15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Prudii Aden]

Entirely possible Jebel, however I picked centuries simply because I'm guessing it became an actual part of strategy 500 years or so ago.

[t3HPrO]

@Zulu_DFA

Actually, Miranda is 16 when Oriana was born(35-19=16). So whatni think went down is that Miranda waited a year or two till Oriana was older than just a few months before she ran away with her, thus making Miranda 17/18 when this happens. And no, you cannot hear the convo because it isn't ingame, and it's obvious Oriana doesn't even know Miranda because Miri had to introduce herself to Oriana.

[Ieldra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I did think that you thought. That's why I thought it was dismissed. But instead you dismissed the entire in-game timeline. In order to justify a single figure on a promo-page that's clearly erronneous about other things, including pure gameplay issues (see Vanguard's powers there). I'm disappoint.

If you'd read beyond "the easy answer", you'd have noticed that we did not dismiss the timeline - though admittedly it deserves to be dismissed.

That "19+19" argument does not hold, because Miranda could kidnap her sister not at age 0 but up to 9-10 years.

Miranda about Oriana: "Shepard... I think I owe you an explanation. oriana is my twin, genetically. But my father... grew her when I was a teenager."
Next line: "She's not a child; she'll be 19 this year."
That means, taken literally, that Miranda was between 13 and 19 when Oriana was grown. It has nothing to do with the question of when Miranda took Oriana away. That this would make Miranda 35 plus/minus three is a coincidence. Or perhaps not, but we'd have dismissed the promo site in favor of in-game sources had there been a contradiction.

@t3HPro:
There is no in-game support for Miranda's age being 16 when she ran. I made that up for my fanfic.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:51 .

[Elyvern]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I did think that you thought. That's why I thought it was dismissed. But instead you dismissed the entire in-game timeline. In order to justify a single figure on a promo-page that's clearly erronneous about other things, including pure gameplay issues (see Vanguard's powers there). I'm disappoint.

You misunderstood. As far as I know, only Ieldra and I are interested in the transhumanism angle in Miranda's background. And I was re-establishing the points made in our prior discussion for the benefit of newcomers. The most important fact being: it's near impossible for Miranda to be a (non-retroengineered) genetic biotic unless we seriously change or ignore the timeline.

That "19+19" argument does not hold, because Miranda could kidnap her sister not at age 0 but up to 9-10 years. That's actually way more likely, because Miranda had to have some serious emotional investment in her sister to take such a decision. And she had to be not a total stranger to Oriana, or there would be no talk after the loyalty mission. (BTW, can you hear what they are talking about, or is it just fade-out/fade-in? Because for some reason I always said "Mission complete, return to base. On the double, Ms Lawson!")

[Shrugs.]

It was explicitly stated that Miranda kidnapped Oriana when she was a baby.

Merc Leader: You took a baby from the richest guy in the galaxy, lady. I don't know what your damage is, but you're not getting away with it.

Modifié par Elyvern, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:53 .

[Zulu_DFA]

t3HPrO wrote...

@Zulu_DFA
Actually, Miranda is 16 when Oriana was born(35-19=16). So whatni think went down is that Miranda waited a year or two till Oriana was older than just a few months before she ran away with her, thus making Miranda 17/18 when this happens. And no, you cannot hear the convo because it isn't ingame, and it's obvious Oriana doesn't even know Miranda because Miri had to introduce herself to Oriana.

Hmmm. That's interesting. It would indeed confirm that Oriana was a toddler, when Miranda kidnapped her...

However, before I have checked it out for myself and shut up, I'd like to notice, that it would mean only that Miranda was more about getting back at her father than making it up to her sister... And that would make even less sence for the daddy to go after Oriana, especially if he was indeed such a charcoal-hearted ****** as Miranda described... Because, he could just write both Miranda and Oriana off as his regular contributions to Cerberus, get whatever the reward the contributors receive, and then just clone another "daughter", engineering her to be more in line with his agenda.

And Zaeed ain't 40.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda about Oriana: "Shepard... I think I owe you an explanation. oriana is my twin, genetically. But my father... grew her when I was a teenager."
Next line: "She's not a child; she'll be 19 this year."

"Grew her" = "Miranda 10 ->16, Oriana 4 -> 10"

What's the problem?

Ieldra2 wrote...

@t3HPro:
There is no in-game support for Miranda's age being 16 when she ran. I made that up for my fanfic.

I think there is. Miranda's line "Old enough to know it was what I wanted" strongly implies that she was not of legal age, but old enough to succeed in running away and be taken seriously by Cerberus (that wouldn't care much about the legal side of things).

Elyvern wrote...

It was explicitly stated that Miranda kidnapped Oriana when she was a baby.

Merc Leader: You took a baby from the richest guy in the galaxy, lady. I don't know what your damage is, but you're not getting away with it.

"Baby" can actually have a wider meaning than "nurseling" or "toddler". Especially when it's a girl. Especially when it comes from a merc who can't have a very clear understanding of what he is talking about, since he is there for the pay.

I wouldn't call that "explicit".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Ieldra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda about Oriana: "Shepard... I think I owe you an explanation. oriana is my twin, genetically. But my father... grew her when I was a teenager."
Next line: "She's not a child; she'll be 19 this year."

"Grew her" = "Miranda 10 ->16, Oriana 4 -> 10"

What's the problem?

You want to be contrary, don't you? You know very well how "grow" is to be taken in this context. The calculation in the FAQ stands, there's really no way around it unless you start to change the meaning of words or ignore in-game information. Even if you take "teenager" a little less literally, usually girls aren't called that unless they show noticable signs of puberty, which would let her start at about the same age as if you'D take it literally.

Ieldra2 wrote...

@t3HPro:
There is no in-game support for Miranda's age being 16 when she ran. I made that up for my fanfic.

I think there is. Miranda's line "Old enough to know it was what I wanted" strongly implies that she was not of legal age, but old enough to succeed in running away and be taken seriously by Cerberus (that wouldn't care much about the legal side of things).

It's a plausible speculation, yes. But it could easily have been 15 or 17. There is no in-game support for exactly 16.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:47 .

[Ieldra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I'd like to notice, that it would mean only that Miranda was more about getting back at her father than making it up to her sister...

Making it up to her sister was never the objective. Saving her from the same life she ran away from was. She didn't owe her sister, not even in her own mind.

And that would make even less sence for the daddy to go after Oriana, especially if he was indeed such a charcoal-hearted ****** as Miranda described... Because, he could just write both Miranda and Oriana off as his regular contributions to Cerberus, get whatever the reward the contributors receive, and then just clone another "daughter", engineering her to be more in line with his agenda.

Yes, that's indeed something that needs to be explained. We usually take his extreme possessiveness as the reason, which isn't altogether uncommon in controlling fathers. Still, it's not satisfying. It remains an open question.

And Zaeed ain't 40.

I knew you'd bring that up eventually Very likely he isn't, indeed. But that doesn't mean the Bioware site is incorrect in every other character's age.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda about Oriana: "Shepard... I think I owe you an explanation. oriana is my twin, genetically. But my father... grew her when I was a teenager."
Next line: "She's not a child; she'll be 19 this year."
[/quote]
"Grew her" = "Miranda 10 ->16, Oriana 4 -> 10"

What's the problem?[/quote]
You want to be contrary, don't you?
[/quote]
No. It just so happens.


[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
You know very well how "grow" is to be taken in this context.
[/quote]
I think "grow" means "raise", rather than "conceive and incubate".


[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote][quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

@t3HPro:
There is no in-game support for Miranda's age being 16 when she ran. I made that up for my fanfic. [/quote]

I think there is. Miranda's line "Old enough to know it was what I wanted" strongly implies that she was not of legal age, but old enough to succeed in running away and be taken seriously by Cerberus (that wouldn't care much about the legal side of things).[/quote]
It's a plausible speculation, yes. But it could easily have been 15 or 17. There is no in-game support for exactly 16.[/quote]
I agree. But, personally, I go by "16" too, only to me Miranda turned 16 in 2176.

There is another consideration why Miranda can't have been with Cerberus for 20 years. For such an intelligent person, 20 years is a very long time. She would have either "snapped" about TIM's ruthlessness long ago, or wouldn't be succeptible to Shepard's paragonizing at all. The "weaker underside" of personality can't last that long. Not many projects in Cerberus seem to be "ethical" enough for her to remain ignorant for so long. 10 years, however, is not so much.


[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
And that would make even less sence for the daddy to go after Oriana, especially if he was indeed such a charcoal-hearted ****** as Miranda described... Because, he could just write both Miranda and Oriana off as his regular contributions to Cerberus, get whatever the reward the contributors receive, and then just clone another "daughter", engineering her to be more in line with his agenda.
[/quote]
Yes, that's indeed something that needs to be explained. We usually take his extreme possessiveness as the reason, which isn't altogether uncommon in controlling fathers. Still, it's not satisfying. It remains an open question.
[/quote]
That's what I thought too, at first. That it was some sort of a matter of pride, to show Miranda, that daddy's in charge and all. But then I though that there's maybe more to it, like he could have had some emotional affection towards Oriana, something that Miranda didn't let on to Shepard, or even to herself. Didn't Nikket hinted on that possibility?



[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]And Zaeed ain't 40.[/quote]
I knew you'd bring that up eventually Very likely he isn't, indeed. But that doesn't mean the Bioware site is incorrect in every other character's age.
[/quote]
Ah, yes, "age page", we have...

Why is Liara "around 100", when we know her age precisely? 106 in ME1 = 108 in ME2. Well, maybe 109, but that's it, while the "around 100" looks more like "80-120", so WTF?

Why is Grunt "22"? Ah, "human years"... Not good, 'cause in "human years" he is just about to hit puberty, which in "human years" happens at 12-14. The demographic Grunt's character was targetted at, so they just pulled this "22" figure out of their ass, to make the character look cool to the 12-14 year old boys. BTW, have you ever considered that Miranda was supposed to associate with a "hot cold math teacher" in those boys' inflamed minds...

[jtav]

I just realized that I'm the only group officer except for andy who regularly posts in this thread. How times change. And I feel like a very poor representative for the "old guard." I've even thought about leaving the group a couple of times since I've never actually posted there.

Just to keep this on topic: it's never said any canon material exactly where in Australia Miranda grew up, yes? I'm assuming she's actually Australian and that the accent isn't just an affectation or disguise.

Modifié par jtav, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:47 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I just realized that I'm the only group officer except for andy who regularly posts in this thread. How times change. And I feel like a very poor representative for the "old guard." I've even thought about leaving the group a couple of times since I've never actually posted there.

I won't leave the group, even though it's just for fan loyalty. I rarely look into the group discussions there, since the group interface is very limited compared to the forum, and usually, if I have anything to say about Miranda, it's better posted here.

Just to keep this on topic: it's never said any canon material exactly where in Australia Miranda grew up, yes? I'm assuming she's actually Australian and that the accent isn't just an affectation or disguise.

Could be, but I think Bioware is straightforward in this. You could interpret it any way you like for a fanfic, but I don't think it's intended to be a disguise. Actually, I'd like it if Bioware put something like that in, but so far Bioware has played everything painfully straight, not even acknowledging that, if common sense applies, "Lawson" can't be her real name.

@Zulu:
I can only say that to interpret "grow" as you do clashes with my understanding of the context. You know, we are talking about the equivalent of the krogan tank-bred. If she had meant "raise", she would have said it. Miranda wouldn't speak of her sister being grown like a plant, even though it might fit her father's attitude.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:02 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Zulu:
I can only say that to interpret "grow" as you do clashes with my understanding of the context. You know, we are talking about the equivalent of the krogan tank-bred. If she had meant "raise", she would have said it. Miranda wouldn't speak of her sister being grown like a plant, even though it might fit her father's attitude.

Why wouldn't she, if she wanted to emphasize how bad the daddy's attitude had been?

The idea of "growing them full-size" like in Judge Dredd and 6th Day is scientifically ridiculous. I can eat it when the krogans are in question, who don't have much brains to start with... But Miranda's father? No. He aimed for the best result and had all the time in the world. It had to be 9 months in a test tube / incubator, then all the infancy as prescribed in the "Happy Family" manual. Only without a mother and with a lot of strings attached, which was what Miranda saw the need to "rescue" Oriana from. And I don't believe you can get so emotionally attached to a tank-grown baby even if it's your "genetic twin", and throw your whole life away... Unless you get to know this baby as a person and see her as your own mirror image and so on.

All right, I'm going to check the "go talk to Oriana" option, and shut up, if it makes clear Oriana hasn't known of Miranda's existence. Probably going to shut up either way.

[t3HPrO]

@Ieldra2

I never said or thought Miri was 16 when she ran. I said 17, and I said Miri was 16 when Oriana was born. Lawson could very well be her real name, and it's actually plausible because:



1.)There are probably MILLIONS of Lawsons on earth, and probably an equal number on the colonies. It's like finding a needle in a haystack that's soaked in mud.

2.)Even if Miranda's father knew she was with Cerberus, he wouldn't touch her due to fear of retaliation from TIM. So why bother with the red tape of a name change when it doesn't really matter at all?



I always though Miri was Brit, seeing that she didn't have any troubles pronouncing the 'r' sound in her accent like typical Aussies do.

[t3HPrO]

@Zulu_DFA

It's completely plausible Miranda was with Cerberus for 20 years. After all, her self-denial is pretty damn good, and TIM is a master at convincing people and soothing and chasing away their doubts and disagreements.

[t3HPrO]

Whoa. Is it just me, or did this forum just go dead?

[Arijharn]

t3HPrO wrote...

@Ieldra2
I never said or thought Miri was 16 when she ran. I said 17, and I said Miri was 16 when Oriana was born. Lawson could very well be her real name, and it's actually plausible because:

1.)There are probably MILLIONS of Lawsons on earth, and probably an equal number on the colonies. It's like finding a needle in a haystack that's soaked in mud.
2.)Even if Miranda's father knew she was with Cerberus, he wouldn't touch her due to fear of retaliation from TIM. So why bother with the red tape of a name change when it doesn't really matter at all?

I always though Miri was Brit, seeing that she didn't have any troubles pronouncing the 'r' sound in her accent like typical Aussies do.

I'm not sure what your experience with 'typical Aussie accents' are then, because if it's just hollywood etc then obviously you would know that those are exaggerated etc. For example; I have no problem pronouncing 'r,' but I suppose you'll just have to take my word for it.

As to your thing about Lawson actually being her real surname while I'm inclined to believe that you have a point could you not see that not changing the surname for those reasons could be a tad bit... simplistic? Changing her surname adds a level of complexity to her actions and past events making it correspondingly more difficult for her father to track her and more to the point; track her sister.

It seems to me that Mr. X is far more interested in the fate of Oriana than he is of Miranda in any case.

[Zulu_DFA]

t3HPrO wrote...

Whoa. Is it just me, or did this forum just go dead?

I've been thinking of shutting up, but here you go.

I've checked the "Talk to sis" option



And it doesn't look to me like Oriana's never seen Miranda before. Just been a very long time since they parted.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:53 .

[enayasoul]

I am actually quite fond of the Australian accents... Claudia Black who does the voice of Morrigan is also Australian. It's just something about it, I like. Or that many games I've played had that similar accents *shrug* Although, Kate Beckinsale voice is also nice but she's English(British).

But back to Miranda... she must have seen a lot of projects come and go in Cerberus. It didn't hit me til now... wow. That's a long time. I wonder if she had to work her way up to be Tim right hand "woman"

Oh and I don't think Tim would make Miranda sleep with Shepard... her conversations never seemed to be that way.

What I did find weird was when I did the collector base and ****ed Tim for risking their lives.. and then talking to Miranda about Cerberus would be happy to have him join them seemed like Miranda was trying to maybe convince him to join them or that they were not all that bad. Like smooth things over. *shrug*

But I do love the renegade options for the kiss. My favorite. I always laugh... "Got you, Miranda" he he he

Modifié par enayasoul, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:33 .

[t3HPrO]

@Arijharn

Exactly. So why bother changing names when her father doesn't even bother anymore. Oriana, however, would definitely have a different name, seeing that Miri's father is still hunting her. I live in Singapore, where there are lots of Aussie expats, and most have problems with the r sound. I dunno if it's just one region or something.

[Arijharn]

Because he could guestimate that tracking down Miranda would make it easier to track down her sister. For example, say she's escaping a planet, if she'd use her real name wouldn't it be easier to track down Miranda's movements and to plot a course from there? If a Lawson purchased a flight from Earth to Illium (for a simplistic example) then Mr. X could use all sorts of methods to chart her actions. Did Lawson arrive with a child, Did Lawson make any 'unscheduled' stops etc. Did Lawson purchase additional tickets to other locations? Did she use registered transport, did she try to smuggle herself and the child onboard a vessel? The fact of the matter is, an approx. 16year old travelling with a baby is going to be highly visible as it is because it's not as if you can hide a baby in your suitcase. By changing her name (possibly also her physical appearance) then it make it easier for her and make it harder for those in her fathers pocket to track her movements.



Take Samara tracking down Morinth for example; she probably only had success because Morinth was using her last alias (or because Samara could give a damn good physical appearance to match against).

[t3HPrO]

Arijharn wrote...

Because he could guestimate that tracking down Miranda would make it easier to track down her sister. For example, say she's escaping a planet, if she'd use her real name wouldn't it be easier to track down Miranda's movements and to plot a course from there? If a Lawson purchased a flight from Earth to Illium (for a simplistic example) then Mr. X could use all sorts of methods to chart her actions. Did Lawson arrive with a child, Did Lawson make any 'unscheduled' stops etc. Did Lawson purchase additional tickets to other locations? Did she use registered transport, did she try to smuggle herself and the child onboard a vessel? The fact of the matter is, an approx. 16year old travelling with a baby is going to be highly visible as it is because it's not as if you can hide a baby in your suitcase. By changing her name (possibly also her physical appearance) then it make it easier for her and make it harder for those in her fathers pocket to track her movements.

Miranda would've used an alias(or a few) while on the run. However, when she joined up with Cerberus, she would've most likely switched back to using her original name. Also, I think I won't venture out of the Mirimancer camp anymore. There are just too many goddamn trolls-******-haters everywhere, and they make me sick. How someone can have so much hate is a mystery.

[Zulu_DFA]

She could have just taken Oriana like to a zoo, but instead gone to the Cerberus man in town (her father's contact), and persuaded him to make a call. And that's it.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 octobre 2010 - 03:32 .

[snfonseka]

Too much text...

[GodWood]

t3HPrO wrote...

I always though Miri was Brit, seeing that she didn't have any troubles pronouncing the 'r' sound in her accent like typical Aussies do.

Have difficulty pronoucing the 'r' sound?

Can you give an example?

[Axestone]

Question: Is there a fan community of Miranda Lawson in other social networks in addition to BSN? I mean Steam Community, XBox Live, Games for Windows Live and other?...
The more people it is well, right?

Modifié par Axestone, 14 octobre 2010 - 07:16 .