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[Jebel Krong]

I disagree: overlord was a pointless failure and would never have worked anyway - given what legion says about geth communications it would be like connecting an abacus to big blue...

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

I disagree: overlord was a pointless failure and would never have worked anyway - given what legion says about geth communications it would be like connecting an abacus to big blue...

Yes....if David weren't an autist, and anyway, you only know that after you meet Legion. Which is exactly the point. Perhaps I should've spoken of "before/after you speak with Legion about this" instead of his loyalty mission - would you agree with me then?

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

I don't think cardboard villains are necessarily a bad thing though. Good writing moves you and stirs emotion. Sometimes it feels good just to have a villain you can hate. The Reapers are cardboard villains but they're poorly written cardboard villains because they fail to make me feel much of anything. Howe is a cardboard villain but he's a well written cardboard villain because I hated him so much that by the time I got to his Denerim estate, I reloaded twice just so I could get the satisfaction of gutting him again (and again).

Point taken. Although I never felt the same rage against Rendon Howe like you did.

Bioware writing out Miranda's father eliminates the mental gymnastics but risks creating a character either so flat as to be laughable, or so complex that he overshadows Miranda and TIM. I would prefer that Bioware just stay away from Miranda's background as much as possible and let it remain in our imaginations to shape and mould as we see fit.

Therein lies the danger of one-dimensional and ME team's proven track record with flat cardboard villians unlike the DA team. When that happens, then all I've said in my post would come into play. I'm also thinking it's likely we won't see anymore explorations of Miranda's father as Ieldra has pointed out. But I wouldn't rule out it being delved into in franchise opportunities like comics, and novels post-ME3.

[jtav]

I think Miranda would shut Overlord down. Archer isn't going to reform, no matter what he says. Because of what David has endured, it's going to be very difficult to get something useful from him for a very long time. She would have exploited him, but done it much more gently. But now? He's a wreck, and Archer can't be trusted. I'm biased here. I've spent most of my life around special needs kids, and heard some horror stories. Miranda not getting David out of there would make me not want her in ME3 and edit my saves to accomplish that.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
I don't think cardboard villains are necessarily a bad thing though. Good writing moves you and stirs emotion. Sometimes it feels good just to have a villain you can hate. The Reapers are cardboard villains but they're poorly written cardboard villains because they fail to make me feel much of anything. Howe is a cardboard villain but he's a well written cardboard villain because I hated him so much that by the time I got to his Denerim estate, I reloaded twice just so I could get the satisfaction of gutting him again (and again).

I don't agree with you. The Reapers are not cardboard villains, except for the poorly chosen imagery they've been made to evoke. They are interesting *exactly because* your response to them plays out outside of the usual sympathy/hate scale. That you must defeat them is an existential necessity, yet one you don't feel with any immediacy. That's not the writer's fault, it's a matter of scale - the Reapers' agenda lies outside of the scope human emotion was made to deal with. Again, exactly that makes them interesting. Harbinger was a poor attempt to overcome that distance. It didn't work because you can't make something like the Reapers personal. They shouldn't do that, shouldn't try to reduce the Reapers to something you can hate. That would only cheapen the concept.

[AntenDS]

I find it strange Miranda wear lace underwear under her Cerberus suit. Not that it is impractical but that she is wearing sexy underwear in the first place. Is she always ready to seduce a contact or does it make her feel womanly in her line of tough work.

Modifié par AntenDS, 15 octobre 2010 - 10:26 .

[Snowship]

maybe she chose to put it on knowing she'd tell Shep to meet her at engineering that evening

[AntenDS]

That is very likely.  I wonder if she knows Tali likes Shep and told her to meet him there on purpose.

Modifié par AntenDS, 15 octobre 2010 - 10:37 .

[enayasoul]

I just couldn't let the experiment with David in Overload to continue. I found it to be rather emotional ending. My maleshep was really pissed that someone would go this far and being his own brother!

Modifié par enayasoul, 15 octobre 2010 - 10:50 .

[enayasoul]

AntenDS wrote...

That is very likely.  I wonder if she knows Tali likes Shep and told her to meet him there on purpose.

Probably does... gossip travels fast on the ship.  I am surprised Miri didn't say anything about my male shep screwing Jack... my male shep was waiting for her(miri) to pick a quiet time.  

Tali certainly knew my male shep was courting Miranda and wouldn't go any farther til I dumped one of them.   Miri seemed pretty hurt when I dumped her. (a different play through to see the Tali romance)

I wonder if Miranda would be jealous of Liara and Shepards relationship if I was courting Miranda...  Only reason I think this is because I personally brought Miranda along with Liara.  And Liara and Shep seemed like they were having a blast together, joking and what not.  Even though they were close friends. I think in the back of his mind he wanted Liara...but chose Ash.

I think Miranda might but not express it to him... or she might if they ever had a fight about him spending all his time with Liara later... or it could give Miranda a good example of what a close and healthy friendship can be like?   And that is what Miranda didn't have except Niket.

Just a thought

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

I disagree: overlord was a pointless failure and would never have worked anyway - given what legion says about geth communications it would be like connecting an abacus to big blue...

Yes....if David weren't an autist, and anyway, you only know that after you meet Legion. Which is exactly the point. Perhaps I should've spoken of "before/after you speak with Legion about this" instead of his loyalty mission - would you agree with me then?

Autism wouldn't make any difference. I just don't think Miranda would see any worth in it, even ignoring the impossibility and illogicality of the entire premise.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't agree with you. The Reapers are not cardboard villains, except for the poorly chosen imagery they've been made to evoke. They are interesting *exactly because* your response to them plays out outside of the usual sympathy/hate scale. That you must defeat them is an existential necessity, yet one you don't feel with any immediacy. That's not the writer's fault, it's a matter of scale - the Reapers' agenda lies outside of the scope human emotion was made to deal with. Again, exactly that makes them interesting. Harbinger was a poor attempt to overcome that distance. It didn't work because you can't make something like the Reapers personal. They shouldn't do that, shouldn't try to reduce the Reapers to something you can hate. That would only cheapen the concept.

The concept of the Reapers isn't terrible but I felt the execution left a lot to desire. A big part of it is nobody else other than Shepard and Cerberus seem to care about the Reapers and even Shepard finds the time to run around the galaxy doing sidejobs while he's supposedly on missions to stop them. ME does a poor job of communicating the gravitas of the threat and as the player, if nobody in the game cares about the Reapers, why should I?

I agree that the Reapers shouldn't be a typical enemy that a player or reader can fully comprehend or sympathize with, but they should still evoke some sort of emotional response. IMO, the Reapers should have made me feel the same kind of dread as the Old Ones evoke in the Cthulu mythos. All the horror of the Reapers was expressed to me by someone telling me about them - I never experienced it for myself. The whole idea of indoctrination had so much potential in this regard. If ME1 & 2 had included really spooky scenes with the right atmosphere and had shown Shepard forced to fight for his sanity against the whispers of a Reaper in his mind, I would have liked the Reapers a lot more as a villain. It's really too bad because ME2 had some levels where this could have worked, like the derelict Reaper and the Collector ship.

[Nightwriter]

The Reapers are less than compelling enemies.

Oddly? I was replaying ME1, and they sounded GREAT during the buildup, when they were still a mystery. The idea of a race of creatures which waits silently for each great civilization to reach its apex, then gobble it up and let it all happen again, is incredibly interesting to me. I love patterns like that. Especially ones that stretch back for millenia.

The execution is disappointing. Essentially I want to feel like I'm talking to a billion-year-old consciousness, and I don't.

[Giggles_Manically]

Nightwriter wrote...

The Reapers are less than compelling enemies.

Oddly? I was replaying ME1, and they sounded GREAT during the buildup, when they were still a mystery. The idea of a race of creatures which waits silently for each great civilization to reach its apex, then gobble it up and let it all happen again, is incredibly interesting to me. I love patterns like that. Especially ones that stretch back for millenia.

The execution is disappointing. Essentially I want to feel like I'm talking to a billion-year-old consciousness, and I don't.

Harbinger ruined the Reapers for me.
Honestly he sounded like a Generic villan to me.

What would have been scary is he did posses a minion than it became a brutal boss fight. 
Really he isint very hard to kill beyond any other collector so FAIL.

[Sledgehammer44mm]

AntenDS wrote...

That is very likely.  I wonder if she knows Tali likes Shep and told her to meet him there on purpose.

That's pretty funny:D

[Ieldra]

That's not funny, that's insulting. It's also not at all original, people have been saying that about the engine room scene since ME2 came out. I don't want to rehash that stuff yet again so I'll point you to the Miranda Lawson FAQ (scroll down to "Common misperceptions and criticisms").

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 octobre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Sledgehammer44mm]

What's wrong with it? I like to think Miranda wanted to make the rest jealous so what? Am I not allowed to feel that way?



Don't get bent out of shape.

Perhaps I haven't been on these boards in forever and perhaps I wasn't here when people been talking about that since day one.

I can't follow everything said.

[Mox Ruuga]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's not funny, that's insulting. It's also not at all original, people have been saying that about the engine room scene since ME2 came out. I don't want to rehash that stuff yet again so I'll point you to the Miranda Lawson FAQ (scroll down to "Common misperceptions and criticisms").

I'm sure it's the best "reason" Talimancers can come up with.

Everything in ME2 is about the eager chickenleg virgin, after all.

Not a fan of the Engine Room sex scene myself tho... I just rationalize that it was the only place without surveillance devices... OTOH, does this mean TIM will be looking at footage of Shepard and Liara "reminscing"... you know, for the good of the humanity and all.

[tommyt_1994]

Quick question Miri fans, do we know if Oriana was already alive when Miranda decided to flee? If so, that's when she "kidnapped" Oriana right?

[Sledgehammer44mm]

To be honest this was the first time today I came across this forum.
I'm not use to it being in a different thread then the old posts.

Also I am not a Tali fan fyi!

Miranda, Ashley, Kelly, Samara & Liara are my favorite.

Modifié par Sledgehammer44mm, 16 octobre 2010 - 06:10 .

[tommyt_1994]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I'm sure it's the best "reason" Talimancers can come up with.

Everything in ME2 is about the eager chickenleg virgin, after all.

This is just adding fuel to the fire. If you don't like Tali, that's perfectly fine dude but please try not to berate the fans of that character because it's a huge generalization. There are a great deal of Tali fans who feel that way, I've read it plenty of times, but they don't throw their opinions in your face from what I've seen and thye don't all feel that way. I know Tali fans used to often baxh Miranda (though not all of them did so) but they had also been trolled but several Miranda fans before. But that certainly doesn't make it justified. I'm a Tali fan, but I'm a Miranda fan as well, let's not fanbase bash please it hurts this thread. And comments like those just make Tali fans who either post or lurk here feel even more negatively towards Miranda's character and nothing is accomplished.

Back on topic: In regards to the engine room scene, I think the romance scene occurs there simply because the Devs liked the idea. I rationalize it like Mox does with the lack of surveillance bugs in the engine room. Miranda most likely knows about all the bugs in Shep's/her quarters and wanted some privacy.

[Ieldra]

Sledgehammer44mm wrote...
What's wrong with it? I like to think Miranda wanted to make the rest jealous so what? Am I not allowed to feel that way?

If it's just your interpretation, you're welcome. The point is too many people have used that interpretation to demean Miranda, which is why we're a bit sensitive about it.

But I still think it's not funny. I find "rub it in my rival's faces" a particularly vile character trait, which I don't like to be associated with Miranda. YMMV, of course.

Edit:
Please note that attacks against other characters' fanbases can get this thread shut down, while attacks on the characters themselves, as I understand, are more or less OK. I must say I find the expression "eager chickenleg virgin" hilarious. BTW, I like Tali a lot, just not her romance. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 octobre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Hm, perhaps I should have used a term like "Miranda detractors" instead, since yes, it's not merely the fans of a single character who attack her thus.

[Arijharn]

I actually like the engine room scene because:

a) It's unconventional

It speaks to me that she's unashamed about what she wants (aka Shephard)

c) There are elements of alpha woman, but I find that trait attractive (especially tied to point

d) There's a degree of wantonness about the whole scene.



Maybe Shephard should draw some flak for him not so much seducing Miranda (which would also be good... but I would personally find the idea of them seducing one another in the situation they found themselves to be actually rather distasteful "OMG OUR CREW HAS BEEN CAPTURED, WE BETTER MARK THE OCCASION BY GETTING SOME SCENTED CANDLES, DIMMED LIGHTS AND STARTING IN THE SHOWER")

[Ieldra]

I also like the engine room scene, and for much the same reasons as you, Arijharn. What I don't like is the interpretation that she chose the location because she wanted to be seen, make Tali jealous etc. etc..