15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Popping in for a sec. Honor Before Reason always was a favorite trope of mine. Then again, I always did enjoy playing paladins in D&D.

I'm coming from the opposite side - this is one of my most disliked tropes and I liked to make fun of paladins when playing D&D I've always been drawn to those stories where someone needed to do something horrific to secure a good outcome.

The game doesn't draw the line in the same place that I do, but I do lean towards the deontological in ethics, though motivein circumstances do matter. There are certain acts that are simply Not Done, regardless of what the consequences may be. I see no good reason not to keep the base for study if indoctrination can be avoided, but I cannot see my way to giving the base to Cerberus. Since my only choices are to hand it over or destroy it, then I choose to destroy it. I'm willing to risk the galaxy for that.

You're so certain that you're right that you're willing to risk the galaxy for it? I must admit that such a mindset is impossible for me to comprehend. I wonder if you would still think so if you really had to make such a decision. Probably there are certain things I couldn't do regardless of the circumstances either, but I would regard this inability as a flaw.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juin 2010 - 06:33 .

[Ieldra]

mass_zotz wrote...
I always might change my mind but at the moment to me, saving the base some how feels wrong. The main problem is that I don't know what TIM wants to use the base for exactly, so it makes hard to choose but his history kinda points to something that is not gonna go well.

Of course it won't go well if you give TIM the base. That's not the question. The question is: will it go worse if you destroy it? If what we're facing were anything less than an extinction event, I wouldn't have to think long of the decision - I'd destroy the base however much it pained me.

But we've been back and forth about this several times. I'll go back to my game - this Renegade Shepard is going to keep the base because she wants to secure human domination. Not my usual kind of Shepard....

[Caihn]

One thing certain, Overlord reinforced me in my decision of destroying the base.

[jtav]

Am I certain? I'd probably do whatever it took to save my life and the lives of my loved ones. I regard that as a serious moral failing on my part. There are some things that are intrinsically wrong regardless of circumstance, though circumstances can mitigate or remove culpability. My moral worldview is the major reason that I have such a complicated relationship with Miranda. It's largely diametrically opposed to hers. Whenever I need to decide what she would do, I just pick the opposite of what I would do.

[philiposophy]

This is my first post in this thread, so I'll try to make it a good one and say why Miranda is one of my favourite characters and most common LI.

I'll start with the shallow reasons. First, she's based on Yvonne Strahovski so she's among the most beautiful characters in the game. Second, she's the best squadmate in the series so far. Her powers let her handle any defences and her passive is very good. I don't think there are any missions where taking her along is inadvisable.

So, deeper reasons. She's independent and competent, which I like a lot, as it makes her a great foil for Shepard. I like her professionalism too. She takes romance rejections very well, I recall, and doesn't get angry with you and simply accepts it may be a good idea to focus on the mission instead. Her backstory and character have depth and intrigue.

So yeah, Miranda for ME3, please.

[Ieldra]

philiposophy wrote...
This is my first post in this thread, so I'll try to make it a good one and say why Miranda is one of my favourite characters and most common LI.

I'll start with the shallow reasons. First, she's based on Yvonne Strahovski so she's among the most beautiful characters in the game. Second, she's the best squadmate in the series so far. Her powers let her handle any defences and her passive is very good. I don't think there are any missions where taking her along is inadvisable.

So, deeper reasons. She's independent and competent, which I like a lot, as it makes her a great foil for Shepard. I like her professionalism too. She takes romance rejections very well, I recall, and doesn't get angry with you and simply accepts it may be a good idea to focus on the mission instead. Her backstory and character have depth and intrigue.

So yeah, Miranda for ME3, please.

Welcome, philiposophy. it's interesting to see yet another one who cites "she's independent and competent" as the first of the deeper reasons. There are various reasons to like her, but this is, as it seems, universal among those who like her in the first place. Have you looked into our original post? There's quite a lot of Miranda-related stuff collected there.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

I have no interest in Ms. Strahovski as a person or an actress. So I'm afraid fiction does trump reality this once for me.

That makes no sense.  She brings the fiction to life.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I'm coming from the opposite side - this is one of my most disliked tropes and I liked to make fun of paladins when playing D&D I've always been drawn to those stories where someone needed to do something horrific to secure a good outcome.

I don't know.  I guess I like a sense of honor creating an internal conflict in those scenarios.  If the just does horrible things and then justifies them that they are for the better good and no big deal well the horrible act is not very compelling.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You're so certain that you're right that you're willing to risk the galaxy for it? I must admit that such a mindset is impossible for me to comprehend. I wonder if you would still think so if you really had to make such a decision. Probably there are certain things I couldn't do regardless of the circumstances either, but I would regard this inability as a flaw.

From my perspective I think just the opposite.  It is you who are risking something obvious that has happened repeatedly by keeping it.

We will see who is right but I bet we both are since Shep will probably have a way to win either way.

[Valmy]

philiposophy wrote...

This is my first post in this thread, so I'll try to make it a good one and say why Miranda is one of my favourite characters and most common LI.

I'll start with the shallow reasons. First, she's based on Yvonne Strahovski so she's among the most beautiful characters in the game. Second, she's the best squadmate in the series so far. Her powers let her handle any defences and her passive is very good. I don't think there are any missions where taking her along is inadvisable.

So, deeper reasons. She's independent and competent, which I like a lot, as it makes her a great foil for Shepard. I like her professionalism too. She takes romance rejections very well, I recall, and doesn't get angry with you and simply accepts it may be a good idea to focus on the mission instead. Her backstory and character have depth and intrigue.

So yeah, Miranda for ME3, please.

Yeah one of the main reasons I grew to like the character is because once I saw her skills I took her along all the time.  She is also a brainiac science type and stays cool most of the time I like that.

[jtav]

Valmy wrote...

jtav wrote...

I have no interest in Ms. Strahovski as a person or an actress. So I'm afraid fiction does trump reality this once for me.

That makes no sense.  She brings the fiction to life.

Why not? I think she did a good job in ME, but I have no interest in any of her other projects or roles. That doesn't strike me as strange.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...
Why not? I think she did a good job in ME, but I have no interest in any of her other projects or roles. That doesn't strike me as strange.

I guess if I spent months talking about a character a certain actor had portrayed I probably wouldn't say I had no interest in that actor's acting and would avoid seeing her in other roles, I would consider that pretty strange.  Contradictory even.

You may not have enough interest to see something just because she is in it but no interest seems a bit strong.

Modifié par Valmy, 17 juin 2010 - 07:40 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Am I certain? I'd probably do whatever it took to save my life and the lives of my loved ones. I regard that as a serious moral failing on my part. There are some things that are intrinsically wrong regardless of circumstance, though circumstances can mitigate or remove culpability. My moral worldview is the major reason that I have such a complicated relationship with Miranda. It's largely diametrically opposed to hers. Whenever I need to decide what she would do, I just pick the opposite of what I would do.

It's interesting that you're drawn to a character so different from yourself. Maybe that's one of the reasons you make it so hard for Miranda in your stories, and why you find it hard to roleplay a Shepard who would romance her. 

Regarding morals, I don't believe that it's possible for anything to be "intrinsically wrong". IMO, moral statements have no relation to truth, but are taken up by human societies because of necessity. This influences the kind of heroic characters I prefer: My main Shepard would sacrifice himself - mind, body and soul if you believe in such a thing - and others for a good outcome if necessary, but not risk extinction for the sake of a principle. Or that's how it looks from my point of view.

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I'm coming from the opposite side - this is one of my most disliked tropes and I liked to make fun of paladins when playing D&D I've always been drawn to those stories where someone needed to do something horrific to secure a good outcome.

I don't know.  I guess I like a sense of honor creating an internal conflict in those scenarios.  If the just does horrible things and then justifies them that they are for the better good and no big deal well the horrible act is not very compelling.

No, of course not. I'm not one who would place no value in one's own integrity. There is always a desire for the ultimate, untainted good outcome where nobody must suffer and nobody must compromise one's own integrity. But the conflict comes from the fact that if you choose to keep your own honor intact, you may doom others by that. 

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
There is always a desire for the ultimate, untainted good outcome where nobody must suffer and nobody must compromise one's own integrity.

Ah so this is your most hate trope not the trope where somebody makes the decision to doom others out of a moral code.  I misunderstood.

This particular thing seems pretty universal to video games and is so expected, that "perfect" ending, that not having it practically creates a player revolt.

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
You're so certain that you're right that you're willing to risk the galaxy for it? I must admit that such a mindset is impossible for me to comprehend. I wonder if you would still think so if you really had to make such a decision. Probably there are certain things I couldn't do regardless of the circumstances either, but I would regard this inability as a flaw.

From my perspective I think just the opposite.  It is you who are risking something obvious that has happened repeatedly by keeping it.[url]
You think this will turn into another Cerberus research disaster? There's still the question if it might be worth the risk this time. But I admit I'd rather have Mordin lead the research team than someone like Dr.Chandana (the leader of the Derelict Reaper research team). 

We will see who is right but I bet we both are since Shep will probably have a way to win either way.

There'll be a way to win regardless of the decision, of course. And I'm convinced there will be bad consequences for keeping the base. But I do hope that there will also be bad consequences for destroying it, and that there will be appropriate desirable consequences too for both paths, so that both decisions have about the same weight.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
There'll be a way to win regardless of the decision, of course. And I'm convinced there will be bad consequences for keeping the base. But I do hope that there will also be bad consequences for destroying it, and that there will be appropriate desirable consequences too for both paths, so that both decisions have about the same weight.

Woah.  I am confused yet pleased Ieldra2 and I can agree on the base.

I completely agree

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
There is always a desire for the ultimate, untainted good outcome where nobody must suffer and nobody must compromise one's own integrity.

Ah so this is your most hate trope not the trope where somebody makes the decision to doom others out of a moral code.  I misunderstood.

This particular thing seems pretty universal to video games and is so expected, that "perfect" ending, that not having it practically creates a player revolt.

No, you misunderstood this time. Admittedly, that kind of perfect ending is not my preferred one, but occasionally it's nice to have the option (like having everyone survive in ME2). I have nothing in principle against it except that it doesn't make a satisfying story, and most of the time it makes the end seem less real. To doom others for the sake of a principle, however, that one I really don't like.

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
There'll be a way to win regardless of the decision, of course. And I'm convinced there will be bad consequences for keeping the base. But I do hope that there will also be bad consequences for destroying it, and that there will be appropriate desirable consequences too for both paths, so that both decisions have about the same weight.

Woah.  I am confused yet pleased Ieldra2 and I can agree on the base.

I completely agree

Why confused? My latest post is written from a player's perspective, while my arguments for keeping the base are written from an in-world perspective. As Shepard, I could not make any other decision than to keep the base. As player and game critic I think it's desirable to make satisfying endings for both decision paths.

[jtav]

Ieldra, I think you may be right about why I torture Miranda in speculation and story ideas. I am an unhappily lapsed Roman Catholic who managed to retain chunks of the moral and ethical viewpoint. So I am coming at Miranda from a critical angle, though the only thing I find truly repulsive is the control chip. And I only made it hard in one story and am beginning to doubt there will be others.

[Ieldra]

Err...we've gone a bit OT here again. Let's rectify the situation with a Miranda picture.



And now good night. I've already been too long...

@jtav:
My answer will have to wait for 16 hours or so...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juin 2010 - 08:20 .

[jtav]

Good night. *runs off to shoot things in ME*

[philiposophy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

philiposophy wrote...
This is my first post in this thread, so I'll try to make it a good one and say why Miranda is one of my favourite characters and most common LI.

I'll start with the shallow reasons. First, she's based on Yvonne Strahovski so she's among the most beautiful characters in the game. Second, she's the best squadmate in the series so far. Her powers let her handle any defences and her passive is very good. I don't think there are any missions where taking her along is inadvisable.

So, deeper reasons. She's independent and competent, which I like a lot, as it makes her a great foil for Shepard. I like her professionalism too. She takes romance rejections very well, I recall, and doesn't get angry with you and simply accepts it may be a good idea to focus on the mission instead. Her backstory and character have depth and intrigue.

So yeah, Miranda for ME3, please.

Welcome, philiposophy. it's interesting to see yet another one who cites "she's independent and competent" as the first of the deeper reasons. There are various reasons to like her, but this is, as it seems, universal among those who like her in the first place. Have you looked into our original post? There's quite a lot of Miranda-related stuff collected there.

Thank you.

Yes, I have now looked at some of the things in the OP and you phrased it well in the FAQ about her playing "in the same league as Shepard". I find her appealing because she's both independent and a foil. She wouldn't lose her edge without Shepard. She has a lot of existing pedigree, of course.

Also, that online dialogue tree generator is pretty neat.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Why confused? My latest post is written from a player's perspective, while my arguments for keeping the base are written from an in-world perspective. As Shepard, I could not make any other decision than to keep the base. As player and game critic I think it's desirable to make satisfying endings for both decision paths.

Because for months in this thread we have been agreeing to disagree about it.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, you misunderstood this time. Admittedly, that kind of perfect ending is not my preferred one, but occasionally it's nice to have the option (like having everyone survive in ME2). I have nothing in principle against it except that it doesn't make a satisfying story, and most of the time it makes the end seem less real. To doom others for the sake of a principle, however, that one I really don't like.

Well it may not necessarily be admirable but it makes for an interesting story.  The dooming others for the sake of principal part.