15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Elyvern]

hooahguy wrote...

But, as others said, theres no gradual shift, it kinda goes from "well, Cerberus is ok" to "dont let them get the base and oh, btw I quit." Its all kinda sudden.

Very much so. And the only way it would be credible is for the individual player to make a bunch of internal rationalisations. We shouldn't have to.

[Aedan1992]

hooahguy wrote...

But, as others said, theres no gradual shift, it kinda goes from "well, Cerberus is ok" to "dont let them get the base and oh, btw I quit." Its all kinda sudden.

Thats called emotions. How would you react if you had seen a human liqufied before your own eyes and then find out that they have done it with hundreds of thousends? And she probably doesn't trust TIM using it right.

[fongiel24]

Aedan1992 wrote...

She was probably horrefied what she had seen at the base. And it is not OOC when she says it is a betrayal because oriana wanted to work in a colony and if she would have been abducted by the collecters and liquefied miri would never have used base no matter what. Do not let yourself get fooled that it is OOC. The people who say that mostly keep the base so there probably just pissed that miranda doesn't resign if you keep it. 

I'm not pissed that Miranda doesn't resign from Cerberus in the Renegade ending. Why would she in this scene if Shepard and TIM are still on the same page? I just find it OOC because Miranda is usually a rational pragmatist and she seems to be reacting emotionally here. Liquified humans, although horrific, doesn't even seem that much more extreme than some of Cerberus' experiments.

However, I do think Miranda is probably less ruthless than some of Cerberus' other project directors. TIM is probably aware of this and thus keeps her away from the particularly nasty projects. I think Miranda does begin to question TIM and Cerberus' methods a bit over the course of ME2 so it's possible her objection to keeping the base and quitting Cerberus doesn't come completely out of the blue. What's unfortunate though, is that we're never shown Miranda expressing these growing doubts about Cerberus so we're forced to draw them in with our own imaginations, like Elyvern says.

Modifié par fongiel24, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:13 .

[Aedan1992]

She is still human like everyone else. What the hell is wrong with showing some emotions. She is not a hearthless b*tch. In real life it is not really that strange to switch from one side to the other. Do you know how easy people can be bribed to an other side. She is just acted on instinct and there absoluty nothing wrong with that. 

I don't understand why where having this discussion again because you will always say that it is OOC and i will always say that it is not. And no matter how many times where going to repeat this it will not change the game.

Modifié par Aedan1992, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Caihn]

hooahguy wrote...

A recent post in the forums made me think: is there any actual, hard, evidence that Miri begins to sway when it comes to Cerberus before the decision is made whether or not to destroy the collector base? Now that I think about it, her change in heart seems a bit sudden. I do remember that she does cast some doubt after the collector ship set-up, but anything else?

The change is not so sudden. Miranda is very professional, and she doesn't show her doubts about Cerberus. Project Overlord, Pragia or the Collector Ship mission had a significant impact on her mind, but she's still a Cerberus Officier and she has to stay loyal. Her discussion with Shepard about Cerberus actions, seems to be more a propaganda speech than her real opinion. TIM is a very good manipulator but Miranda is very intelligent and she is more and more aware of who TIM really is.
The collector base is the straw that broke the camel's back. Miranda knows what TIM is capable to do with the base, and she can not follow him anymore.

Modifié par Yannkee, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:25 .

[hooahguy]

Aedan: I am on the side that says its not so OOC, dont get mad. =)

Yannkee: I guess that makes sense, her being professional and all, but I would have liked even a little bit of an indication before that shows that she is on the fence. Like maybe her muttering a curse at TIM after the collector ship ambush or something.

[Elyvern]

Aedan1992 wrote...

hooahguy wrote...

A recent post in the forums made me think: is there any actual, hard, evidence that Miri begins to sway when it comes to Cerberus before the decision is made whether or not to destroy the collector base? Now that I think about it, her change in heart seems a bit sudden. I do remember that she does cast some doubt after the collector ship set-up, but anything else?

She was probably horrefied what she had seen at the base. And it is not OOC when she says it is a betrayal because oriana wanted to work in a colony and if she would have been abducted by the collecters and liquefied miri would never have used base no matter what. Do not let yourself get fooled that it is OOC. The people who say that mostly keep the base so there probably just pissed that miranda doesn't resign if you keep it. 

On the contrary, I have 3 playthroughs where I destroy the base and 1 where I keep it, and I still think she is OOC. I have two big gripes about what she says at the end:

1. Really flimsy lead-up to her decision to resign Cerberus unless the player construct scenarios in their heads about her gradual shift in allegiance when your Shepard wasn't looking. Especially when Cerberus still knows there whereabouts of her sister.

2. Again, no lead up to her sudden emotionally-charged reasoning that using anything from the base is a betrayal. First, she was written to be a pragmatist. Second, no other decision in the entire game can rival the stakes involved in this decision. Someone who chooses to destroy the base on emotional grounds is as far away from a pragmatist as possible. Okay, I'll bite and argue that like her decision to resign, maybe she was gradually softening up to become more emotional. But we'll have to construct equally elaborate scenarios in our heads for that to be credible--same deal as point 1. 

@Fongiel - I think it was in Revelations that it was hinted TIM compartmentalises which projects he lets his best and most intelligent operatives see and learn about, so that they don't develop moral reservations about the true nature of Cerberus.

[fongiel24]

Yannkee wrote...

The change is not so sudden. Miranda is very professional, and she doesn't show her doubts about Cerberus. Project Overlord, Pragia or the Collector Ship mission had a significant impact on her mind, but she's still a Cerberus Officier and she has to stay loyal. Her discussion with Shepard about Cerberus actions, seems to be more a propaganda speech than her real opinion. TIM is a very good manipulator but Miranda is very intelligent and she is more and more aware of who TIM really is.
The collector base is the straw that broke the camel's back. Miranda knows what TIM is capable to do with the base, and she can not follow him anymore.

I can follow this reasoning, but I wish we had seen Miranda's suspicions about Cerberus. Miranda could have offered the propaganda before her LM, and admitted her growing doubts to Shepard after. As the dialogue progression is written though, I think Miranda's conversation to Shepard where she defends the use of husks, creepers, and rachni is something she honestly believes, or at least something wants to believe.

In the Collector base decision, I think it wouldn't have been as jarring if Miranda hadn't voiced her objections in such emotional terms. Instead of "Keeping the base just seems like a betrayal", she could have said something like "This base is dangerous and we don't know what the consequences could be if we keep it. Safer just to destroy it.". I could have bought this because at least it would sound like Miranda had thought it through before just blurting out her initial emotional response.

[jtav]

I think her resignation was poorly set up. When last we spoke about Cerberus, she spouted the party line with real conviction, and that was after she saw Teltin (which does seem to have actually went rogue). There really needed to be a mandatory sequence to set u[ her doubts. It would have been better if she had a different LM, one that caused her to doubt Cerberus.

[Caihn]

hooahguy wrote...
Yannkee: I guess that makes sense, her being professional and all, but I would have liked even a little bit of an indication before that shows that she is on the fence. Like maybe her muttering a curse at TIM after the collector ship ambush or something.

Her attitude doesn't suprise me. She has worked for Cerberus for years, it must be difficult for her to show her doubts imediatly after these kind of revelations.

[Aedan1992]

Why can't people just accept the things for what they are.

[Elyvern]

Aedan1992 wrote...

Why can't people just accept the things for what they are.

I honestly went W. T. F. when Miranda said what she said in my first playthrough and I sat stunned, wondering if she was abducted and replaced by another person. For something I feel so viscerally, no, I cannot accept it for what it is.

Modifié par Elyvern, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:04 .

[jtav]

I destroy the base most of the time, and I found it jarring. The very last time you can discuss Cerberus, she defends them. There's never any follow up to her lines on the Collector ship. Everything else until that point shows her to be a true believer. You have to explain changes like that, not depend on your audience to write mental fanfic.

[hooahguy]

Im getting a new rationalization for why she quit:

So Shep earned her loyalty, right?

So this means that she trusts his decisions, whatever they may be. Even more so if Shep and Miri love each other, that bond of trust is even greater.

If Shep says one thing that TIM disagrees with, Id put money on the fact that Miri would put her trust behind her lover, not some shadow that tends to do stupid things *cough* collector ship ambush.*cough*

[Caihn]

I understand why Aedan is upset. Reading regular complaints about Miranda not being herself when she resigns is very annoying for people who consider her reaction totally IC.

[jtav]

One problem with that. She resigns regardless of loyalty (and dies). She should have turned on you if she wasn't loyal. She's dead anyway. Might as well get some drama out of the situation.

[Caihn]

Shepard has nothing to do with this. It's her opinion. I would be disapointed if she decided to resign only because of her loyalty.
She's an intelligent woman, she doesn't need Shepard to make her own opinion about this.

Modifié par Yannkee, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:16 .

[Aedan1992]

Elyvern wrote...

Aedan1992 wrote...

Why can't people just accept the things for what they are.

I honestly went W. T. F. when Miranda said what she said in my first playthrough and I sat stunned, wondering if she was abducted and replaced by another person. For something I feel so viscerally, no, I cannot accept it for what it is.

But it doenst change not matter what people wish or think. I liked it when she said it. Thats it. I'm sure BW has their reasons why the did it. Maybe they will explain it in ME 3. 

[fongiel24]

hooahguy wrote...

Im getting a new rationalization for why she quit:
So Shep earned her loyalty, right?
So this means that she trusts his decisions, whatever they may be. Even more so if Shep and Miri love each other, that bond of trust is even greater.
If Shep says one thing that TIM disagrees with, Id put money on the fact that Miri would put her trust behind her lover, not some shadow that tends to do stupid things *cough* collector ship ambush.*cough*

I'm not too sure about this. Even if they really do love each other that much (I'm suspicious of this because their relationship is only a few months old at most by the end of ME2), that doesn't mean Miranda will blindly support any decision Shepard makes. If Shepard makes a hasty or reckless decision, I'm sure Miranda would at least voice her objection to it. She not's a lovestruck teenager, allowing her boyfriend to lead her everywhere and tell her what to think.

[Elyvern]

Yannkee wrote...

I understand why Aedan is upset. Reading regular complaints about Miranda not being herself when she resigns is very annoying for people who consider her reaction totally IC.

The annoyance runs both ways, trust me. So we'll as usual, agree to respectfully disagree.

@hooahguy - Miranda says the same thing if you choose to destroy the base even if she is not loyal, let alone in a relationship with you.

[hooahguy]

Or it could just be because though she works for a morally ambiguous faction, she still has morals and she finds keeping the base morally wrong.

[Aedan1992]

Yannkee wrote...

Shepard has nothing to do with this. It's her opinion. I would be disapointed if she decided to resign only because of her loyalty.
She's an intelligent woman, she doesn't need Shepard to make her own opinion about this.

It would be OOC if she needed shepard to make her decisions.

[Caihn]

Aedan1992 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Aedan1992 wrote...

Why can't people just accept the things for what they are.

I honestly went W. T. F. when Miranda said what she said in my first playthrough and I sat stunned, wondering if she was abducted and replaced by another person. For something I feel so viscerally, no, I cannot accept it for what it is.

But it doenst change not matter what people wish or think. I liked it when she said it. Thats it. I'm sure BW has their reasons why the did it. Maybe they will explain it in ME 3. 

To me there is nothing to explain. Her decision doesn't need justifications.

Modifié par Yannkee, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:20 .

[Caihn]

Aedan1992 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Shepard has nothing to do with this. It's her opinion. I would be disapointed if she decided to resign only because of her loyalty.
She's an intelligent woman, she doesn't need Shepard to make her own opinion about this.

It would be OOC if she needed shepard to make her decisions.

I agree.

[Aedan1992]

Yannkee wrote...

Aedan1992 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Aedan1992 wrote...

Why can't people just accept the things for what they are.

I honestly went W. T. F. when Miranda said what she said in my first playthrough and I sat stunned, wondering if she was abducted and replaced by another person. For something I feel so viscerally, no, I cannot accept it for what it is.

But it doenst change not matter what people wish or think. I liked it when she said it. Thats it. I'm sure BW has their reasons why the did it. Maybe they will explain it in ME 3. 

To me there is nothing to explain. Her decision doesn't need justifications.

Same here.