15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

@hooahguy, Aedan1992:

The response "it's a game. It doesn't matter" is, most often, the last refuge of those who have no more arguments. Where it's not, it's simply wrong: we care about the internal consistency and believability of our fictional universes, and we debate about what we care about. That's all the point such a debate needs.



It you don't want to take part in a debate, stay silent. Unless a debate has gone seriously off the rails in content or manner, there's no point in berating others for having a discussion.



As for the matter in question, I also tend to take Miranda everywhere, but I still find her outfit jarring, the white one more so than the black one. I don't appreciate *her* any less for it, but I do appreciate Bioware less for making her outfits what they are: unconvincing and immersion-breaking fanservice.

[Arijharn]

There's a slight problem here... I don't mind *a bit* of fan service. Yep, I'm completely honest enough to admit that.



Having said that, I did find it somewhat ridiculous watching her walk into a line of gunfire without shrugging while wearing a latex jumpsuit. It kinda makes Shephard seem so ridiculous for arming up so much and getting all this fantastic upgrades when your Cerberus minions just waltz on in wearing not much more than their underwear.

[Ieldra]

[quote]Arijharn wrote...
There's a slight problem here... I don't mind *a bit* of fan service. Yep, I'm completely honest enough to admit that.[/quote]
Of course not. Neither do I. That's why I underscored the adjectives in my last post....the problem is not that it's fanservice, but that it's fanservice so badly done it infringes on the believability of the universe.[/quote]

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2010 - 12:48 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Yeah, I would accept the fanservicey outfits if they wore real hardsuits to combat. Without heels. Without bare arms and chests in hostile environments. And with real helmets, not flimsy breathing masks.

What Liara (in LotSB) and Mordin wear is close enough to light combat armour of ME1, and distinctive as well. Just add helmets for them and it's all good. Something similar to what Liara wears should be both functional AND feminine enough to suit Miranda. Just see the recolours some people have done of that outfit, especially in black, for their FemSheps. It's actually pretty hot for armour...

Samara I'd like to see in heavier armour, since she's a Space Paladin after all... But that's off topic.

EDIT

And no, I'm not suggesting an exact copy of the Liara LotSB outfit for Miranda. But something that looks equally protective, and possibly as "feminine".

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 19 octobre 2010 - 12:50 .

[Caihn]

Personnaly I think the white outfit is ugly.

But I find the "fan service" argument ridiculous.
If Miranda's outfit is fan service, then 99% video games female character outfits are also fan service.
Her outfit is tight, yes, like most of the sexy female outfits, but she doesn't walk in underwear, miniskirts, bikini or garter belt. The only part of her body we can see is her neck and her face.

Ok it's not he best outfit for combat, but look at Jack and Samara : Miranda's outfit is not the worst.
I prefer a character with a "jumpsuit", than a half-naked character.

What I suggested for the next appearance pack is not so different than what she already wear :

Modifié par Yannkee, 19 octobre 2010 - 01:12 .

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...
But I find the "fan service" argument ridiculous.
If Miranda's outfit is fan service, then 99% video games female character outfits are also fan service.
Her outfit is tight, yes, like most of the sexy female outfits, but she doesn't walk in underwear, miniskirts, bikini or garter belt. The only part of her body we can see is her neck and her face.

Actually, I'm tempted to say that her outfit is close-fitting enough that she might as well wear nothing at all. There's sexy, and then there's Fetish Fuel. Miranda's is over-the-top, if admittedly not as bad as Samara's or Jack's. Also, I wouldn't complain nearly as much if characters had actual helmets..

What I suggested for the next appearance pack is not far from what she already wear :

I like the lower right one, but would *not* like to see Miranda in Liara's Redemption outfit. That's even worse than what we've got now.

[Jebel Krong]

all those alternatives are worse than what we've got. and Liara's outfit isn't right for Miranda, either. tbh the irony of the "breather" masks is that it was probably done so that it didn't detract from the conversations, whilst with shepard they went the total opposite direction with the special armours... i can certainly live with the former purely because seeing the faces is a lot better than talking to a bunch of helmets during important events.

[Axestone]

Yannkee

My Shepard never left the Normandy without Miranda.

I don't care about her outfit. I choose squadmates because I like them and because they are efficient in combat.

You know, sometimes it seems to me that you're not just a foreign fan, but a real internet-prophet. With your opinion it is necessary to be considered.

I generally like people who are so cold and succinctly express their thoughts.

I`m sorry, offtopic...

Modifié par Axestone, 19 octobre 2010 - 01:48 .

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
all those alternatives are worse than what we've got. and Liara's outfit isn't right for Miranda, either. tbh the irony of the "breather" masks is that it was probably done so that it didn't detract from the conversations, whilst with shepard they went the total opposite direction with the special armours... i can certainly live with the former purely because seeing the faces is a lot better than talking to a bunch of helmets during important events.

You know.....the helmet issue wouldn't be so annoying hadn't ME1 managed to give us the best of both worlds: with the "helmets off" setting all your characters had no helmets in conversations and on most missions, but they still put them on when appropriate, such as when exploring planets or during the "outdoor" parts of the final Citadel missions.

[jtav]

I'm trying a game where Miranda stays on the Normandy. On the one hand, I'm hearing new dialogue. On the other, I miss her. It's not very much fun without her. I'm still wavering on whether or not to kill her. This Shepard hates her.

[jtav]

*reads thread a bit more closely* "Be All Our Sins Remembered" is done. No more chapters. I'm working on something else now. Several somethings, actually.

[Ieldra]

We need Miranda pictures. Here's one of my Omega shots. Her face isn't quite right, but I like the mood.



@jtav:
Well....it's your own loss if you play without Miranda. I've done this tidbit-wise, one or two missions without her in any game. It's much less painful that way. As for the killing - no comment. Perhaps you'd rather not tell us if you do that. I wonder why you have this penchant for playing and writing about Shepards who hate her...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2010 - 05:02 .

[jtav]

Nice.



Ieldra, it's a bit of a self-imposed challenge. She hardly ever leaves my squad otherwise, and I'm trying to add variety to my play experience. I'm running a concurrent game where I'm very nice to her and take her everywhere. It's just the one Shepard who hates her. (I lost her when I made the switch to PC) Most of them disapprove of her, but they become friends eventually. As for writing, I've only done one Shepard who had any tension with her.

[hooahguy]

A poem I read today in my advanced english class, and I was reminded of Miri as soon as I read this:

First Love, by Stanley Kunitz

At his incipient sun
The ice of twenty winters broke,
Crackling, in her eyes.

Her mirroring, still mind,
That held the world (made double) calm,
Went fluid, and it ran.

There was a stir of music,
Mixed with flowers, in her blood;
A swift impulsive balm

From obscure roots;
Gold bees of clinging light
Swarmed in her brow.

Her throat is full of songs,
She hums, she is sensible of wings
Growing on her heart.

She is a tree in spring
Trembling with the hope of leaves,
Of which the leaves are tongues.

Modifié par hooahguy, 19 octobre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Ieldra]

So... I've finally run through LotSB with the last of my six Shepards, and also got the "The Hard Way" achievement on the way with my Engineer. The kind of interaction we see with Liara is the kind I want with Miranda in ME2 - mature, intelligent but not without emotion, and she has her own opinion in more than one way and doesn't hesitate to voice it. That's the kind of relationship development I'd put in my wishlist as number three, after "Miranda should stay independent and competent" and "Miranda should keep her moral ambiguity".

I'm thinking of replacing shinobi's wishlist in the OP with something that isn't restricted to the romance. Anything I should add or change, apart from those points above?

BTW, nice poem, hooahguy. I'm not sure it can be applied to Miranda so much - I don't get the implications of all the metaphors - but it is nice.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2010 - 06:53 .

[jtav]

Assuming she comes back, I'd love to see her have more interaction (positive and negative) with the rest of the squad. For instance, they set up the parallels with Grunt but never did anything with them. I'd like to see more antagonism with Jack. If the VS is recruitable, I want to see how she gets on with Kaidan.

[jtav]

There's a topic: how would she get along with the ME crew? Garrus seems to dislike her, and I have a feeling it's mutual. Tali despises Cerberus, but she seems mostly indifferent to Miranda. She canonically gets along well with Liara, and they could have been close friends if things had been different. I think she and Ash would rub each other the wrong way. They're both loyal to a fault, but they have opposing temperments. Miranda would think Ash is overly emotional and Ash would think Miranda's an ice queen.

I think Miranda and Kaidan would have some sexual tension. They're of similar temprements: introverted and deliberating and professional. But they're currently on opposite sides and have very different moral compasses. I could see the developing a knack for pushing each other's buttons without hurting each other. I think she'd take a certain pleasure in seeing him flustered. I might be a bit biased here.

No idea about Wrex.

Modifié par jtav, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:37 .

[enayasoul]

If Miranda had to pick one person to confide in on the Normandy who would be the obvious choice besides Shepard?

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...
If Miranda had to pick one person to confide in on the Normandy who would be the obvious choice besides Shepard?

Mordin.

[jtav]

Mordin, Samara, or Thane.

[Mox Ruuga]

Confide in, as in about Oriana or a similar issue?

Eh... Jacob maybe? Or perhaps Doctor Chakwas, depending on the issue.

If she needed help like in a case with Oriana, she would either talk to Jacob first, or go straight to TIM about it. I'm betting on the latter, since she doesn't seem to hold Jacob in the same esteem as Shepard, even tho she still has some fondness left for him.

Even tho I think she might get along with Mordin, she wouldn't most likely confide in him on mostly anything. Unless it was after her resignation, and her need was dire. And if that was the case, I think Jacob would still be her #1 choice.

[Elyvern]

Definitely Mordin for me. Excerpt time! (This takes place during the reaper war)

She sat down, and gazed at Mordin thoughtfully.

“How do you do it, Mordin? Stay calm in the face of such odds?”

“All ties accounted for. Lived a full life, have no regrets. More fortunate than some.” He looked at her. “Heard anything from Shepard?”

“He said he was going beyond the Perseus Veil to gather the geth forces in his last message.” Her brow furrowed in worry. “That was three weeks ago.”

Mordin reached out to tweak his cranial horn. “Confess, still find human courtship and mating behavior puzzling. Although may explain that tendency for two units to form a basic breeding pair has effect in creating diversity in human genome.”

Despite knowing the salarian for years, there were times when his mental leaps still took Miranda by surprise.

“Monogamy wasn’t always the norm.” She pointed out, toying with her datapad. “And I’m not sure it’s been around long enough to have that effect.”

“Just a theory. Together with human birth ratios seem to suggest biological imperative achieving equilibrium with mature, space-faring culture.”

It was a long time since Miranda had given it thought, but at his words, the memory of Noah’s ark from her childhood came to mind, the rare times when she forced reality to take a backseat in favour of an imaginary world. She’d long since lost that ability. Inevitably as it did now, the image conjured up a new dread.

“I hope we wouldn’t need to go on board the ark, two by two, this time.”

“Ah. Christian biblical reference. Hard to imagine, but are you a believer?”

“I was never one. But it made for a great story as a child.” Unable to dislodge her newfound dread, she said a little desperately. “I’ve been meaning to ask: I’ve read about salarian breeding contracts, but what actually happens?”

Mordin’s lips split widely. On a human, she would say it was a salacious smile. He lifted a finger. And then followed that with all six digits.

“One female. Many males.”

Miranda smiled despite her mood.

“That sounds strangely refreshing. How do your women stand being pawed over?”

“No physical contact involved. Fortunately or unfortunately. Egg-laying species. Unfertilised eggs hatch into males. Fertilised become females. Each male partner allowed to fertilise one egg.”

She nibbled on the end of a finger. “I see why you think our courtship behaviour baffling. No physical contact would be quite the letdown.”

“Hormones can be very inconvenient. You have my sympathy.”

“You’ll excuse me if I don’t respond to that.” She chuckled, even as Mordin’s lips twitched. “So what happens if a male tries to, ah, overstep his boundaries?”

“Communal affair. Female’s clan-mates stand guard against unsanctioned moves. Quite a good deterrant actually.”  

“Another of those big differences…” She shook her head. “Do you have children of your own?”

“Contract negotiation takes too long. STG work more important. More than one way to leave mark of existence in galaxy. Foresee children in the future yourself?”

Mordin must have sensed her sudden mood change, and asked carefully.

“Intruding? Apologies, didn’t mean offense.”

“No. It’s all right.” Miranda stared at the datapad in her hands before making her decision.

“It’s just awhile back, I found out I wouldn’t be able to conceive naturally. It’s not irreversible, I think. I didn’t have the time to learn more, what with Shepard getting captured and the rest of us on the run. Not that it matters now...” She said, gazing at the opposite wall of the room.

Mordin coughed politely. “Beg to differ. Salarians lack concept of sexual love, but universal for all species to have emotional investment in future. Survival mechanism.”

“I know. But that’s so academic. Knowing it doesn’t count somehow… ”

“Need to feel to understand? Not immune myself. Tendency for scientists to overlook: sometimes, most effective answers are emotional ones.”

She looked at him.

“You’re a wise man, Mordin.”

To her surprise, he looked away in embarrassment.

“Harboured fear once would spend twilight years on home-world as armchair philosopher. Traditional. Much better here instead. Humans have a saying: no rest for the wicked? Very apt personally.”

Miranda laughed. “That’s as good a reasoning as any.”

Modifié par Elyvern, 19 octobre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Mr Plow]

enayasoul wrote...

If Miranda had to pick one person to confide in on the Normandy who would be the obvious choice besides Shepard?

Jacob since they are still friends/colleagues


Maybe Samara given her Code means she may be more trustworthy than some others

[Mox Ruuga]

jtav wrote...

There's a topic: how would she get along with the ME crew?

- Tali I think will never even want to get any closer to her, and the feeling is mutual. Miranda I feel would value Tali's prodigal tech abilities, but wouldn't consider more than an "asset" to be expended on the suicide mission, or in Cerberus' other goals as the situation warrants.

- Miranda and Garrus might respect each others' skills, but they wouldn't trust each other. Add to that, I don't think Miranda would respect Garrus as a person, considering him too much of a loose cannon and an idealistic hot head. Going to Omega to take everyone on all at once? Rash, and Omega remains the cess pool it always was.

- Does she canonically get along with Liara? The comic was so bad I've forgotten much of it, but at least after LotSB I think they would recognize the Alpha Female in each other (a new thing for Liara!), and Miranda would have new respect for her abilities and her powerbase. Liara IIRC isn't as disgusted by the Cerberus connection as some of the others, either.

- Wrex might see something of Aleena in her, minus the "softness". Or even Shepard. She's resourceful, brilliant, and pragmatic, what's not for a Krogan to like? The Cerberus thing, sure, but Krogan themselves generally hold similar attitudes about other species and about gaining power (tho the methods obviously differ), so it would simply be someone else looking out for number 1, without the foolish idealism. Miranda I think would like Wrex too, tho she wouldn't trust him over much. More than Zaeed tho, especially after his little stunt in the refinery.

- Ashley and Miranda wouldn't get along, especially if the former knew of the latter's Cerberus ties. It might come into violence pretty quickly. As with Garrus, Miranda wouldn't appreciate her feisty idealism.

- Kaidan and Miranda probably wouldn't get along, if Miranda's Cerberus ties were out in the open. It seems to be as much of a red cloth for Kaidan as for Ash. Personalitywise tho, I agree, there's much potential chemistry there.

IMO she would really only "get along" with Wrex and Liara. And Kaidan, if he didn't know about her Cerberus ties.

[enayasoul]

jtav wrote...

Mordin, Samara, or Thane.

Not sure what Miranda thinks about Thane.

I have to agree on Mordin or Samara...   Mordin maybe for his scientific mind.   She seems to like him.  They seem to have similar backgrounds in genetics?

I am thinking Samara would be a interesting choice if she had to ask relationship advice?  Samara being over 1000 years old and had lovers and being a maiden.

How much relationship experience does Miranda actually have? I wonder. 

Guess that's why she bought the book? <_<

I have her in my fan fic as not so experienced but open to the idea because she wants him.  In her eyes, he's perfect and sometimes wishes he wasn't.   I have a feeling she doesn't like "feelings" to get in the way of work and how it might compromise the mission.  or future missions etc.  Basically how she is going to deal with it.

Modifié par enayasoul, 19 octobre 2010 - 09:41 .