to end it. It's far harder to suggest the other way because while he reveals a sense of inadequacy about their relationship, she never shows any trace of negativity against him. There's no way to make definitive statements in an absence of evidence.

Modifié par Elyvern, 12 octobre 2010 - 09:54 .

[PrinceLionheart]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Forgetting for a moment that this is the game that has to allow for different player choices, you know what I would've liked? For Overlord or pick your favorite Cerberus atrocity to be something that Miranda had a hand in in the planning stages, before any moral lines were crossed. She sees what's happened and is horrified by how her work was used. She passes it off as the work of a few individuals, but the doubts remain. Every cell except her own seems to be both incompetent and unethical. If she lets TIM have the base, odds are good that she's just guaranteed that another atrocity will occur.

This is the kind of development I'd have loved to have seen from Miranda.

And a bit more from Jacob as well.

There's always ME3. That'd be an excellent side-mission for those two.

[Zulu_DFA]

What I'm basing my assumption on mainly is Jacob's "She needs a better man."

See, from a manly man's PoV it's a painful kick in the quad when a woman says: "You're not good enough".

And bear in mind that Jacob says that line to FemShep too and then hits on her.

So maybe Jacob's full story is not that "Miranda told me I'm not good enough, I'm such a loser...", but rather "I was a dick to her, I'm such a bad boy [to FemShep] / hope she's more lucky with you [to ManShep] ..."

Also think through that whole conversation in this light: there were more than one thing Miranda had promised and more than one of the promises could be fulfilled by the Gernsback data.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 octobre 2010 - 10:51 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
So maybe Jacob's full story is not that "Miranda told me I'm not good enough, I'm such a loser...", but rather "I was a dick to her, I'm such a bad boy [to FemShep] / hope she's more lucky with you [to ManShep] ..."

To me, it came off like the break-up is mutual. Jacob comes off as an emotionally distant person. It's part of his character. He doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeves like the rest of his squadmates. It's the reason why he's so scarce about talking about his past, and even during the romance, opening up to Shep.

Miranda is a character who actually does carry a lot of emotional baggage. She has a massive Inferiority Complex. From the way Jacob described it, it sounds like the two tried to work it out, but they just weren't right for each other. 

[Elyvern]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

What I'm basing my assumption on mainly is Jacob's "She needs a better man."

See, from an manly man's PoV it's a painful kick in the quad when a woman says: "You're not good enough".

And bear in mind that Jacob says that to FemShep too and then hits on her.

So maybe Jacob's full story is not that "Miranda told me I'm not good enough, I'm such a loser...", but rather "I was a dick to her, I'm such a bad boy [to FemShep] / hope she's more lucky with you [to ManShep] ..."

Also think through that whole conversation in this light: there were more than one thing Miranda had promised and more than one of the promises could be fulfilled by the Gernsback data.

I think the scenario you envision is even more unlikely in the sense that Miranda is very self sufficient and assertive about what she considers as her right and authority. She doesn't exhibit emotional neediness in a relationship with Shepard, and Shepard has a more compelling presence and status as a love interest than Jacob. Not to mention Shepard is her superior officer while Jacob is her subordinate as well. To imagine that she would willingly subject herself to emotional trauma in an relationship with someone like Jacob (whatever your notion of being a dick is) is almost impossible. Also, my point about the lack of evidence from her would come even more strongly into play here.

That's all I can say for now, because I'm not exactly sure how you want the conversation read. Right now, the way the principal characters react feels to me like Miranda was trying to compensate Jacob somehow, which would again substantiate that she was the one who initiated the break up.  

Modifié par Elyvern, 12 octobre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Shoudda taken this whole stuff to Jacob's thread, lol!

[Elyvern]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Shoudda taken this whole stuff to Jacob's thread, lol!

Not sure how I'm supposed to take that since I don't frequent the Jacob thread. Was my rationalisations not to your satisfaction? 

Edit: Just thought of another point that would go against your theory: she wouldn't be able to say "I should know your conscience would get the better of you" with the candour she displays, given that you interpreted Jacob's line as a confession conditional on his conscience, and a possible reason for his break-up with Miranda. If there is one thing Miranda doesn't do, it's subterfuge. She never fails to make her sentiments clear, even in situations where she's better served lying or keeping quiet.

Modifié par Elyvern, 13 octobre 2010 - 12:12 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Elyvern wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Shoudda taken this whole stuff to Jacob's thread, lol!

Not sure how I'm supposed to take that since I don't frequent the Jacob thread. Was my rationalisations not to your satisfaction? 

Edit: Just thought of another point that would go against your theory: she wouldn't be able to say "I should know your conscience would get the better of you" with the candour she displays, given that you interpreted Jacob's line as a confession conditional on his conscience, and for his break-up with Miranda. If there is one thing Miranda doesn't do, it's subterfuge. She never fails to make her sentiments clear, even in situations where she'd better served lying or keeping quiet.

No, it's all right. Just really fishing for opinions here.
I remember there was a thread once (before LotSB) about that Jacob's line, but I can't recall the name.

Regarding your another point. That could mean anything, including an acknowledgement that Jacob indeed felt remorse (for being a dick), or a subtle reproach that it's not enough, or pointless (now that it's over)... or just chewing him up for his attiude towards Cerberus with no double bottom to it.

Look at my another point: How about Jacob's dad? That one was (is) a king of dicks! Sure, Jacob was trying not to be like that, but you can't really beat you genes!

[t3HPrO]

Wow. I just saw someone laughing at Miranda's infertility. Goddamn douchebags these days...

[Prudii Aden]

t3HPrO wrote...

Wow. I just saw someone laughing at Miranda's infertility. Goddamn douchebags these days...

Why do you let this affect you?

[Elyvern]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No, it's all right. Just really fishing for opinions here.
I remember there was a thread once (before LotSB) about that Jacob's line, but I can't recall the name.

I remember that thread. OP was a player who felt insulted by Jacob's line while playing femshep. Unfortunately, I can't recall the thread title either.

Regarding your another point. That could mean anything, including an acknowledgement that Jacob indeed felt remorse (for being a dick), or a subtle reproach that it's not enough, or pointless (now that it's over)... or just chewing him up for his attiude towards Cerberus with no double bottom to it.

Look at my another point: How about Jacob's dad? That one was (is) a king of dicks! Sure, Jacob was trying not to be like that, but you can't really beat you genes!

If Jacob manages to hurt her to the extent of feeling personal remorse, I can't imagine Miranda would be so casual or magnimanous about it. She doesn't turn pushover when hurt emotionally. Just look at Niket or what she says in the romance conflict scene. And I'll buy her gently chewing up Jacob for his anti-Cerberus attitude only if his conscience wasn't the driving factor in his decision to break up with her, or she wasn't aware that it drove his decision according to your theory. No matter, I was trying to cover all bases here, heh.

Modifié par Elyvern, 13 octobre 2010 - 12:43 .