15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

 So, providing you kept the base (come on, Ieldra and I can't be the only ones) how many of you do you think it would be Miranda that TIM puts in charge to studying it to unlock it's potential myriad of secrets?

Myriad... I like that word, I don't get to use it nearly enough though. That and 'alas.' I digress (which is also an awesome word!... Alas)

Very unlikely. We can see in Miranda's reactions to Cerberus' "messier" projects that she doesn't get exposed to this kind of stuff on a regular basis. TIM likely doesn't put Miranda in charge of projects like Teltin very often unless there's no alternative because she has a bit of idealism in her, despite what she may claim. TIM wouldn't want someone like Mirana in charge of playing with the Collector base, he'd want someone more willing to get their hands dirty and more... expendable.

You automatically expect studying the base would involve the darker side of Cerberus? Why? Just because people were killed there doesn't mean it will become like Teltin in Cerberus' hands.
Having said that, I also think it's unlikely, if only because that would put Miranda in a different place in games where you keep the base.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

jtav wrote...
Ieldra, I'm afraid I'll come off like a raving lunatic, but it's mostly the idea that a mother is unnecessary that bothers me, along with the complete divorce of the sex and reproduction, even above and beyond IVF. Less controversially, Lawson was never interested in a family but in creating something in his own image to feed his own ego. It's not what children are for. Even granting his methods, the motive corrupts the whole thing.

I agree with you jtav, I find the complete divorce of sex and reproduction uncomfortable. This has nothing to do with my religions tendencies, since I have none, but it completely trivialises key biological imperatives since in an adult human, sexual differences and tendencies actually dictate a large part of our behaviour consciously or unconsciously.

I can understand being uncomfortable with it, but would you make it an ethical concern? Also, I don't see how it trivializes anything if you have the option to divorce sex and reproduction like it was done with Miranda. Sure, it may change the functionality of some human behaviour in the long run, but that's not trivializing. What I wouldn't like is to *restrict* reproduction to methods where sex doesn't come into it any more, but even there I would make it a moral concern only if the restriction was not freely chosen, or if it's made to be inherited by the offspring.
I might add that it would be interesting to envision a society where that complete separation is the norm and explore possible behavior changes resulting from it. Probably some SF writer has already done it, but I don't recall anything.

fortunesque wrote...
I really want to see this happen. Though Miranda carries herself with a lot of dignity, she seems to have a very poor self-esteem. 

I agree with Miranda needing some sort of reconciliation with the terms of her origins, but invariably I get very irritated when people say she has poor self-esteem. What insecurities she harbours about her abilities and competence only comes into light when conversing with Shepard, who has a strong case made out for him in that you don't need to be designed to do the impossible. Miranda will not have such issues talking to other members of the crew.

As a player we have to always keep in mind that all our information is filtered through Shepard, and people talking to Shepard bring along with their perceptions of who Shepard is when conversing with him. Anyone would feel inadequate talking to a Marty Stu like him, but they would accept that they cannot be who he is and thus it doesn't become an issue. 

Miranda is the only human squadmate seen to have an active problem with this because she's always working to become the kind of figure Shepard is. I'd say that puts her sense of self esteem far higher than ordinary people. She's only made to feel inadequate because of the insane expectations she places on herself, and and her attempt to compare herself to Shepard who literally falls into the top 0.001 percentile of the human population. 

I agree with this. I've often said people make too much of her self-esteem issues. But how do you interpret "The only things I can take credit for are my mistakes". That's a very bad way to think of yourself, and it doesn't sound as if it only applied in comparison to Shepard, even if the conversation is about that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@all:
Do you think those reasons why we like Miranda should be part of the OP, or is the OP already too big and the stuff should stay linked? 

reasons for liking her should be in, even at the expense of other stuff. on the off chance someone from BW does check the forum (which i doubt they do, at least for this reason), they are more likely to read a first post than any page thereafter.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

 So, providing you kept the base (come on, Ieldra and I can't be the only ones) how many of you do you think it would be Miranda that TIM puts in charge to studying it to unlock it's potential myriad of secrets?

Myriad... I like that word, I don't get to use it nearly enough though. That and 'alas.' I digress (which is also an awesome word!... Alas)

Very unlikely. We can see in Miranda's reactions to Cerberus' "messier" projects that she doesn't get exposed to this kind of stuff on a regular basis. TIM likely doesn't put Miranda in charge of projects like Teltin very often unless there's no alternative because she has a bit of idealism in her, despite what she may claim. TIM wouldn't want someone like Mirana in charge of playing with the Collector base, he'd want someone more willing to get their hands dirty and more... expendable.

You automatically expect studying the base would involve the darker side of Cerberus? Why? Just because people were killed there doesn't mean it will become like Teltin in Cerberus' hands.
Having said that, I also think it's unlikely, if only because that would put Miranda in a different place in games where you keep the base.

i kept the base in several playthroughs, but given the forced moral choice and the lack of sensible options otherwise, i doubt it'll have any impact in the future, and it's unlikely therefore that anybody important will be wasted on "studying" it.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You automatically expect studying the base would involve the darker side of Cerberus? Why? Just because people were killed there doesn't mean it will become like Teltin in Cerberus' hands.
Having said that, I also think it's unlikely, if only because that would put Miranda in a different place in games where you keep the base.

The method used to create Reapers is some technobabble that for some inexplicable reason requires the liquification of living human beings. It's not enough to just throw in some meat, or cloned replicas, you actually need the genuine article. I find the idea ridiculous and just an artificial construct written to evoke horror and disgust from players, but nevertheless that's how Reapers are made.

Given how far ahead Reaper tech is, and how little Cerberus and the rest of the galaxy know about it, how do you think Cerberus would go about studying this process of turning people into some wonderous eldritch material that is used to construct Reapers? In Retribution, TIM didn't choose to study Reaper tech then by observing it in its inert form and making testable hypotheses about it. He tracked down a living enemy and implanted it. The results were gruesome, but even people who think it was unnecessarily dangerous have to admit this would probably have been the method that would yield results the most quickly.

What if the quickest way to figure out the Reaper-making process is to liquify a few humans of your own? I'm not saying Cerberus would attempt the ridiculous nonsense of attempting to create a Reaper themselves, but trying to replicate a bit of the material Reaper cores are made of isn't beyond the bounds of imagination is it? Sure, a more ethical researcher might simply try to salvage pieces of the 'baby' Reaper that Shepard destroyed, but that method might not yield everything that Cerberus would want to know.

If it came down to it, I think TIM would have cause to wonder if Miranda might balk at measures like deliberately sacrificing human beings in such a way, even if they were volunteers.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Ieldra, I'm afraid I'll come off like a raving lunatic, but it's mostly the idea that a mother is unnecessary that bothers me, along with the complete divorce of the sex and reproduction, even above and beyond IVF. Less controversially, Lawson was never interested in a family but in creating something in his own image to feed his own ego. It's not what children are for. Even granting his methods, the motive corrupts the whole thing.

jtav, you're the only one here who would voice opinions in a completely polite way and still fear she'll come across as a lunatic. No worry, really. And I did ask.

An interesting viewpoint, though. For me, the divorce of sex and reproduction seems not only unproblematic, but even desirable as an option (more options are always good), and the absence of a mother bothers me only insofar as that an important social function was missing. Not that you can separate the social from the biological 100%, but you know what I mean. 

As for Mr.Lawson's motives, you're absolutely correct. I recall having said that he created an improved human genetic template with desirable traits - all in all a good thing IMO - for all the wrong reasons. That's only his fault, though, none of that should fall back on Miranda.  

plenty of animals reproduce without traditional 'sex' as humans do (hell, in actuality we're the tiny minority in combining enjoying said act and performing it without necessarily focusing on the reproductive side compared to 99% animal kingdom), so the divorce of the two in miranda's creation is really a non-issue for me. her father's motives, of course, are though as is, as Ieldra quite rightly said, the absence of at least one proper parental figure as a social function.

[Jebel Krong]

you are right, fongiel, but - aside from revenge - the fact that even TIM only used it on an enemy whilst simultaneously having the benefit of seeing it's resultant effect, shows that even he is wary of just "experimenting on people" with it.

[fongiel24]

Jebel Krong wrote...

you are right, fongiel, but - aside from revenge - the fact that even TIM only used it on an enemy whilst simultaneously having the benefit of seeing it's resultant effect, shows that even he is wary of just "experimenting on people" with it.

But can you even see Miranda sacrificing someone she absolutely hated, like her father? I think she'd struggle even with that. The only reason she's even able to rationalize the Reapers and the Husks is that they're already dead. Would she have been able to rationalize them so easily if Cerberus had had to create them by experimenting on live subjects and she knew about it?

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I can understand being uncomfortable with it, but would you make it an ethical concern? Also, I don't see how it trivializes anything if you have the option to divorce sex and reproduction like it was done with Miranda. Sure, it may change the functionality of some human behaviour in the long run, but that's not trivializing. What I wouldn't like is to *restrict* reproduction to methods where sex doesn't come into it any more, but even there I would make it a moral concern only if the restriction was not freely chosen, or if it's made to be inherited by the offspring.
I might add that it would be interesting to envision a society where that complete separation is the norm and explore possible behavior changes resulting from it. Probably some SF writer has already done it, but I don't recall anything.

When I say it trivialises sex and reproduction is alot of our biological make-up exist primary for the purpose of reproduction. The existence of different genders, psychological behaviors, and a whole lot of other things exist because of that. Divorcing sex from reproduction means discounting the fundamental reasons for those differences and making them non-issues. I'm generally fine with isolated examples like in the case of Miranda, but I would make a strong statement if something like this was a norm.

I can think of a couple of SF scenarios where that has happened, mostly post-apocalytic stories where biological reproduction is impossible to the human race anymore. Unfortunately, none of them attempt to explore the consequences of such an issue deep enough to my satisfaction.  

I agree with this. I've often said people make too much of her self-esteem issues. But how do you interpret "The only things I can take credit for are my mistakes". That's a very bad way to think of yourself, and it doesn't sound as if it only applied in comparison to Shepard, even if the conversation is about that.

I'm not attempting to say she doesn't have real fears and moments of doubts. But to that sentence, I would also point out how she says "I do damn good work" on the Lazarus Project as rebuke and rebuttal against Shepard's c**kiness. She obviously recognises that bringing the dead to life again is a notable feat and something to be proud of. 

Sense of perspective is what I feel is the issue here. She's not going to get all anguished because she fails to connect with people on a social level, or fail an academic exam for example. Such things don't bother her or are absolute non-issues as in she can't realistically fail them. Likewise with her perception of herself as a tool. She may see herself as a tool, but it would be an extraordinary tool, not the usual kind we would think of. The goals and objectives Miranda is concerned with play out on a far higher level and scale. Preventing extinctions, saving whole planets, the betterment of humanity with far-reaching consequences are the things that matter to her. High stakes are naturally included when playing on such a field and mistakes would be truly dire. Saying "the only things I can take credit for are my mistakes" is her own way of recognising the outrageous requirements of her goals and the consequences should she fail. It humanises her and takes hubris, a common pitfall in those attempting grand schemes, away as a factor in her endeavours, or at least it makes her aware that she would be susceptible to it. It's why I feel that her self-validation must come with the realisation of a momentous achievement. What that achievement is I can't begin to imagine, since she didn't seem to consider the sucess of Project Lazarus as one.

All in all, what I mean to say is when someone states she has a low sense of self-esteem, the criteria by which Miranda personally judges this must come into consideration, because those criteria lies far beyond our usual perception of what a person with a low sense of self-esteem is.  

Modifié par Elyvern, 22 octobre 2010 - 09:54 .

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
you are right, fongiel, but - aside from revenge - the fact that even TIM only used it on an enemy whilst simultaneously having the benefit of seeing it's resultant effect, shows that even he is wary of just "experimenting on people" with it.

But can you even see Miranda sacrificing someone she absolutely hated, like her father? I think she'd struggle even with that. The only reason she's even able to rationalize the Reapers and the Husks is that they're already dead. Would she have been able to rationalize them so easily if Cerberus had had to create them by experimenting on live subjects and she knew about it?

Her father is a special case, let's not go there. Hate wouldn't motivate her anyway. Instead, I can see her using captured enemies or criminals of the sort who wrote you the email after Purgatory. I can see her saying "If they must die anyway, they might as well do it in a useful way". 
Having said that, I don't think she'd take part in experiments that would require *many* humans to be killed like that. Also, when I said I found it possible, if unlikely that Miranda would lead the Cerberus team studying the base, I did assume that no further human experiments would be necessary, so that if she lead the team, there wouldn't be more of that, as opposed to under some other Cerberus scientists. I suspect TIM would study the Reaperizing process in more detail than needed for finding their weaknesses, but Miranda likely wouldn't if killing humans en masse were required. Maybe even TIM wouldn't. At some point, "humanity" resolves into "groups of humans", even for someone like him.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:01 .

[enayasoul]

hooahguy wrote...

Or we could just make things simple and have Miri wear what Sarah Walker wears:

That works for me.

[Jebel Krong]

fongiel24 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

you are right, fongiel, but - aside from revenge - the fact that even TIM only used it on an enemy whilst simultaneously having the benefit of seeing it's resultant effect, shows that even he is wary of just "experimenting on people" with it.

But can you even see Miranda sacrificing someone she absolutely hated, like her father? I think she'd struggle even with that. The only reason she's even able to rationalize the Reapers and the Husks is that they're already dead. Would she have been able to rationalize them so easily if Cerberus had had to create them by experimenting on live subjects and she knew about it?

intelligent people can rationalise a lot - she killed whatshisface without a second thought and she would have implanted shep with a control chip. would she experiment on live subjects? at the beginning of the game i'd say she might well, once you get to know her and she loosens up, no - definitely not. but then is her problem only one of empathy? with people she doesn't know she can maintain detachment, once she does do her emotions get in the way (overcompensating for lack of emotional intimacy)? she's on the edge, sure, but that's part of what makes her so interesting.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I can understand being uncomfortable with it, but would you make it an ethical concern? Also, I don't see how it trivializes anything if you have the option to divorce sex and reproduction like it was done with Miranda. Sure, it may change the functionality of some human behaviour in the long run, but that's not trivializing. What I wouldn't like is to *restrict* reproduction to methods where sex doesn't come into it any more, but even there I would make it a moral concern only if the restriction was not freely chosen, or if it's made to be inherited by the offspring.
I might add that it would be interesting to envision a society where that complete separation is the norm and explore possible behavior changes resulting from it. Probably some SF writer has already done it, but I don't recall anything.

When I say it trivialises sex and reproduction is alot of our biological make-up exist primary for the purpose of reproduction. The existence of different genders, psychological behaviors, and a whole lot of other things exist because of that. Divorcing sex from reproduction means discounting the fundamental reasons for those differences and making them non-issues.

What's wrong in making them non-issues? We've started on the way there when contraception was invented - and the earliest documented example of that is from ancient Egypt. Sure, going the whole way may change the human species in fundamental ways in the long run, and I don't say it's desirable at this point in our development, nor even in ME's timeline. Maybe never, I wouldn't know. But it is a possible development, and that it might make non-issues of some aspects of our biology doesn't make it undesirable. In fictional universes, I'd only object to it if the author introduced separation of sex and reproduction, but blithely assumed everything else stays the same. It would also be hard to mentally get into protagonists from a society where this has been the norm for a long time, but that's the challenge of SF.

(I can agree with your arguments about Miranda's self-esteem)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:17 .

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Her father is a special case, let's not go there. Hate wouldn't motivate her anyway. Instead, I can see her using captured enemies or criminals of the sort who wrote you the email after Purgatory. I can see her saying "If they must die anyway, they might as well do it in a useful way". 
Having said that, I don't think she'd take part in experiments that would require *many* humans to be killed like that. Also, when I said I found it possible, if unlikely that Miranda would lead the Cerberus team studying the base, I did assume that no further human experiments would be necessary, so that if she lead the team, there wouldn't be more of that, as opposed to under some other Cerberus scientists. I suspect TIM would study the Reaperizing process in more detail than needed for finding their weaknesses, but Miranda likely wouldn't if killing humans en masse were required. Maybe even TIM wouldn't. At some point, "humanity" resolves into "groups of humans", even for someone like him.

If he were to pick a project lead for studying the Collector station, I'm not sure even TIM would know exactly what the would entail. It might be possible to study the Reaper-making process without requiring the sacrifice of humans but then again it might not. I think that uncertainty about the methods that could be required would prevent him from picking Miranda. Miranda probably doesn't have a problem with killing people when it's necessary, maybe even torturing them in extreme situations, but liquifying them alive crosses some lines for her I think. 

Jebel Krong wrote...

intelligent people can rationalise a lot - she killed whatshisface without a second thought and she would have implanted shep with a control chip. would she experiment on live subjects? at the beginning of the game i'd say she might well, once you get to know her and she loosens up, no - definitely not. but then is her problem only one of empathy? with people she doesn't know she can maintain detachment, once she does do her emotions get in the way (overcompensating for lack of emotional intimacy)? she's on the edge, sure, but that's part of what makes her so interesting.

The would really depend on what kind of experiments we're talking about when you mention experimentation on live subjects. Would they be volunteers? Would it be fatal? If so, would the fatality be guaranteed or is there a chance of survival? How high is this chance? How painful would it be?

Miranda executing Wilson was done quickly and cleanly. Wilson literally just looks at her and she shoots him in the chest. Implanting Shepard with a control chip would be done while Shepard was still knocked out. Shepard likely wouldn't even be aware that it's there. Making a Reaper smoothie out of someone is obviously in a separate league. You can actually see the terror in Kelly's (or the colonist) eyes and hear her screams. I'd argue that goes even beyond any horrors Miranda would be willing to inflict through normal means.

Miranda can probably rationalize a lot, give the kind of work she does and who she works for, but I'm sure there are areas even she won't stray into.

Modifié par fongiel24, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:18 .

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...

hooahguy wrote...

Or we could just make things simple and have Miri wear what Sarah Walker wears:

That works for me.

Except for the high heels. Is there agreement on another entry in the wishlist: no high heels for the on-mission outift.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:22 .

[Elyvern]

A little tangential but still relevant: how much of Miranda's morally ambiguous and pragmatic nature came from her time with Cerberus and how much of it was already there when she chose to abduct her sister and run away from her father?

I know Ieldra made a good case of her father opening her eyes up to the real workings of the world in his fanfic, and that the seeds of her adult personality were planted as a consequence of her learning the truth of being subjected to her father's maniplations. In-game evidence does seem to support this in the sense that it felt like she had to learn to protect herself and her interests from an early age after getting over the horror of whatever knowledge she gleaned from her father's intentions or motivations.

And it also seems like TIM didn't really try to "brainwash" her during her time in Cerberus, but rather he simply sounded out her limits and then arrange for her jobs that wouldn't attempt to stretch those limits to the breaking point. However, I keep thinking there has to be more, because the act of breaking away from the Alliance equates treason, which is a very serious charge. Every operative within would have to make the personal choice even if it is a non-issue in the sense that they are already persuaded, or be neck-deep in Cerberus operations as to make a breakaway unfeasible.

Modifié par Elyvern, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:34 .

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except for the high heels. Is there agreement on another entry in the wishlist: no high heels for the on-mission outift.

They will never remove Miranda's high heels, because Miranda would be a little smaller and it will cause too much problems during cinematics.
But I hope they will change this in ME3.

Modifié par Yannkee, 22 octobre 2010 - 10:45 .

[Jebel Krong]

fongiel24 wrote...

The would really depend on what kind of experiments we're talking about when you mention experimentation on live subjects. Would they be volunteers? Would it be fatal? If so, would the fatality be guaranteed or is there a chance of survival? How high is this chance? How painful would it be?

Miranda executing Wilson was done quickly and cleanly. Wilson literally just looks at her and she shoots him in the chest. Implanting Shepard with a control chip would be done while Shepard was still knocked out. Shepard likely wouldn't even be aware that it's there. Making a Reaper smoothie out of someone is obviously in a separate league. You can actually see the terror in Kelly's (or the colonist) eyes and hear her screams. I'd argue that goes even beyond any horrors Miranda would be willing to inflict through normal means.

Miranda can probably rationalize a lot, give the kind of work she does and who she works for, but I'm sure there are areas even she won't stray into.

i disagree - i don't think it's important whether the subjects were volunteers/fatal etc i think it depends entirely on the situation and the nature of the experiment - whilst wilson (thankyou) was quick and clean, as you'd expect, implanting a control chip could have gotten messy, especially if it had happened and then she'd gotten to know shepard in the same way as she does and it's not such a big step from that to reaper tech/whatever: if TIM had said to Miranda during lazarus "we've got some reaper tech we want to enhance shepard with", would she have done it? yes she damn well would and then followed the result. she then wouldn't have become attached in anyway, keeping her distance, and be prepared to take steps to end the experiment quickly and cleanly, thereafter.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

What's wrong in making them non-issues? We've started on the way there when contraception was invented - and the earliest documented example of that is from ancient Egypt. Sure, going the whole way may change the human species in fundamental ways in the long run, and I don't say it's desirable at this point in our development, nor even in ME's timeline. Maybe never, I wouldn't know. But it is a possible development, and that it might make non-issues of some aspects of our biology doesn't make it undesirable. In fictional universes, I'd only object to it if the author introduced separation of sex and reproduction, but blithely assumed everything else stays the same. It would also be hard to mentally get into protagonists from a society where this has been the norm for a long time, but that's the challenge of SF.

Personally, something like that would lead me to question the essence of what makes us human, and the issue of technological advancements making organic biology non-mandatory. It's somewhat similar to our earlier argument of biological vs technological augmentation and I don't really want to discuss that particular issue (again).

It's definitely an interesting premise and worth exploring, but I'm not sure I like the implications on a large scale.

And yes please, no more high-heels!

[Jebel Krong]

@ elyvern, well morals and pragmatism are definitely learned traits, so i'm pretty sure she would have learned them growing up - particularly for dynastic reasons - reflected in a certain callousness particularly regarding the control chip issue, as much as she sees herself as a tool, she also views at least most others in the same light, at least to start with (again the caveat that she changes a lot during the course of me2). her father wanted a dynasty, he's not concerned with 'people' or 'individuality' - he wants to enshrine himself at the expense of others.

[Jebel Krong]

we are human as long as we classify ourselves as such - biological changes happen all the time (gardual increases in height for the last 400 years or so) - phenotype changing the genotype and vice-versa, the advent of technological change is only another aspect of this, and it's not something to be feared (although as always there is the potential for misuse, but it's not like evolution is a steady stream of only improvements), it's to be embraced.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...
The would really depend on what kind of experiments we're talking about when you mention experimentation on live subjects. Would they be volunteers? Would it be fatal? If so, would the fatality be guaranteed or is there a chance of survival? How high is this chance? How painful would it be?

Miranda executing Wilson was done quickly and cleanly. Wilson literally just looks at her and she shoots him in the chest. Implanting Shepard with a control chip would be done while Shepard was still knocked out. Shepard likely wouldn't even be aware that it's there. Making a Reaper smoothie out of someone is obviously in a separate league. You can actually see the terror in Kelly's (or the colonist) eyes and hear her screams. I'd argue that goes even beyond any horrors Miranda would be willing to inflict through normal means.

Miranda can probably rationalize a lot, give the kind of work she does and who she works for, but I'm sure there are areas even she won't stray into.

I agree with you. What you mention are probably the lines she wouldn't cross. I'd even go so far as to say that she may have found it easy to implant Shepard with a chip while he's still comatose on the operation table because it would be easy to disassociate a medical subject from a real living human being. But when she starts getting close to him even in a professional capacity, she would start feeling conflicted about what she has done.

The thing is we must probably recognise that Bioware intends for her to change over the course of the game, and not just in terms of being more approachable or personable. If you play a paragon player (or even renegade to a lesser extent), her moral compass does make a shift towards paragon. We can even argue that there is a definite emotional factor that starts to influence her actions too, no matter how badly-executed some of those instances are. If she plays a substantial role in ME3, there is no reason that think those changes wouldn't continue. (hence my fear that it will simply go too far and too much and make her "un-Miranda") . But at the moment, her characterisation is in a state of flux and I'm beginning to wonder if we have to make distinctions of what pre-ME2 and post-ME2 Miranda would do.

[Jebel Krong]

i really hope they don't make her too paragon - she's a good and realistic mix, even at the end of me2, so if they keep that 'edge' she remains a great fit for my renegade sheps.

[Mox Ruuga]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Except for the high heels. Is there agreement on another entry in the wishlist: no high heels for the on-mission outift.

Yes.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Except for the high heels. Is there agreement on another entry in the wishlist: no high heels for the on-mission outift.

The only issue for me is, as Yankee pointed out, Miranda's wearing at least 3-inch heels. I doubt Bioware would bother creating two skeletons for her to account for the height difference. Miranda would end up the same height all the time yet be wearing a 3-inch heel on the ship and no heels off the ship. It probably wouldn't bother most people, but I'd be thinking about it all the time.

I think there's something wrong with me that I notice these things.