15168 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Miranda/Jacob is something I prefer to leave in the backstory, but the number of people who are upset that it ever happened annoys me. I've managed to stay away from Miranda exactly once as a maleShep, but I strongly prefer playing FemShep. So I can resist her. I just wish there was a friendship path or a sense that we have a relationship. Just because I'm not sleeping with her doesn't mean I don't care. As for my preference for non-canon, well, I suppose it's because I identify more strongly with her than Shep.

[Nightwriter]

Okay, enayasoul, I think I hear him say "... stable" (something that ends in "able" anyway) and I DEFINITELY hear "data simulated".

I can almost certainly hear "we've come too late".

Then something that sounds like "didn't know him as well as you"??

And then a word that sounds like "machine" - during which he actually points to a machine, so that's pretty clear.

However I do not hear Miranda saying "no". Her first word isn't one syllable it's two. Sounds like... "I knew it"?? Her last word is one syllable. Sounds like "here".

If anyone's interested, I'm watching this, a log of all the vids: 

To hear this one stop it at 5:47.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 21 octobre 2010 - 03:09 .

[jtav]

In the "jtav over thinks things" department, The Prodigal is a bit of an odd name for Miranda's LM. Yes, she ran away, but the prodigal son didn't just run away, he deeply insulted a father who loved him, squandered everything Dad gave him, and had to come crawling back and beg forgiveness. For the metaphor to really fit, Lawson would have had to genuinely love his daughters and not be abusive. Which would turn Miranda into an egotistical drama queen who kidnapped a child from her father and callously manipulated Shepard. She'd be a horrible monster, which isn't true. I know there's been some language drift, but my first association will always be the Bible story. Twenty years in a fundamentalist church followed by a conversion to Catholicism will do that.



Apologies, I was reading a commentary on the story and have it on the brain.

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...
Okay, enayasoul, I think I hear him say "... stable" (something that ends in "able" anyway) and I DEFINITELY hear "data simulated".

I can almost certainly hear "we've come too late".

Then something that sounds like "didn't know him as well as you"??

And then a word that sounds like "machine" - during which he actually points to a machine, so that's pretty clear.

However I do not hear Miranda saying "no". Her first word isn't one syllable it's two. Sounds like... "I knew it"?? Her last word is one syllable. Sounds like "here".

If anyone's interested, I'm watching this, a log of all the vids: 

To hear this one stop it at 5:47.

Thanks for the link, Nightwriter. I'm unable to get it in-game because you must do a mission between the second and the third set, and I have no missions left with any of my Shepards.

I have no contributions to the deciphering, except that I think the last word has two syllables.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I know there's been some language drift, but my first association will always be the Bible story.

I think they got that wrong at Bioware. Likely they wanted to say "Prodigy", which would make more sense.

Twenty years in a fundamentalist church followed by a conversion to Catholicism will do that.

20 years - and you're still sane? You have my utmost respect.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 octobre 2010 - 06:55 .

[aeetos21]

I don't know how many of you pumped your fist at the end of ME1 when you saw your Shepard (and he/she really was your Shepard) climb out of the rubble of the Citadel but when I did I had a weird sense of attachment, given all the battles and choices that I myself made. Hell my Shepard even looked like me! So naturally when I carried him into ME2 I felt a little off when it was confirmed that M and J had a relationship and were still working with each other in close proximity given they were both part of the squad. Add to that the Shadow Broker DLC that (yeah anybody who can read body language knows that was a sign of the two about to get it on) showed how she handled relationships in the past and yeah, you get a sense of jealousy or even betrayl.



But those feelings are natural, if not entirely healthy, and honestly (and this really says a LOT about Miranda/Shepard relationship) it's the same kind of baggage real life adults have to deal in real life adult relationships. This is one of the biggest reasons I'm for this ship because it adds more depth that just isn't there in some of the other ships: Tali, Garrus, Jacob, Kaiden, and Jack specifically. In those it's less of a relationship and more of Shepard taking the lead with them behing and supporting them instead of walking beside, which is great for a friendshup but for long term consummate relationship? I think having someone who gives as good as they get should be the ideal but that's just me.



So in the end I am happy that BW presented us with those scenes because it showed just far Miranda has come as a character. This is even more confirmed when Liara remarks to Shepard how much Miranda has grown in good character, Miranda's research into a dream of eventually becoming a mother, and when Miranda quits Cerberus to remain faithful to Shepard.



The only complaint I have is to give us more Miranda and Shep scenes to help reinforce their relationship with each other because given the choices Shepard might have made in ME1 Miranda's baggage will be the least of Shepard's headaches.

[jtav]

It wasn't so bad. It's part of why I have such mixed feelings about Miranda. I'm strongly deontological in my ethics and some of the things she says and does are things I consider immoral, and her creation would raise several red flags for me if she were real.

I remember a discussion in the old thread about how we'd feel if Lawson was revealed to be not so bad. I was surprised at the number of people who said they;d forgive her. If Lawson did nothing to warrant Oriana's removal and Miranda stole a baby from a loving but distant father, she's done something horrible. Kidnapping, risking Shepard's life and the mission so she could get away with it, possibly murdering Niket. She would have manipulated Shepard. She'd be nothing more than a sociopath.

Fortunately, I don't believe this to be true. She took steps to remove her sister from an unhealthy environment, and it's to her credit that she did so. Her love for Oriana mitigates a lot of my misgivings about her. If you ever wonder why I'm on this thread, her LM is why. I started cryong when she introduced herself to Oriana and have been a goner ever since.

Modifié par jtav, 21 octobre 2010 - 07:25 .

[aeetos21]

Heh, although it certainly helps if your a Mir Shipper threads like these are specifically designed to influence the developers into having her character included in the conclusion of the triology. How much effect they/we have?...???

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
It wasn't so bad. It's part of why I have such mixed feelings about Miranda. I'm strongly deontological in my ethics and some of the things she says and does are things I consider immoral, and her creation would raise several red flags for me if she were real.

You've said that before, but which "red flags" are you talking about here?

I remember a discussion in the old thread about how we'd feel if Lawson was revealed to be not so bad. I was surprised at the number of people who said they;d forgive her. If Lawson did nothing to warrant Oriana's removal and Miranda stole a baby from a loving but distant father, she's done something horrible. Kidnapping, risking Shepard's life and the mission so she could get away with it, possibly murdering Niket. She would have manipulated Shepard. She'd be nothing more than a sociopath.

I don't recall what I said, but likely it was that it would depend on the details. I think it's possible, though not likely, that Miranda was mistaken about a few things, and if she was mistaken instead of deluding herself or acting as a sociopath then I see that as forgiveable.

Fortunately, I don't believe this to be true. She took steps to remove her sister from an unhealthy environment, and it's to her credit that she did so. Her love for Oriana mitigates a lot of my misgivings about her. If you ever wonder why I'm on this thread, her LM is why. I started cryong when she introduced herself to Oriana and have been a goner ever since.

Yes, I also don't believe that, and her love for Oriana is indeed very obvious. One of the things I always do in ME2 is to tell her to speak with Oriana.

[Ieldra]

aeetos21 wrote...
Heh, although it certainly helps if your a Mir Shipper threads like these are specifically designed to influence the developers into having her character included in the conclusion of the triology. How much effect they/we have?...???

In the decision about whether to include her or not? Almost no influence, I'd say. VA availability and cost on one side, and game feedback on the other would play a significantly bigger role, they can tell from that how many people romanced Miranda and how the decisions went in her missions.
Once it's decided that she will be included, they may look at our thread for inspiration. So, just in case anyone important reads this: read the OP, please, and the 10 reasons why we like Miranda in the Miranda Lawson FAQ. 

@all:
Do you think those reasons why we like Miranda should be part of the OP, or is the OP already too big and the stuff should stay linked? 

[Mox Ruuga]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, I also don't believe that, and her love for Oriana is indeed very obvious. One of the things I always do in ME2 is to tell her to speak with Oriana.

I haven't had a playthrough I didn't have her meet with her sister.

It is one of the most moving parts of Mass Effect so far.

When Bioware talks about "cinematic presentation", THAT is the sort of thing they should aim for.

[jtav]

I suspect the decision about how much Miranda content there will be was made long ago. What I'm hoping we've influenced/are influencing is the type of content we get. I did not fall in love with Miranda because of "dat ass." I feel in love with a competent, pragmatic female character who could have been a protagonist in her own right. That's what I want to see more of.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I feel in love with a competent, pragmatic female character who could have been a protagonist in her own right. That's what I want to see more of.

Subscribed 100%.

[Mox Ruuga]

I hope that since Liara wasn't tarted up in LotSB, they got the general message about all the cheese cake and ass shots. It may work on 12-year olds, but their adult audience wasn't all that impressed...

I suspect Miranda will still be sexy, but far less objectified. They will probably lampshade some of the ME2 luridness in ME3... Perhaps Miranda will even wear armor!? 

Then again, this is me feeling optimistic. I'll give my "realist" opinion on a later date.

[jtav]

Stupid typos.



Ieldra, I'm afraid I'll come off like a raving lunatic, but it's mostly the idea that a mother is unnecessary that bothers me, along with the complete divorce of the sex and reproduction, even above and beyond IVF. Less controversially, Lawson was never interested in a family but in creating something in his own image to feed his own ego. It's not what children are for. Even granting his methods, the motive corrupts the whole thing.

[jtav]

I have no objection to sexy, but the objectification really bothered me and made me embarrassed to admit I like her. I suspect it was a factor in her low score among females in the last poll. Do men find that sort of thing attractive.

[Ieldra]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I hope that since Liara wasn't tarted up in LotSB, they got the general message about all the cheese cake and ass shots. It may work on 12-year olds, but their adult audience wasn't all that impressed...

I suspect Miranda will still be sexy, but far less objectified. They will probably lampshade some of the ME2 luridness in ME3... Perhaps Miranda will even wear armor!?

Liara's outfit in LotSB is great! I had feared they'd give her something similar to what she had in Redemption. If Miranda goes in the same direction that would be very much OK. 

Yep, another point on the wishlist: give Miranda a more convincing outfit.

[Mox Ruuga]

Okay, if you were the savvy and self-effacing Bioware writer who got the job of writing Miranda for ME3, how would you "lampshade" some of the criticisms of her character from ME2? Think how Shepard got to snap to Liara about "sending him on more hacking errands", or how Garrus teased Tali about her "tales of the quarian folk customs" in ME2.

Miranda's a big girl, she can take it! (and if it's funny, people will love her even more).

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Ieldra, I'm afraid I'll come off like a raving lunatic, but it's mostly the idea that a mother is unnecessary that bothers me, along with the complete divorce of the sex and reproduction, even above and beyond IVF. Less controversially, Lawson was never interested in a family but in creating something in his own image to feed his own ego. It's not what children are for. Even granting his methods, the motive corrupts the whole thing.

jtav, you're the only one here who would voice opinions in a completely polite way and still fear she'll come across as a lunatic. No worry, really. And I did ask.

An interesting viewpoint, though. For me, the divorce of sex and reproduction seems not only unproblematic, but even desirable as an option (more options are always good), and the absence of a mother bothers me only insofar as that an important social function was missing. Not that you can separate the social from the biological 100%, but you know what I mean. 

As for Mr.Lawson's motives, you're absolutely correct. I recall having said that he created an improved human genetic template with desirable traits - all in all a good thing IMO - for all the wrong reasons. That's only his fault, though, none of that should fall back on Miranda.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 octobre 2010 - 08:42 .

[enayasoul]

jtav wrote...

It wasn't so bad. It's part of why I have such mixed feelings about Miranda. I'm strongly deontological in my ethics and some of the things she says and does are things I consider immoral, and her creation would raise several red flags for me if she were real.

I remember a discussion in the old thread about how we'd feel if Lawson was revealed to be not so bad. I was surprised at the number of people who said they;d forgive her. If Lawson did nothing to warrant Oriana's removal and Miranda stole a baby from a loving but distant father, she's done something horrible. Kidnapping, risking Shepard's life and the mission so she could get away with it, possibly murdering Niket. She would have manipulated Shepard. She'd be nothing more than a sociopath.

Fortunately, I don't believe this to be true. She took steps to remove her sister from an unhealthy environment, and it's to her credit that she did so. Her love for Oriana mitigates a lot of my misgivings about her. If you ever wonder why I'm on this thread, her LM is why. I started cryong when she introduced herself to Oriana and have been a goner ever since.

Yep. I cried at that part too. I also cried when the new normandy was revealed and unleased and at the end when they were going into the omega 4 relay and escaping out of the collector base.  A very intense, action packed sequence of events.

Having Tali in the shaft, really made my shepard move his ass. Hold on tali!! 

Modifié par enayasoul, 21 octobre 2010 - 09:03 .

[jtav]

None of it should fall back on Miranda anyway. She, or her real-world equivalent, has full human dignity regardless of how she was created. The sin is all her father's. Now if on;y she believed she had that intrinsic dignity.

[enayasoul]

aeetos21 wrote...

I don't know how many of you pumped your fist at the end of ME1 when you saw your Shepard (and he/she really was your Shepard) climb out of the rubble of the Citadel but when I did I had a weird sense of attachment, given all the battles and choices that I myself made. Hell my Shepard even looked like me! So naturally when I carried him into ME2 I felt a little off when it was confirmed that M and J had a relationship and were still working with each other in close proximity given they were both part of the squad. Add to that the Shadow Broker DLC that (yeah anybody who can read body language knows that was a sign of the two about to get it on) showed how she handled relationships in the past and yeah, you get a sense of jealousy or even betrayl.

But those feelings are natural, if not entirely healthy, and honestly (and this really says a LOT about Miranda/Shepard relationship) it's the same kind of baggage real life adults have to deal in real life adult relationships. This is one of the biggest reasons I'm for this ship because it adds more depth that just isn't there in some of the other ships: Tali, Garrus, Jacob, Kaiden, and Jack specifically. In those it's less of a relationship and more of Shepard taking the lead with them behing and supporting them instead of walking beside, which is great for a friendshup but for long term consummate relationship? I think having someone who gives as good as they get should be the ideal but that's just me.

So in the end I am happy that BW presented us with those scenes because it showed just far Miranda has come as a character. This is even more confirmed when Liara remarks to Shepard how much Miranda has grown in good character, Miranda's research into a dream of eventually becoming a mother, and when Miranda quits Cerberus to remain faithful to Shepard.

The only complaint I have is to give us more Miranda and Shep scenes to help reinforce their relationship with each other because given the choices Shepard might have made in ME1 Miranda's baggage will be the least of Shepard's headaches.

Yes, I agree what you are saying.  I to want more scenes with Miranda and Shep relationship.  More growth to both as a couple.  I want to see how she overcomes letting him in and being happy.   
My shep was jealous of that scene and her nod to something... sexual...   I just hope it was something innocent like work or working on his body. :happy:

[fortunesque]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I hope that since Liara wasn't tarted up in LotSB, they got the general message about all the cheese cake and ass shots. It may work on 12-year olds, but their adult audience wasn't all that impressed...

I suspect Miranda will still be sexy, but far less objectified. They will probably lampshade some of the ME2 luridness in ME3... Perhaps Miranda will even wear armor!? 

Then again, this is me feeling optimistic. I'll give my "realist" opinion on a later date.

Oh, I really hope they get rid of the camera angles on Miranda in ME3. She's a classy lady and I hate that she's just a piece of ass to some people. 

What do you all think about an outfit change for her? I'd love to see something less erm... revealing. Perhaps an officer's uniform? She'd probably make a paper bag look good XD

[jtav]

Same here. The camera angles embarrass me. An officer's uniform. Proper armor. Throw me a bone here.



And nice to see another Kaidan fan.

[Mox Ruuga]

fortunesque wrote...

Oh, I really hope they get rid of the camera angles on Miranda in ME3. She's a classy lady and I hate that she's just a piece of ass to some people. 

What do you all think about an outfit change for her? I'd love to see something less erm... revealing. Perhaps an officer's uniform? She'd probably make a paper bag look good XD

Something similar to what Aria wears, perhaps without the erm... "windows"? tho. Or a cool business outfit. And armor similar in concept to what Mordin and LotSB Liara wore, if we get to take her into combat again.

Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing how she'd carry off a classy evening gown, if there was another mission similar to Kasumi's LM in ME3, and she was involved. Floor length, perhaps with an open back?

And no more of the objectifying camera angles, no matter what she wears!