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[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Okay. So...how exactly is Miri a femme fatale? Because I never saw her that way.FF always at least at first are trying to use their relationship with the Hero to their advantage. I don't see her do any of that. She does flaunt her body (I blame BW for this) but not once does she hit on Shep without it being initated.

Okay, here we go! Haha

Alright... the first major point that we didn't get to in the other thread really was that Femme Fatale's do not necessarily have to inhabit their role intentionally.

Many of the best Femme Fatales in cinema and literary history have been unwilling tools that were being used by someone else to destroy the hero.

She definitely does not intentionally ensnare Shepard, but it still happens (in the case where they hook up of course). Her body was designed by her father for the purpose. And if she truly wished to limit it's effects she would wear something to hide her figure, not to accentuate it. I choose to attribute her clothing to the character.

She also exhibits some of the major physical markers of the Femme Fatale. The full lips, the flowing dark hair, the large eyes, the sultry walk, the curvy figure... all of these things are common physical aspects of any given Femme Fatale.

The use of the camera throughout her conversational bits also suggests as much. Which in the case of the male Shepard, which is the only case where the Femme Fatale concept can apply, expresses more of an emotional perspective than anything else. It makes it clear to the player that her body and sex appeal are incredibly evident. And if the player notices it this much it can be assumed that the character also notices it.

And, finally, the entrapment...

Miranda's love affair with the Paragon Shepard could only end badly.

The Illusive Man is a master manipulator and has had Miranda in his pocket for years. In the case of split loyalties he can still tug on her leash by way of her family, who she cares about deeply and will go to any lengths to protect. He is perhaps too smart to threaten them directly to get her to jump, but he is sure to know how to twist the knife just enough to make her bleed a little. As such he retains no small measure of influence on her.

This would be the tragic ending that potentially traps and destroys the heroic figure. He can still escape it... the hero usually escapes the Femme Fatale's traps... but she is still a Femme Fatale.

Alright... that is all I can think of right now.

[Ryzaki]

[quote]ShrinkingFish wrote...

Okay, here we go! Haha

Alright... the first major point that we didn't get to in the other thread really was that Femme Fatale's do not necessarily have to inhabit their role intentionally.

Many of the best Femme Fatales in cinema and literary history have been unwilling tools that were being used by someone else to destroy the hero.[/quote]

So...this whole arguement hinges on Shep being a male...and initating a romance with Miri? (because that's how the relationship starts). So...there's a great deal of people she might not even do that with (including my Shep. I can't do her romance because of the cheese).

[Quote[She definitely does not intentionally ensnare Shepard, but it still happens (in the case where they hook up of course). Her body was designed by her father for the purpose. And if she truly wished to limit it's effects she would wear something to hide her figure, not to accentuate it. I choose to attribute her clothing to the character.[/quote]

Yeah. The seemingly rare case (There are 2 other LIs and another gender Shep can be). The clothing...I'm not too sure about. She claims it gives her an edge but the only thing I've seen is people mocking her for it and everyone else ignoring it. Some scenes of her charming a store owner or anyone really would've gone a long way to making that more believeable.

[quote]She also exhibits some of the major physical markers of the Femme Fatale. The full lips, the flowing dark hair, the large eyes, the sultry walk, the curvy figure... all of these things are common physical aspects of any given Femme Fatale.[/quote]

Or...you know an attractive female.

[quote]The use of the camera throughout her conversational bits also suggests as much. Which in the case of the male Shepard, which is the only case where the Femme Fatale concept can apply, expresses more of an emotional perspective than anything else. It makes it clear to the player that her body and sex appeal are incredibly evident. And if the player notices it this much it can be assumed that the character also notices it.[/quote]

Yet...those cameras are still there with female players. Sure her body and sex appeal are evident but that's practically saying any attractive woman is a femme fatale. Which is not true. Is Samara a Femme Fatale? The cameras love to caress her as well. (Heck they do the same to *gags* Jacob) [the gagging is due to it being Jacob...not his gender...but Jacob.]

[Quote]
And, finally, the entrapment...

Miranda's love affair with the Paragon Shepard could only end badly.

The Illusive Man is a master manipulator and has had Miranda in his pocket for years. In the case of split loyalties he can still tug on her leash by way of her family, who she cares about deeply and will go to any lengths to protect. He is perhaps too smart to threaten them directly to get her to jump, but he is sure to know how to twist the knife just enough to make her bleed a little. As such he retains no small measure of influence on her.

This would be the tragic ending that potentially traps and destroys the heroic figure. He can still escape it... the hero usually escapes the Femme Fatale's traps... but she is still a Femme Fatale.

Alright... that is all I can think of right now.
[/quote]

...You forget the Paragon shep can still keep the base right?  You mean her love affair with a Shep that "betrayed" Tim can only end badly.

TIM isn't god. And i'm fairly certain Miranda has enough dirt on him to make him reconsider "twisting that knife" . Miranda isn't some weak willed woman who'll fall to her knees the moment her family is threatend. She's more liable to shoot TIM in the knee caps.

Yeah...that all hinges on Miranda only being able to use her femine wiles. She however doesn't. She's intelligent, strong and capable. The whole blackmail thing is simply unbelievable to me. I'm not saying TIM couldn't do it. But it'll blow up in his face almost as much as resurrecting Paragon (Alien lover) Shep for his "human domiance in the galaxy!" schemes.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:16 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Dude. Miri thread. Go. Now.

Femme Fatales are however based on
the whole seducing men thing. Miri does not do that! Also...since when
was a femme fatale not fully aware of her actions? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]
If she's being used she isn't a femme fatale. She's just a damsel in
distress. (Yes I know negative connations doesn't make them any less
true. i'm not saying she's defenseless but in such a situation...). If
she's being forced to seduce the pc...she's romance either a male or
female shepard. Just sayin'.

I brought up Shep's gender because
Miri's dialogue only changes during the romance. She treats a female and
male character exactly. the. same. She's not trying to seduce or trick
you.

Transplanted this....

Okay... so. Femme Fatales and Damsels in Distess are not mutually exclusive. They can be one and the same. Some of my favorite Femme Fatales have been both.

And of course much of the theory does not apply directly to a female Shepard, but the character remains the same. The themes just have to be tweaked so that Femm Shep is not the target but just a witness to her sensuality.

And I did not mean to imply she is being forced to seduce Shepard. Just that it occurs... in the case of romancing her. Or that she intends to seduce Shepard. Just that it is clear, by her dress and behavior, that she uses her body as a weapon. Again, if she didn't want her genetically modified looks to effect the people around her then she could very easily hide them.

The Femme Fatale is simply a woman who's seductive appearace or looks or attitude serve to ensnare the hero and lead him to ruin.

Obviously Miranda isn't the Femme Fatale for Femm Shep. But she is still that character, nost notably to Jacob, who has a romantic history with Miranda that ended poorly, but that is in the past.

Also, as far as referances to the way Miranda dresses. Some of the side dialogue between crew members mentions her outfit as overtly sexual.

[Ryzaki]

How was she a Femme Fatal because her and Jacob relationship went bad?

They broke up because and I quote "She required a better man than I."

People can break up because they don't mesh well. Doesn't mean she goes around seducing all the powerful men she meets. Jacob while somewhat hung over her didn't fight over her, go into any dangerous situations because of her (or did he didn't play Galaxy) or nearly get himself killed defending her over something she started.

And how pray tell was Jacob "lead to ruin" from what I can see from the priiiize. He's just fine. If sprouting cheesy porno lines...maybe he got it from Miranda.

Yeah they do. Gah. I hate that outfit to the bottom of my soul. It's ridiculous. (and no one mentions Jacob's outfit suspiciously enough. Both of those idiots should be looking like swiss cheese after certain firefights.)

I love Miri...but her battle wear leaves a lot to be desired.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:25 .

[ShrinkingFish]

[quote]
[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]ShrinkingFish wrote...

Okay, here we go! Haha

Alright... the first major point that we didn't get to in the other thread really was that Femme Fatale's do not necessarily have to inhabit their role intentionally.

Many of the best Femme Fatales in cinema and literary history have been unwilling tools that were being used by someone else to destroy the hero.[/quote]

So...this whole arguement hinges on Shep being a male...and initating a romance with Miri? (because that's how the relationship starts). So...there's a great deal of people she might not even do that with (including my Shep. I can't do her romance because of the cheese).

[Quote[She definitely does not intentionally ensnare Shepard, but it still happens (in the case where they hook up of course). Her body was designed by her father for the purpose. And if she truly wished to limit it's effects she would wear something to hide her figure, not to accentuate it. I choose to attribute her clothing to the character.[/quote]

Yeah. The seemingly rare case (There are 2 other LIs and another gender Shep can be). The clothing...I'm not too sure about. She claims it gives her an edge but the only thing I've seen is people mocking her for it and everyone else ignoring it. Some scenes of her charming a store owner or anyone really would've gone a long way to making that more believeable.

[quote]She also exhibits some of the major physical markers of the Femme Fatale. The full lips, the flowing dark hair, the large eyes, the sultry walk, the curvy figure... all of these things are common physical aspects of any given Femme Fatale.[/quote]

Or...you know an attractive female.

[quote]The use of the camera throughout her conversational bits also suggests as much. Which in the case of the male Shepard, which is the only case where the Femme Fatale concept can apply, expresses more of an emotional perspective than anything else. It makes it clear to the player that her body and sex appeal are incredibly evident. And if the player notices it this much it can be assumed that the character also notices it.[/quote]

Yet...those cameras are still there with female players. Sure her body and sex appeal are evident but that's practically saying any attractive woman is a femme fatale. Which is not true. Is Samara a Femme Fatale? The cameras love to caress her as well. (Heck they do the same to *gags* Jacob) [the gagging is due to it being Jacob...not his gender...but Jacob.]

[Quote]
And, finally, the entrapment...

Miranda's love affair with the Paragon Shepard could only end badly.

The Illusive Man is a master manipulator and has had Miranda in his pocket for years. In the case of split loyalties he can still tug on her leash by way of her family, who she cares about deeply and will go to any lengths to protect. He is perhaps too smart to threaten them directly to get her to jump, but he is sure to know how to twist the knife just enough to make her bleed a little. As such he retains no small measure of influence on her.

This would be the tragic ending that potentially traps and destroys the heroic figure. He can still escape it... the hero usually escapes the Femme Fatale's traps... but she is still a Femme Fatale.

Alright... that is all I can think of right now.
[/quote]

...You forget the Paragon shep can still keep the base right?  You mean her love affair with a Shep that "betrayed" Tim can only end badly.

TIM isn't god. And i'm fairly certain Miranda has enough dirt on him to make him reconsider "twisting that knife" . Miranda isn't some weak willed woman who'll fall to her knees the moment her family is threatend. She's more liable to shoot TIM in the knee caps.

Yeah...that all hinges on Miranda only being able to use her femine wiles. She however doesn't. She's intelligent, strong and capable. The whole blackmail thing is simply unbelievable to me. I'm not saying TIM couldn't do it. But it'll blow up in his face almost as much as resurrecting Paragon (Alien lover) Shep for his "human domiance in the galaxy!" schemes.

[/quote]
[/quote]

By paragon Shepard I meant the one that makes the Paragon choice in the end.

And I think I explained the appication of the Femme Fatale and the corresponding themes in my second post... or somewhere... but I know I've addressed them.... in relation to the Femm Shep.

And a Femme Fatale is not a limited character. But can be a very in depth and complex one. Which Miranda is.

Also, I believe that in your assumptions about how twisting the knife would turn out, you underestimate the Illusive Man and Miranda. Plus. I already explained that the "hero" can escape the trap of the Femme Fatale and usually does. Thus Miranda and Shepard overthrowing the Illusive Man together and saving her sister and them living happily ever after would be an appropriate ending for the themes.

On a related note... how many detective novels have you read / detective movies have you seen? I suddenly realized that much of the confusion may stem from a lack of previous exposure to the media and variety of forms the Femme Fatale can take...

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:31 .

[Ryzaki]

I'm not overly fond of detective novels. (Too male dominated for my taste. I prefer my stories to have female leads).

Everytime I've seen a female fatale she's either a b**** or she's an DID that nearly gets the Hero killed while I'm sitting there wondering what he sees in her other than her chest.

That said I was bored enough to look it up on tv tropes. ...While Miranda is listed the description they gave doesn't fit her at all and the only reason she's there is because BW said she was one.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:29 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

How was she a Femme Fatal because her and Jacob relationship went bad?

They broke up because and I quote "She required a better man than I."

People can break up because they don't mesh well. Doesn't mean she goes around seducing all the powerful men she meets. Jacob while somewhat hung over her didn't fight over her, go into any dangerous situations because of her (or did he didn't play Galaxy) or nearly get himself killed defending her over something she started.

And how pray tell was Jacob "lead to ruin" from what I can see from the priiiize. He's just fine. If sprouting cheesy porno lines...maybe he got it from Miranda.

Yeah they do. Gah. I hate that outfit to the bottom of my soul. It's ridiculous. (and no one mentions Jacob's outfit suspiciously enough. Both of those idiots should be looking like swiss cheese after certain firefights.)

Eh, that quote from him always sounded to me like a judgement call. And I meant that mostly because they meshed due to her seductive sensuality... and broke up because they were incompatible or whatever. There is actually cannon to do with that entire relationship (Galaxy) but I don't know it so we probably shouldn't bother using it as an example. I just meant to point out that this is the case as per ME2 evidence. Not that she was his Femme Fatale, just that she seduced Jacob like she seduced Shepard... by accident.

And I don't bother complaining about character's outfits. Garrus caught a rocket with his face once and was fine. Those shields are apparently baller.

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm not overly fond of detective novels. (Too male dominated for my taste. I prefer my stories to have female leads).

Everytime I've seen a female fatale she's either a b**** or she's an DID that nearly gets the Hero killed while I'm sitting there wondering what he sees in her other than her chest.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense then.

Yeah, all the major Femme Fatales exist in Detective stories. And you're right, they are definitely very masculine novels. But yeah, all the precedents for Miranda's Femme Fatale status exist in these types of stories. As you don't know these stories then my claims would be coming out of nowhere. I now understand why you take issue with them.

[Ryzaki]

Oh god Garrus' armor! XD

And why is his loyalty armor still busted up! O_o It's just...gah! It's like he painted over it or something!

Why is it when a woman appeals to a man she's "seduced him" yet a man will "attract" a woman. What's with that? They were attracted to each other. Jacob wasn't tricked into being with her.

And I'm read the TVTropes page...and Miri really doesn't fit at all except for the Devs claiming she's one.

Any morally ambiguity went out the window with the RB incidient.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:34 .

[Collider]

I think it was Casey or some other PR person who called Miranda a femme fatale or something similar. That Miranda uses sex to get what she wants. That's not really how it is in game, unless you count the outfit.

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...


That said I was bored enough to look it up on tv tropes. ...While Miranda is listed the description they gave doesn't fit her at all and the only reason she's there is because BW said she was one.

Would you mind linking the sight to me? I can probably explain how they got it wrong =P

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh god Garrus' armor! XD

And why is his loyalty armor still busted up! O_o It's just...gah! It's like he painted over it or something!

Why is it when a woman appeals to a man she's "seduced him" yet a man will "attract" a woman. What's with that? They were attracted to each other. Jacob wasn't tricked into being with her.

Yeah, it is a double standard and an unfortunate one.

And I didn't mean Jacob was tricked. Just that he was attracted to her due to her sensuality and looks. Not because of who she was. She was likely attracted to him for the same reasons... hence why they ended poorly.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:36 .

[Ryzaki]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


That said I was bored enough to look it up on tv tropes. ...While Miranda is listed the description they gave doesn't fit her at all and the only reason she's there is because BW said she was one.

Would you mind linking the sight to me? I can probably explain how they got it wrong =P

http://tvtropes.org/...ain/FemmeFatale

It's pretty similar to the wiki page.

Yeah. I can see Jacob and her ending badly if they got together so quickly.

....My poor Shep. This is the second game he'd have been single because none of his crew members that he wants wants him. D: Poor fellow.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:36 .

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

I think it was Casey or some other PR person who called Miranda a femme fatale or something similar. That Miranda uses sex to get what she wants. That's not really how it is in game, unless you count the outfit.

That's my whole beef with the thing. Other than that outfit Miranda is nothing like that. She doesn't flirt with Shep, she doesn't flirt with anyone, she's all business. She might as well be your boss wearing a really tight outfit. Sure you can stare at her chest but she'll probably give you a withering look until you run away. She's not cold as ice but she's not overly warm and friendly either. She's very professional. (Another thing I hate about her outfit. Her whole character is so charsmatic and professional that the outfit just looks trashy).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:39 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


That said I was bored enough to look it up on tv tropes. ...While Miranda is listed the description they gave doesn't fit her at all and the only reason she's there is because BW said she was one.

Would you mind linking the sight to me? I can probably explain how they got it wrong =P

http://tvtropes.org/...ain/FemmeFatale

It's pretty similar to the wiki page.

Yeah. I can see Jacob and her ending badly if they got together so quickly.

....My poor Shep. This is the second game he'd have been single because none of his crew members that he wants wants him. D: Poor fellow.

Okay. I took a look at that page. And you're right. Miranda definitely isn't that character.

However. That site got it wrong just because it was WAY too specific. Like they were giving an example and not actually defining the archetype.

Here's the actual definition of the Femme Fatale:

 A mysterious and seductive woman
whose charms ensnare her lovers in bonds of irresistible desire, often
leading them into compromising, dangerous, and deadly situations.

That is pretty much it. The base line. Any female character who does that is a Femme Fatale. And Miranda exhibits all these traits.

[Ryzaki]

...How is she mysterious? And how is she leading to an irresistible desire? And what compromising dangerous and deadly situations does she lead Shep too?

Sure she has the *potential* to do all of that but so does Tali. ...and Jack to be frank.

Kind of reminds me of the "role playing game is a game where you play a role."

...Well....that's rather vague. That covers about 90% of games in existance.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:43 .

[Collider]

That is pretty much it. The base line. Any female character who does that is a Femme Fatale. And Miranda exhibits all these traits.

How so? Miranda's not trying to seduce anyone in the game. She's not mysterious either. I mean you get on the Normandy and she'll tell you her lifestory like it's nothing. Not to mention she isn't leading anyone into dangerous situations with her looks.

Modifié par Collider, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:42 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

I think it was Casey or some other PR person who called Miranda a femme fatale or something similar. That Miranda uses sex to get what she wants. That's not really how it is in game, unless you count the outfit.

That's my whole beef with the thing. Other than that outfit Miranda is nothing like that. She doesn't flirt with Shep, she doesn't flirt with anyone, she's all business. She might as well be your boss wearing a really tight outfit. Sure you can stare at her chest but she'll probably give you a withering look until you run away. She's not cold as ice but she's not overly warm and friendly either. She's very professional. (Another thing I hate about her outfit. Her whole character is so charsmatic and professional that the outfit just looks trashy).

I also took her outfit to represent the character. Choosing to believe that she specifically chose to wear those cloths. Not that a designer forced her into them against her will.

If she didn't want her curves to effect the people around her. She would hide them.

Honestly, in every instance, her outfit gives her an advantage.

It reduces many men to drooling maleable puddles, and it makes others believe he is trashy, and therefore they underestimate her. Either way, she is using her body as a weapon.

[Ryzaki]

Or you know it could be a devs decision. There's always that.

And it never actually does anything in game. AT all. She says what it does but...it never does that. There is absolutely no advantage in the game to her wearing that outfit. No male attackers are stunned/stop and one asari LOLs before attacking you anyways. And the Collectors just don't give a damn. TIM doesn't give a damn. Her male co-workers just go "she's hot." while the females kind of sigh. So there's no advantage there either (unless having people gossip about you instead of doing their jobs is an advantage). It's not like we see her getting information from a male target by charming him. She's more liable to threaten him with her biotics instead.

So she'd be better off walking around in normal armor for all the good it does her during the suicide mission.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:48 .

[Collider]

The outfit is horrifically ugly and doesn't match Miranda at all.

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

...How is she mysterious? And how is she leading to an irresistible desire? And what compromising dangerous and deadly situations does she lead Shep too?

Sure she has the *potential* to do all of that but so does Tali. ...and Jack to be frank.

Kind of reminds me of the "role playing game is a game where you play a role."

...Well....that's rather vague. That covers about 90% of games in existance.

She begins as being mysterious. She is an unknown quantity. A mystery to be unraveled. She leads to irresistible desire in the actual romance with Shepard. They are drawn to eachother to the point where they cannot resist. And the compromising situation is that Miranda will be split between her loyalty to Cerberus and her loyalty to Shepard, and if the Illusive Man plays it right, he could ensnare Shepard in the web.

All the elements are there. I mean, as I man playing a male Shepard, I saw Miranda as a honey trap from minute one. And even though I didn't want to... I avoided the romance with her because I knew where it would lead.

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Or you know it could be a devs decision. There's always that.

And it never actually does anything in game. AT all. She says what it does but...it never does that. There is absolutely no advantage in the game to her wearing that outfit. No male attackers are stunned/stop and one asari LOLs before attacking you anyways. And the Collectors just don't give a damn.

So she'd be better off walking around in normal armor for all the good it does her during the suicide mission.

Obviously sexuality does not apply in a gunfight...

I guess I'm just viewing the characters as complete individuals that operate and exist in a world that is not confined by the limits of the game.

Like the game is a brief window into a much larger world.

[ShrinkingFish]

Collider wrote...

The outfit is horrifically ugly and doesn't match Miranda at all.

I disagree on both counts.

I love the outfit and think it matches the character perfectly...

[Collider]

edit

Modifié par Collider, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:50 .

[Ryzaki]

She's mysterious for all of five minutes. Seriously she starts telling you all about her the second you get on the Normandy. She doesn't hide her past. Irresistible desire? Shep can break up with her for any time! I wonder if he can be as much as a douche about it as he can with Jack? and there is no conflict of loyalty to Shep at the end of the game because she tells TIM to screw off. Maybe, maybe it might be out of concern for Oriana. But a disloyal Miranda is liable to be a dead Miranda (particualary if she had the "I resign" convo). And if not disloyal what reason does she have for trusting TIM the guy who has shown time and time again he sees her only as a tool over Shep who has shown time and time again he sees her as a person? 

Sure TIM can threaten Oriana. But once again, neither Oriana nor Miaranda are liable to fall to their knees in despiar. Both girls are survivors and fighters and TIM trying to pull something like that is liable to bite him in the ass.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 octobre 2010 - 09:53 .