15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Changed the OP.

Added the following fanfic:
"Recruitment Mission: Kaidan vs. Miranda" by Dinah Lance
"Friendly Rivals: Liara and Miranda" by Dinah Lance
"Three Steps Forward" by Thessilian

@ShrinkingFish:
I get it you have a different opinion than everyone else here (me included - see below), but it's based on a lot of unfounded assumptions. Within ME2, Miranda does not act as femme fatale. To support your claim, you have to assume that the whole of her romance is an act on her part. While that is possible, it's not at all plausible that Bioware would do that, and there is not a single piece of evidence in the game or elsewhere in the published material that supports that claim, if you discount early marketing. So there's no reason at all for you to act as if we all can't see the obvious.

This is almost certainly what happened:

fongiel24 wrote...

Collider wrote...
It seems to me that they intended Miranda to be a femme fatale sometime in development, but that those ideas didn't really come to fruition. So we only have remnants, like her outfit.

Yeah, I've got to agree with this. Miranda looks like a femme fatale but doesn't seem to be written like one. Despite having gorgeous looks (some people don't think so, but canonically she's supposed to be gorgeous) and a perfect body, all put on display with a catsuit that hides nothing, Miranda never really takes advantage of her looks by attempting to seduce anyone. She acts exactly in the same way someone with her skills but without her looks would act.

She was billed as a femme fatale, but this was just another case of game marketing not matching the game itself.

Ryzaki, ShrinkingFish:
For an extended discussion of Jack, go to her thread and take it up with her fanbase. Contuing this here for more than two pages gets OT.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:15 .

[Jebel Krong]

i would have said ryzaki was the one trolling...

[Ryzaki]

Jebel Krong wrote...

i would have said ryzaki was the one trolling...

Really? 

Anyways: Any good Miranda and Shepard (either gender) friendship fics? 

[ShrinkingFish]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Changed the OP.

Added the following fanfic:
"Recruitment Mission: Kaidan vs. Miranda" by Dinah Lance
"Friendly Rivals: Liara and Miranda" by Dinah Lance
"Three Steps Forward" by Thessilian

@ShrinkingFish:
Stop trolling. I get it you have a different opinion than everyone else here (me included - see below), but it's based on a lot of unfounded assumptions. Within ME2, Miranda does not act as femme fatale. To support your claim, you have to assume that the whole of her romance is an act on her part. While that is possible, it's not at all plausible that Bioware would do that, and there is not a single piece of evidence in the game or elsewhere in the published material that supports that claim, if you discount early marketing. So there's no reason at all for you to act as if we all can't see the obvious.

This is almost certainly what happened:

fongiel24 wrote...

Collider wrote...
It seems to me that they intended Miranda to be a femme fatale sometime in development, but that those ideas didn't really come to fruition. So we only have remnants, like her outfit.

Yeah, I've got to agree with this. Miranda looks like a femme fatale but doesn't seem to be written like one. Despite having gorgeous looks (some people don't think so, but canonically she's supposed to be gorgeous) and a perfect body, all put on display with a catsuit that hides nothing, Miranda never really takes advantage of her looks by attempting to seduce anyone. She acts exactly in the same way someone with her skills but without her looks would act.

She was billed as a femme fatale, but this was just another case of game marketing not matching the game itself.

BTW:
For an extended discussion of Jack, go to her thread and take it up with her fanbase. Contuing this here for more than two pages gets OT.

Omg...

Femme Fatales do not need to intentionally seduce anyone in order to be a Femme Fatale...

It is a very common misconception of the entire concept as it has been bastardized over time. The Femme Fatale is a much more complex character than anyone here is apparently capable of understanding.

And I am not trolling. I am simply getting too entrenched in this stupid argument for my own good. I hate it when people dismiss perfectly reasonable arguments and I get too invested in my claims.

Point is, there obviously must be something that makes Miranda a Femme Fatale, because I came to that conclusion about her knowing absolutely nothing about the early marketing techniques and without any knowledge of the character outside my play through of Mass Effect 2.

The character screamed Femme Fatale to me. I just saw the early marketing crap recently and marked it as vindication of my theory.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:14 .

[GodWood]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Jack is by no means a mentally stable person but she is not a psychopath.

What about her makes her not a psychopath?

Take it to the Jack thread.

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i would have said ryzaki was the one trolling...

Really? 

Anyways: Any good Miranda and Shepard (either gender) friendship fics? 

Yeah. Trolling is very subjective most of the time... I actually appologize for accusing you of it. I realize that you are not a troll. I just got too wrapped up in the argument and some of youe questions were just incredibly insulting.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@ShrinkingFish:
Stop trolling. I get it you have a different opinion than everyone else here (me included - see below), but it's based on a lot of unfounded assumptions. Within ME2, Miranda does not act as femme fatale. To support your claim, you have to assume that the whole of her romance is an act on her part. While that is possible, it's not at all plausible that Bioware would do that, and there is not a single piece of evidence in the game or elsewhere in the published material that supports that claim, if you discount early marketing. So there's no reason at all for you to act as if we all can't see the obvious.

I don't think anybody's deliberately trolling here, but I do think that after about two pages of arguing a point back and forth, both sides should probably just agree to disagree and drop it. Take a deep breath, and let it go. Also I really, really detest pyramid quotes.

@ Ieldra - I'm really looking forward to reading your ficathon entry (since I think it was written for my prompt ) but I refuse to begin reading until you complete it . So please, if you guys are going to talk about Ieldra's fic, post spoiler warnings so I know to avert my eyes.

[ShrinkingFish]

GodWood wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Jack is by no means a mentally stable person but she is not a psychopath.

What about her makes her not a psychopath?

Take it to the Jack thread.

You're the one who brought it up.

I really don't care. I'm here to talk about Miranda.

[Ryzaki]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i would have said ryzaki was the one trolling...

Really? 

Anyways: Any good Miranda and Shepard (either gender) friendship fics? 

Yeah. Trolling is very subjective most of the time... I actually appologize for accusing you of it. I realize that you are not a troll. I just got too wrapped up in the argument and some of youe questions were just incredibly insulting.

I apologize as well. ...I was too wrapped up in the arguement.

...So about that friendship fic...

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i would have said ryzaki was the one trolling...

Really? 

Anyways: Any good Miranda and Shepard (either gender) friendship fics? 

Yeah. Trolling is very subjective most of the time... I actually appologize for accusing you of it. I realize that you are not a troll. I just got too wrapped up in the argument and some of youe questions were just incredibly insulting.

I apologize as well. ...I was too wrapped up in the arguement.

...So about that friendship fic...

lol, glad we could end this civily.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:53 .

[Jebel Krong]

heh. femme fatale is probably supposed to be to do with the "operative" title (spies have often been depicted as such, especially beautiful women ones) - whether she is one or not is moot at this point as not only does she change quite a bit during me2, game design is also a very fluid process at best, so the original aims/designs the character was conceived under probably changed quite a bit during development. she certainly isn't a classic "femme fatale" as you see in other media, but she certainly knows and acknowledges the effect her looks (for example) have on people.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:33 .

[Ieldra]

ShrinkingFish wrote...
Femme Fatales do not need to intentionally seduce anyone in order to be a Femme Fatale...

Where do you get your definition from? Last I heard, the femme fatale has a hidden agenda she uses her charms to achieve, thereby putting her "victim" into compromising situations. If you stretch the Wikipedia definition to include women who are unintentionally "fatal" - some figures from classical mythology might fit the pattern - then you have to judge how a woman fits the definition by result. Within ME2, we have no outcome that suggests Miranda acts as a femme fatale.

Having said that, Miranda's history suggests she may have acted as a femme fatale while working for Cerberus, but there is no indication she is that with regard to Shepard.

It is a very common misconception of the entire concept as it has been bastardized over time. The Femme Fatale is a much more complex character than anyone here is apparently capable of understanding.

You're coming across as a troll if you assert that everyone who doesn't agree with you is incapable of understanding without any evidence to support your claim.

Point is, there obviously must be something that makes Miranda a Femme Fatale, because I came to that conclusion about her knowing absolutely nothing about the early marketing techniques and without any knowledge of the character outside my play through of Mass Effect 2.

We are all wrong because you made an intuitive leap when you played ME2 first? Now that's a convincing argument...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:34 .

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
@ Ieldra - I'm really looking forward to reading your ficathon entry (since I think it was written for my prompt ) but I refuse to begin reading until you complete it . So please, if you guys are going to talk about Ieldra's fic, post spoiler warnings so I know to avert my eyes.

You have a nice way of saying "hurry up!", LOL!

[Ieldra]

Regarding the Miranda/Shepard friendship fic:



I'm unaware of any specific one. Those linked in the OP either have a romance between them or nothing at all. Likely you'd need to browse fanfiction.net for candidates.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Regarding the Miranda/Shepard friendship fic:

I'm unaware of any specific one. Those linked in the OP either have a romance between them or nothing at all. Likely you'd need to browse fanfiction.net for candidates.

Egads! D:

It shall be a long day.

Well thanks for telling me! At least I didn't blow several hours trying to read the fics in the OP.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You have a nice way of saying "hurry up!", LOL!

Was I that obvious? My evil plan was to prevent anyone from discussing your fic until you finished . Of course my plan kinda falls apart if people just tag their posts with **Spoiler Alert**... or if they just ignore me. Damn it! I knew this plan needed more finetuning...

[ShrinkingFish]

Ieldra2 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...
Femme Fatales do not need to intentionally seduce anyone in order to be a Femme Fatale...

Where do you get your definition from? Last I heard, the femme fatale has a hidden agenda she uses her charms to achieve, thereby putting her "victim" into compromising situations. If you stretch the Wikipedia definition to include women who are unintentionally "fatal" - some figures from classical mythology might fit the pattern - then you have to judge how a woman fits the definition by result. Within ME2, we have no outcome that suggests Miranda acts as a femme fatale.

Having said that, Miranda's history suggests she may have acted as a femme fatale while working for Cerberus, but there is no indication she is that with regard to Shepard.

It is a very common misconception of the entire concept as it has been bastardized over time. The Femme Fatale is a much more complex character than anyone here is apparently capable of understanding.

You're coming across as a troll if you assert that everyone who doesn't agree with you is incapable of understanding without any evidence to support your claim.

Point is, there obviously must be something that makes Miranda a Femme Fatale, because I came to that conclusion about her knowing absolutely nothing about the early marketing techniques and without any knowledge of the character outside my play through of Mass Effect 2.

We are all wrong because you made an intuitive leap when you played ME2 first? Now that's a convincing argument...

Yes... let us extend that definition to encompass all forms the Femme Fatale can take. Please. It is much more comprehensive than many would imagine it to be. The Femme Fatale can take many many forms. It only requires three elements which Miranda encompasses fully.

Mysterious: Which she is. She's a nobody to you, then a voice, then a murderer, then the one holding your leash, then she lies to you about her "twin" sister, then etc. etc. etc. You never know if what she says is absolutely true.

Sensual and Attractive: Everyone comments of her body and looks (even her as they were designed to "give [her] an edge"). She accentuates them with form fitting clothing. And the camera work emphasises her sexuality.

And she leads the lover into danger: Miranda loves Shepard, Shepard destroys the base and quits Cerberus, Miranda still loves Shepard and still loves her sister, Cerberus controls her sister's well being. That doesn't scream danger to you? And that is all within ME2.

We don't see the outcome of Miranda's romance as it is reserved for ME3. And you don't see any possibility of it becoming a huge problem? None at all? No split allegiences? No conflicting loves? The end of ME2 is just a happily ever after for her and Shepard?

You're right. It doesn't happen within ME2. But ME2 isn't the ending. It is just the middle chapter. I'm putting forth why Miranda fits the bill of the Femme Fatale up to the great fall. The lack of the ending seems to be a huge handicap for anyone who cannot even entertain the idea and that displays a lack of imagination.

But, we wont know for sure if she is a Femme Fatale until we play the last installment of the trilogy. So we'll see who is right then, one way or another.

Point is there are clear and evident evidences that exist within the character in ME2. Those who do not see them are choosing to ignore them. I listed just about all of them in previous posts and reiterated the main points here and all anyone has done to refute the claims is said "Nuh uh...". I have presented solid, in game evidence, not speculation or assumption, except for my own prediction of the possible fall that may or may not be coming.

I don't appreciate the tone people are taking with me. As I am being attacked I am getting defensive. When I get defensive my speech becomes more aggressive. You came into this discussion on a high horse of false authority and accused me of trolling. Of course I am going to respond aggressively. What? You expect me to roll over or something?

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 27 octobre 2010 - 11:54 .

[Mondo47]

Hey, driveby hi from the Jack thread

Having seen this little "femme fatale" thing, I just thought I'd say that I was always under the impression that it just meant dangerous woman. Over the years it's become a very ambiguous and nebulous term that is culturally hotwired into this very Bondian image of a woman that uses her sexuality as a weapon; a pitbull posing as a lapdog. Granted, the image goes back a lot further than that, and women have used looks and charm over brawn for centuries to equalise the so-called "gender arms race," but it's the femme fatale born out of pulp fiction we tend to think of first when that term gets tossed out; the female spy, the gangster's moll, the conniving adulteress, the blowsy jazz singer, so on and so forth. Because of that it's a very loaded term.

Taken literally (as in "dangerous woman") I'd say sure, Miranda could be a femme fatale. By that argument though, so could Jack, so could Tali, so could Aria, so could Ashley, so could pretty much everyone but Kelly "Fishfeeder" Chambers! In the other, more culturally-loaded sense, it gets harder to apply to Miri. Sure, she dresses in a fashion that is pretty standard of a Bondian femme fatal. She's smart, too, and capaple of taking care of herself with a variety of weapons. So far so good. She even says that her looks are part of her tailoring to be a perfect female spcimen, something she ranks along with her biotics, physical durability, reaction speeds, etc. so we can construe at least that her appearance can be used as a weapon too. But is she manipulative? I'd say no.

Miranda is a lot of things (she's certainly capable of being dangerous and sexy all at once) but her ability to interact with others emotionally is pretty damn stunted. She's an unassailable ice-queen of sorts; her intellect puts her up on a pedestal almost where other people are hard pushed to keep up and end up falling behind the one thing that can keep pace - her work. The much-argued LotSB dossier for Miranda paints her to me as a woman that has real difficulties dealing with emotions; she has desires, but can't cope with the baggage or uncertainty of relationships... it's like she tried to figure out the facts of life with a pocket calculator, and understandably got the wrong answer. Like Jacob says, their relationship got "real close, then it got real far apart." Perhaps this was because Jacob couldn't fill in the blanks as it were; sure, he could (and this is gonna sound real blunt, but bear with me) fill a specific need, but to him with that came a need for affection, closeness, tenderness, trust... all things Miranda wasn't willing to share at that point (perhaps because of her natural aloofness, or perhaps because she just wasn't sure how to then). So the relationship fizzled out. Maybe Jacob never really fully trusted her because of her being so far into Cerberus (he talks about how everyone tries to be The Illusive Man, keeping their cards against their chests and hiding their intentions, while Jacob seems pretty open and plain-speaking on most issues... let's just ignore his inability to chat women up  )? Who knows. Either way, it dried up on them. Her interactions with men on the dating website is clinical and blunter than a sledgehammer (motives aside - I know some people read it as an attempt to get pregnant, but that's another discussion entirely). So blunt it's completely charmless. This to me is a woman that can't charm (or simply doesn't want to). She doesn't display the ability to manipulate anywhere in the game, and in my book a Bondian femme fatale can't just look cute and be deadly; that's a femmebot, something lacks the tentacles to ensnare and manipulate the hero into not noticing her intentions in the itterations of pulp fiction. So based on that, I'd say Miranda really isn't a femme fatale at all; they're not just a pretty box with a gun inside it, they're a pretty box with a gun inside it that you then pick up, get your fingerprints all over, and then turns out to be the weapon they killed their husband with... oh, is that police sirens I hear?

It's all a matter of semantics, really. If a femme fatale is a dangerous woman (no more, no less), then sure, I'd agree that Miranda ticks the (two) boxes for it. But if a femme fatale is a schemer, a manipulator, and a deadly opponent should you rouse her, she can only tick a few of the boxes required; she has the look, the physical deadliness, but not the psychological arsenal that got Salome the head of John the Baptist, or let Mata Hari steal the secret plans, or let Ruth Wonderly play Sam Spade into almost giving up the Maltese Falcon. If that's what makes a famme fatale, Miranda really can't be one... or at the very least, not a very good one.

[Elyvern]

Bravo, Mondo! You hit the nail in many places, except for one.  My personal impression is it isn't so much the fact that Miranda is incapable of emotionally engagement, but rather she doesn't think it's important, and she doesn't give a damn what other people think about her either. Work is all that matters for her, and almost everything else is a distraction, arguably neccessary distractions that must be addressed, but not worth the effort of putting too much into either.

This isn't to say she's inept socially, she can get along fine in regular social situations, but she doesn't care for niceties. She's probably capable of playing out the seductress role, going down a checklist of what the role requires, but her tendency is for blunt confrontations, and I like her more for that. But faced with a serious relationship like romance or a familial relationship with her sister, her neglect of those skills like learning to build an emotional connection and such does become very glaring. I definitely don't discount the possibility that Jacob found himself unable to connect with her emotionally as a reason for their breaking up, but I also feel she may think he was too idealistic and too straightforward in his moral principles to fulfil her.

@ShrinkingFish & Ryzaki: welcome to the thread. It would be a pity if there's bad blood solely out of arguing the semantics of what a femme fatale is, given that there is so much more about Miranda than that particular stereotype. Sheath those swords and spend your energy on more worthwhile arguments!

[Ieldra]

ShrinkingFish wrote...
Yes... let us extend that definition to encompass all forms the Femme Fatale can take. Please. It is much more comprehensive than many would imagine it to be. The Femme Fatale can take many many forms. It only requires three elements which Miranda encompasses fully.

The problem is by extending the definition you can claim almost every beautiful woman who ever was the reason a man put himself into dangerous situations is a femme fatale. The definition would lose meaning. I'll reply to your claims, but I don't agree with your definition.

Mysterious: Which she is. She's a nobody to you, then a voice, then a murderer, then the one holding your leash, then she lies to you about her "twin" sister, then etc. etc. etc. You never know if what she says is absolutely true.

The problem is, she comes across as a person who would rather be blunt, not mysterious. You'd have to assume that's an act. If it is, then there's the fact she doesn't remain mysterious. If you romance her, there's every indication you're getting behind her barriers, and none that it's all an act. Had Bioware intended more hidden depths, they'd have given us a bit of an indication instead of presenting a perfect act. You see a conspiracy with no evidence - of course I can't prove there is none, but that doesn't mean your claim is plausible. 

Sensual and Attractive: Everyone comments of her body and looks (even her as they were designed to "give [her] an edge"). She accentuates them with form fitting clothing. And the camera work emphasises her sexuality.

OK.

And she leads the lover into danger: Miranda loves Shepard, Shepard destroys the base and quits Cerberus, Miranda still loves Shepard and still loves her sister, Cerberus controls her sister's well being. That doesn't scream danger to you? And that is all within ME2.

(1) And is this a danger Shepard wouldn't be in if didn't love Miranda? He went on dangerous missions for all of his team in ME2.
(2) My Shepard doesn't destroy the base, and in my games Miranda mostly doesn't resign. Not what?

We don't see the outcome of Miranda's romance as it is reserved for ME3. And you don't see any possibility of it becoming a huge problem? None at all? No split allegiences? No conflicting loves? The end of ME2 is just a happily ever after for her and Shepard?

Of course I see possibilities. But (1) Shepard has split allegiances between Cerbers and the Alliance/Council anyway, (2) we did discuss the possibility that Miranda's presence might adversely affect Shepard's ability to fight the Reapers in ME3, but that's a role that can be played by any LI, and (3) we don't think Bioware would single out Miranda for a role adversely affecting Shepard.

You're right. It doesn't happen within ME2. But ME2 isn't the ending. It is just the middle chapter. I'm putting forth why Miranda fits the bill of the Femme Fatale up to the great fall. The lack of the ending seems to be a huge handicap for anyone who cannot even entertain the idea and that displays a lack of imagination.

Do not take disagreement as a lack of imagination.

Point is there are clear and evident evidences that exist within the character in ME2. Those who do not see them are choosing to ignore them. I listed just about all of them in previous posts and reiterated the main points here and all anyone has done to refute the claims is said "Nuh uh...". I have presented solid, in game evidence, not speculation or assumption, except for my own prediction of the possible fall that may or may not be coming.

Actually, the points are not as clear as you claim. This is your interpretation of in-game facts, not in-game facts themselves, apart from the obvious one that Miranda is very attractive and not beyond using that to get what she wants. As this is interpretation, you have no right to say that people who disagree with you are ignoring facts.

I don't appreciate the tone people are taking with me. As I am being attacked I am getting defensive. When I get defensive my speech becomes more aggressive. You came into this discussion on a high horse of false authority and accused me of trolling. Of course I am going to respond aggressively. What? You expect me to roll over or something?

I did not accuse you of trolling (it may have been a bit hasty, yes) because of the way you replied to me, but because you claimed - and continue to claim - that everyone else but you is wrong on flimsy evidence. In the quoted post alone there are two instances of you claiming people who don't agree with you lack imagination or ignore the obvious.

Edit:
I agree with Mondo47's analysis except for the point Elyvern makes, where I agree with her reply.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 octobre 2010 - 12:53 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Changed the OP.

Added the following fanfic:
"Recruitment Mission: Kaidan vs. Miranda" by Dinah Lance
"Friendly Rivals: Liara and Miranda" by Dinah Lance
"Three Steps Forward" by Thessilian

These are amazing, especially "Three Steps Forward" about Jack and Miranda's budding friendship.

As an aside, I'm glad that some of us made a visit to Jack's appreciation page for a deeper understanding of her character, and Mondo has made the trip over to see what's it like over here. We should organise more of such field trips. Who knows, maybe one day, Jack and Miranda fans will come to a mutual understanding like how our two favourite characters do in the fic above.

Modifié par Elyvern, 27 octobre 2010 - 01:14 .

[jtav]

I would have loved it if Miranda had been seducing and manipulating Shepard for her own ends. Sadly, there's not a shred of evidence this is the case. Almost all her interaction with Shepard would have to be a lie. Bioware isn't that subtle. Their traitors and villains all but have neon signs above their heads. Every indication is that Miranda genuinely cares about a romanced Shep and that falling into bed with him wasn't part of the plan. More's the pity.

[Prudii Aden]

A couple I'd suggest -
http://www.fanfictio.../]Defining Luck by Commander Copyright
http://www.fanfictio...hout Obligation by deejaymcknight

I'm undecided about this one though -
http://www.fanfictio...lack Swan Event by 00Captain Crunch

[t3HPrO]

jtav wrote...

I would have loved it if Miranda had been seducing and manipulating Shepard for her own ends. Sadly, there's not a shred of evidence this is the case. Almost all her interaction with Shepard would have to be a lie. Bioware isn't that subtle. Their traitors and villains all but have neon signs above their heads. Every indication is that Miranda genuinely cares about a romanced Shep and that falling into bed with him wasn't part of the plan. More's the pity.

Ugh your obsession sends her straight down the movie cliche 'hot as hell villian chick who seduces the hero' hall, and that would make many of us Mirimancers/maniacs jump ship in a heartbeat. We want a hot chick with brains and who can take care of herself who is afraid to let you in because she's afraid of screwing the relationship up, not another seductress. If I wanted a tough, hot as hell seductress, I'd bloody watch Goldeneye.