15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

enayasoul wrote...
I can see her becoming an SB agent for Liara or a part of the winning team. Shepard's team. I would be VERY disappointed if she wasn't in ME3!  I would think she would want to see this to the very end, regardless if she was romanced or not.  I hope she keeps some her "ice" about her...   I hope they don't skimp out on some romance content between the too. I want it and I am sure others do too. Miranda forever.

*Nods profusely* This post is full 'o win. Miranda is my favorite romance and I will probably keep a 10 foot pole between me and any fututre Bioware games if Miranda's role in ME3 is poorly done until I know they're done correctly.

If any LI's role in ME3, whether from ME1 or ME2, is significantly diminished, then it's like a promise not delivered. ME2 got away with how they treated Ashley and Kaidan only because they're expected to return in ME3. I could excuse them giving Thane or Jack smaller roles, because we know they won't live long, I can also see them remove Jacob (make him go off with Kasumi) because nobody likes his romance, but every other LI absolutely must return with significant screen presence. Bioware says "choices matter", they also said they weren't constrained by having to make a convergent ending any more. If they sideline all old characters in favor of new ones again, all that will have meant nothing, and I won't believe such claims any more.  

I'm actually playing through DA:O right now (first playthrough) and I was curious, which romance option (for male characters) do other die-hard Miri fans prefer? I think both Morrigan and Lelilena are interesting and I do not really know as of yet who I'llend up romancing. I'd like to watch some romance dialogue on youtube, but all I've found is spoiler-filled. Can anyome here testify to the quality of the two romance options? A romance similar to the quality and feeling of Miranda's would be preferable. Something of high quality is all^_^

DAO romances are more extensive than ME romances, and involve more complex dialogue. On the other hand, there are no real "dialogue scenes" where characters move about and do things while speaking, which makes ME2's scenes more realistic. Morrigan is probably the most Miranda-like option. She's more callous than Miranda, though, sometimes to the point of stupidity. What I like about her is that she's independent and she has her own agenda. Be warned (if you don't already know): there is a point in her romance where you might be tempted to throw your monitor out of the window. I am one of the few who really loved it. Leliana's romance has a more classic appeal, but she's interesting enough that I'm not bothered by it. At this point, I wouldn't recommend one over the other, though Morrigan's is more unconventional.  
BTW, don't forget to mod the romance scenes. You know what I mean.

Here's another old Miranda screenshot, BTW - I picked one at random:

[Prudii Aden]

Both DAO romances are good, in my opinion - although Morrigan does come close to the Evil is Stupid trope - she's far too self centred for her own good. Lelilana is the more 'civilised' or standard romance, but with a bit of a twist. Up until her loyalty mission, she's a largely Paragon romance, but after that, you can get her to be a bit more Paragade.
Indeed, mod the love scenes, otherwise it'll be ridiculously jarring. I'd suggest you look at http://www.dragonagenexus.com, and perhaps this mod or this mod

Modifié par Prudii Aden, 28 octobre 2010 - 11:20 .

[Caihn]

I prefer Morrigan as a character, but I prefer Leliana romance.

My first character in DAO is a female, and I've done Alistair romance, but then I regretted my choice when I romanced Leliana with my second character.

BTW, I played DA2 yesterday at the Paris Games Week. Unfortunately it was the PS3 version, and I'm not very enthusiast of what I've seen. I hope the PC version will look better, and will be less "hack & slash" in terms of gameplay. 

Modifié par Yannkee, 28 octobre 2010 - 11:56 .

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...
I can see her becoming an SB agent for Liara[...]

I do not want her to be second to Liara. I want her to have her own power base.

[Arijharn]

I prefer Morrigan tbh. Leliana is a nice girl, but sometimes nice girls are boring...



As to Ieldra's last post though, I would imagine that any decision to marginalize any character (LI included) would be frankly a stupid (to the point of being outright disastrous) decision for BioWare to make. I haven't ever romanced Jack (she is the exception to that occasional bad girl mentality I have because she's just extreme...) and I don't really have a bromance with Jacob, but the simple fact that there must be some people have done so just makes your position untenable. I know sometimes companies must cut ideas to which they are otherwise convinced are good ones, but the simple fact is that BioWare has done enough selling of this idea of a coherent world and characters makes me think that this is such a strong intent for them and their marketing then it's impossible for them to really back out.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

enayasoul wrote...
I can see her becoming an SB agent for Liara[...]

I do not want her to be second to Liara. I want her to have her own power base.

I've actually been rethinking my old "Illusive Woman" idea. I'm starting to doubt Miranda's suitability there. She has a brilliant tactical mind, but her actual ability to command is hampered by abysmal people skills and a complete lack of charisma. More than that, she seems to like being a lieutenant/advisor. She likes having authority, and there are none better when it comes to planning, but she likes having direction. She's not a pushover, but she prefers following to leading. She's the ideal 2IC if she believes in the cause.

Again, this doesn't make her weaker or less than Shepard/TIM. It means she has a different skill set.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

enayasoul wrote...
I can see her becoming an SB agent for Liara[...]

I do not want her to be second to Liara. I want her to have her own power base.

I've actually been rethinking my old "Illusive Woman" idea. I'm starting to doubt Miranda's suitability there. She has a brilliant tactical mind, but her actual ability to command is hampered by abysmal people skills and a complete lack of charisma. More than that, she seems to like being a lieutenant/advisor. She likes having authority, and there are none better when it comes to planning, but she likes having direction. She's not a pushover, but she prefers following to leading. She's the ideal 2IC if she believes in the cause.

Again, this doesn't make her weaker or less than Shepard/TIM. It means she has a different skill set.

I have to disagree. While I will admit that she wouldn't make a great leader for the character reasons you listed above, she has traits to be at least a competent leader. The tendency to see that she likes having direction is because she's good at obeying rules, even when they go against her personal misgivings. Being a good follower doesn't mean that person is automatically disqualified to be a good leader, given that in her case, a good follower doesn't mean an inability to think and plan for oneself. I will admit that she does seem to suffer from blinkered vision by blindly adhering to TIM's principles initially, but it has been proven that she can and does think for herself by quitting Cerberus (lack of or flimsy justifications aside)

The other thing is professionally, she has a long way to go in terms of acquiring experience and wisdom of hindsight in a bigger variety of roles and responsibilities. Serving one organisation does have a tendency to lead to complacency and limited vision. She's actually very young by ME human standards, and while she may not be up to the task of leading an organisation as big as Cerberus right now, there's nothing to say that she wouldn't given 10 or 20 years time.

[jtav]

Oh, she's definitely a competent leader. Lazarus was a success after all. Her real gift seems to be with the administration/logistics side of things. Shepard and TIM are good at deciding what needs to be done and providing a face to the organization. Miranda is the behind-the-scenes person who decides how to accomplish the goal. She and Shep complement each other beautifully in that regard. As of now, she seems to have neither the ability or desire to lead something like Cerberus. This may change in future, but we'll have to see. She's a powerful and skilled but desires to be of use more than she desires power. Her problem is that she ties that usefulness to her self-concept in a way that's unhealthy.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I've actually been rethinking my old "Illusive Woman" idea. I'm starting to doubt Miranda's suitability there. She has a brilliant tactical mind, but her actual ability to command is hampered by abysmal people skills and a complete lack of charisma.

She doesn't have abysmal people skills. If her statement that she's a good judge of character isn't a complete delusion - and I don't think it is - then she simply doesn't bother most of the time.

More than that, she seems to like being a lieutenant/advisor. She likes having authority, and there are none better when it comes to planning, but she likes having direction. She's not a pushover, but she prefers following to leading. She's the ideal 2IC if she believes in the cause.

She likes direction because she doesn't believe in herself enough. Once she's dealt with that problem, I doubt very much she'd be content to be second in command for long.

I also agree with Elyvern in this matter.

Edit:
I agree she's best in a behind-the-scenes role, at least for now. But if her whole organization is behind the scenes, that's not much of a handicap. Also, see what Liara has become in comparison.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 octobre 2010 - 04:27 .

[achwas]

Ieldra2 wrote...
She doesn't have abysmal people skills. If her statement that she's a good judge of character isn't a complete delusion - and I don't think it is - then she simply doesn't bother most of the time.
....

She likes direction because she doesn't believe in herself enough. Once she's dealt with that problem, I doubt very much she'd be content to be second in command for long.

I think you are pretty much on target there. She won't bother with being nice, although perhaps she lacks practise at empathy, and not real motivation. Say, the way she toys with Jacob and his unresolved family business. There is obvious inrterst, but in a slightly detached, academic way, as if taking notes of the results.

As for her "lack of direction" - I think that's more about lack of a cause. Something she feels save devoting herself too....  Cerberus maybe a sort of home for her, but there is a certain undercurrent of disagreement, even distate over the practises of some cells.
Someting Shepard, without even being her LI, could provide. As an LI.... well she seems too strong and self-reliant to stand in the shadow of or the required 2 steps behind Shepard forever, I agree on that. 

Modifié par achwas, 28 octobre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Ieldra]

Here's a little piece of fanfic I came across. A bit unpolished in style, could be longer, and has some generic elements in it, but I like it - Miranda shows her acting ability and gets a badass moment.

Old Friends Part II by Aeria Lyndon.

No idea what "Part I" may be...

@Prudii Aden:
I haven't forgotten your fanfic recommendations. I only didn't have the time to check them out. I'm undecided about "Defining Luck" since it's more about Shepard than Miranda and haven't read the other yet.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 octobre 2010 - 07:50 .

[Elyvern]

Just finished reading Ascension and I'm a little irked by the implications of what's considered as rare racial traits in humans. Especially where it talks about swarthy skin, dark eyes and hair being the norm for most humans because of interracial marriages. But how many of these do we even see in game? For example, very few people have swarthy skin like Anderson's.

And the point about pale skin, blue eyes and blonde hair being almost non-existent in the ME universe like a saying those traits suggest some phantom sign of "original" racial purity is hard to dispel. Which is exactly how Miranda was originally designed to look like. Even though the game engine makes blonde hair look bad, and the devs decided on dark hair was better for her femme fatale image, I still find myself quite disturbed at the authorial implications behind her graphical design.

[jtav]

I almost wish they had done it. Dad is already a eugenicist creep. I can almost see him designing Miranda as a deliberate throwback to "before humans all started looking the same." The only problem would be her loyalty outfit. It already reminds me of an SS uniform, though it doesn't rise to Putting on the Reich levels. I doubt they meant to suggest such a thing.

[Elyvern]

Something like this would be really off-putting to alot of players, myself included. Genetic superiority is fine because it can be substantiated, but to imply that there's a qualifiable aspect to a person's physical looks is downright prejudice, not to mention that something like this carries so much social and historical baggage comtemporarily. I still don't get why was this point had to be mentioned so many times in all 3 books.

[jtav]

The books are cringe worthy in that regard. What I meant was that if they were being deliberately unsettling with Miranda's original appearance, then it would have worked for me.

[Markinator_123]

I was looking at the sliding scale of anti-heroes and I saw Miranda's name in category III good is not nice. I was wondering what category does everybody believe Miranda fits in. I personally think she fits the "what the hell? hero" category IV.



http://tvtropes.org/...aleOfAntiHeroes

[Elyvern]

To be honest, that idea never occured to me until I finished all 3 books and kept having that damn point thrown at me again and again. Of course, Miranda was modelled after Strahovski, but say we set that aside. Taking in the marked differences between both their faces after import, and looking at Miranda without meta-knowledge, she looked to me like she has some asian heritage because her eyes are set so widely apart, and her features doesn't have the characteristic angularity of caucasian faces.

[jtav]

I put her in "What the hell, hero?" category myself. Primarily because of her control chip suggestion and "clearly you were a mistake." I like her that way, at least from a character standpoint.

[Elyvern]

I agree. She seems more like a category IV, but moving into III at the end of ME2. Although the justification for her being in III seems to be primarily because that such types usually display a strong sense of order and a like for rules. Meh..., sounds like bad attempts to pigeon-hole square pegs, imo... Definitely disagree that she is sliding towards II though, and god forbid that she gets paragon-ised further, thank you.

Modifié par Elyvern, 28 octobre 2010 - 09:47 .

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

To be honest, that idea never occured to me until I finished all 3 books and kept having that damn point thrown at me again and again. Of course, Miranda was modelled after Strahovski, but say we set that aside. Taking in the marked differences between both their faces after import, and looking at Miranda without meta-knowledge, she looked to me like she has some asian heritage because her eyes are set so widely apart, and her features doesn't have the characteristic angularity of caucasian faces.

Well, Yvonne Strahovski is Polish, so she likely has some Slavic blood in her. A lot of Slavs have somewhat Asiatic features. You can kind of see it in her eyes and nose. Miranda isn't a perfect copy of Yvonne, but the eyes and the nose are quite similar. Miranda isn't quite the Aryan ideal espoused by the N*zis, but then again, few people are.

That point about the ME books overstressing how everybody looks the same in the future was a little disturbing to me as well. I understand that pale skin and fair hair and eyes are recessive traits that would likely become much more rare were extensive interbreeding to take place, but can't these things also be determined by genetic engineering? In a world where genetic engineering in fetuses was common, couldn't parents choose recessive traits for their children? 

This might just be the product of me being a visible minority in a predominantly caucasian country, but the idea of a world where everybody looks the same just sounds kind of... bland.

Elyvern wrote...

I agree. She seems more like a category
IV, but moving into III at the end of ME2. And god forbid she goes up
the scale anymore!

Yeah, Miranda tends to slide between III and IV. I'd have to see what happens in ME3 to conclusively say which. I'd hate to see her make the full transition to hero though.

Modifié par fongiel24, 28 octobre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Markinator_123]

jtav wrote...

I put her in "What the hell, hero?" category myself. Primarily because of her control chip suggestion and "clearly you were a mistake." I like her that way, at least from a character standpoint.

I know right. Someone should modify that page and put Miranda in category IV. Lets see

Willing to execute people in cold blood?/Pay Evil unto Evil- check
Willing to "shoot the dog?" I bet she has done this quite a bit
However, has demonstrated kindness on quite a few occasions? Yes

She is definately not a category III but she is not a category V either (that goes to Zaeed). Keep in mind that this is my favorite type of anti-hero. My main paragade Shepard fits this to a T.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 28 octobre 2010 - 09:48 .

[philiposophy]

Wrapped up my latest playthrough today (well the Suicide Mission anyway). Was fortunate enough to get the fantastic balance of Shepard pulling up Miranda on the platforms, and then Miranda pulling Shepard onto the Normandy. Awesome.



With regard to anti-hero discussion, I agree that she's probably a type IV, though type III might be applicable.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

That point about the ME books overstressing how everybody looks the same in the future was a little disturbing to me as well. I understand that pale skin and fair hair and eyes are recessive traits that would likely become much more rare were extensive interbreeding to take place, but can't these things also be determined by genetic engineering? In a world where genetic engineering in fetuses was common, couldn't parents choose recessive traits for their children? 

You give Bioware too much credit, because genetic engineering doesn't even get considered as a possibility. Karpyshyn kept trying to qualify his point with statements about how cosmetic changes like hair and skin dyeing and iris pigmentation treatments make the notion of racial purity moot. I can't help but see the trend where again and again, the writers fail to consider scientific advancements in the ME universe and think we're stupid enough to take what they say at face value.

Modifié par Elyvern, 28 octobre 2010 - 10:10 .

[Markinator_123]

It would be lame if she becomes a type II in ME3 or even worse a full-blown hero. She would suffer from bad*** decay. Then again I usually prefer anti-heroes over straight-up good guys. I have never even had the nerve to do a "pure paragon" playthrough in ME2. That would just bore me to tears. If you can do one (or have) I commend you because I can't do it.

[Elyvern]

philiposophy wrote...

Wrapped up my latest playthrough today (well the Suicide Mission anyway). Was fortunate enough to get the fantastic balance of Shepard pulling up Miranda on the platforms, and then Miranda pulling Shepard onto the Normandy. Awesome.

The squadmate whose icon is at the right will always be the one Shepard rescues from falling. Pacifien's tests have also shown that if you take Miranda with you to the final boss and she survives, she will always be the one to pull you up. There's a priority list, and she's right at the top. The same squadmate at the right will always be the one to hand Shep the charges to blow up the base, and Miranda will always be the one to activate the omni-tool when you talk to TIM at the CB. I always make sure that all happens so she basically does everything in the whole final fight to the extent sometimes I forget who I bring along as the second squadmate.  

Modifié par Elyvern, 28 octobre 2010 - 10:25 .