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[Elyvern]

Mondo47 wrote...

It's almost become a trope of contemporary sci-fi now; this idea that not only in the future there will be robots, but everyone will have a touch of olive or cofee-colour to their skin and redheads and blondes and pure caucasians will be somehow extinct due only to our globalised culture. I've only really noticed it a lot in the past decade or so, so I have no idea if it's harking back to something mooted back in the golden age of sci-fi, or it's based on modern thoughts about genetic migration, but sometimes I'd like to go back in time, find out who's to blame, and kick 'em in the shins... damn thing gets treated like gospel now!

I see it as a rosemary's baby born out of the attempt to recognise, address and extrapolate the effects of globalisation and the human tendency to oversimplify things. Catchphrases like "racial melting pots" don't help either, because it's so easy to picture a scenario where one just throws everything in, and keep stirring till everything becomes a uniformed gloop. But with big numbers that run into the billions and additional factors like global distances, cutural biases, distasteful things like social strata based on ethnic differences etc, etc, anyone with two braincells will know it can never be that clear-cut. I suppose sci-fi being sometimes branded as a literature of hope and foresight compels its writers and thinkers to project a shining future where racial harmony is an outdated concept, the same way disease and proverty are 20th century phenomena.

But we are, however, going OT. I suppose all I can say is I'm glad Miranda didn't end up blonde from her earlier design concepts. That she doesn't look quintessentially white (setting aside meta-knowledge) is another plus point for me. The fact that she has blue eyes and pale skin seem to already suggest that her father may have intentionally engineered her to be so. Making her blonde would honestly scream "racial purity" to me given the amount of qualification in the novels about the general characteristics of human populations in ME. And race is definitely the most offensive, not to mention baseless, criterion for genetic superiority.

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 octobre 2010 - 03:43 .

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

I can't really dismiss the combined population totals of places such as NZ, Aus, Canada, the USA, Europe including the Scandinavian countries as being a miniscule amount. It's a viable genetic pool for example. It may not be as populous as those of asian decent, but that isn't really relevant surely, because it's still sizeable.

How can you accept this at face value, but not other aspects of the game (*cough*Miranda*cough*) ?

To that, I would add I haven't even factored in African populations or S Americans. The sticking point here is at current levels, the caucasian race is a minority when viewed as an ethnic group in Earth's population.  And I only take it at its face value because lots of things can influence population and breeding patterns. That we're given no clues as to how such homogeneity is achieved doesn't mean that we can rule it out, implausible as such a trend may seem without overt influences.

[Arijharn]

For some reason I can't actually see her father as being particularly racist. I can see him viewing certain aspects more appealing than others, but I don't think that's nearly the same thing.



I can see him as being slightly xenophobic though, but not so overtly as to publicly support the Terra Firma party.

[Arijharn]

But, if what you are saying is true; we'd have a bigger chance of becoming the next gray's than anything else

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

For some reason I can't actually see her father as being particularly racist. I can see him viewing certain aspects more appealing than others, but I don't think that's nearly the same thing.

I can see him as being slightly xenophobic though, but not so overtly as to publicly support the Terra Firma party.

I wasn't referring to Bioware writers' intent to protray him as racist or such. but rather the intentions of the writers in depicting Miranda as the focus of such an ideal, and how they percieve that portrayal would be received by their audience - gamers like us. Hypothetically-speaking, it may garner more sympathy for Miranda in the sense that her father is not just a callous man who treats his daughters as assets but also a racial bigot. But do remember that being engineered to be perfect is very much the template for Miranda, and there's so much flak out there already about her physical assets and her status as "Miss Perfect". Can you imagine what'll happen if we throw in notions of racial purity into that mix?

[fongiel24]

Blondes are already a minority in most places outside the Scandinavian countries. Even in predominantly caucasian countries blondes are a minority. If there was extensive interbreeding between races, I think it'd be reasonable to assume blonde hair and blue eyes would become even more rare. However, this is all assuming a world without genetic engineering, as I mentioned earlier. People always want their kids to be unique and special. If the technology was available to select against genes that cause developmental problems and genetic illnesses, why wouldn't parents be able to select for blue eyes and blonde hair? Depending on what technology can do, it might even be possible for parents who lack any genes for blonde hair and blue eyes to have a child that possessed both.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

Blondes are already a minority in most places outside the Scandinavian countries. Even in predominantly caucasian countries blondes are a minority. If there was extensive interbreeding between races, I think it'd be reasonable to assume blonde hair and blue eyes would become even more rare. However, this is all assuming a world without genetic engineering, as I mentioned earlier. People always want their kids to be unique and special. If the technology was available to select against genes that cause developmental problems and genetic illnesses, why wouldn't parents be able to select for blue eyes and blonde hair? Depending on what technology can do, it might even be possible for parents who lack any genes for blonde hair and blue eyes to have a child that possessed both.

Heh, I must point out here that originally, Miranda was supposed to be Scandinavian too.

But I agree the ommision is very glaring. And as I mentioned before, its makes the writers look slip-shod for not even hinting at the possibility. Instead, we get an extrapolation based on....cosmetic changes. Maybe superficial modifications that doesn't alter the root of what makes us humans (genetics) was seen as a better way to account for physical variety in such a way that wouldn't lead to any signs of controversy about promoting certain racial traits with another similarly valid rationalisation.

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 octobre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Markinator_123]

So it is settled Miranda is a category IV anti-hero. I wonder if she would support the Jack Bauer Interrogation technique.

[fongiel24]

Markinator_123 wrote...

So it is settled Miranda is a category IV anti-hero. I wonder if she would support the Jack Bauer Interrogation technique.

Only in an emergency if there was no other alternative and if she was sure it'd be effective. Miranda doesn't strike me as a sadist or the type of person who would favour such crude methods. I think Miranda would take a much more cerebral approach and get into the prisoner's head. If she did use torture, I think she would use chemical means to extract information rather than simply brutalizing the subject.

[Elyvern]

superfluous post

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 octobre 2010 - 03:43 .

[tommyt_1994]

fongiel24 wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

So it is settled Miranda is a category IV anti-hero. I wonder if she would support the Jack Bauer Interrogation technique.

Only in an emergency if there was no other alternative and if she was sure it'd be effective. Miranda doesn't strike me as a sadist or the type of person who would favour such crude methods. I think Miranda would take a much more cerebral approach and get into the prisoner's head. If she did use torture, I think she would use chemical means to extract information rather than simply brutalizing the subject.

I agree. I don't think Miranda would jump to take pliers to a guy's face for some info, unless absolutely necessary. I'm one of the people who believe that Miranda was probably kept out of the darker experiments by TIM, we know she's disturbed by Pragia and I'd be willing to bet the same goes for Overlord. But using her looks, or maybe drugging someone up to get some info? Sure. Miranda's a renegade, not evil and I'd very much like her to stay that way. HINT HINT Bioware!

[t3HPrO]

I always saw Miranda as a 'do almost whatever it takes' kind of woman. She'll do almost anything it takes to get what she wants, but if there's anything she really doesn't want to do, she won't. And even then, she's burying her conscience about torturing someone. She is quite obviously opposed to torture, as evidenced by Purgatory.



Now, for the blonde part. Miranda's 'father' may have viewed blonde hair as a genetic weakness, as to have blonde hair, you need to have recessive allelles. However, recessive allelles also bring about a host of problem dominant ones that make up brunettes(I still can't figure out what allelle set redheads have) don't. For example, albinism is caused by recessive allelles. I was forced to take another module besides psychology(grr), so I picked genetics.

[sipaufade]

I think Miranda represses her issues more than jack.



I think Miranda desires a family with some one who cares about her and children. I think she represses these feelings because of her doctor saying she will never have kids. I think the whole e dating thing is her just trying to find a genetic powerhouse strong enough to overcome her "genetic mutations" preventing her from having children. Hence her interest in Shepard and why "she requires a better man than [Jacob]"

I also base my feeling of her wanting a family from her quiet moment of silence after commenting on orinas family situation after her loyalty mission.

[fongiel24]

t3HPrO wrote...

I always saw Miranda as a 'do almost whatever it takes' kind of woman. She'll do almost anything it takes to get what she wants, but if there's anything she really doesn't want to do, she won't. And even then, she's burying her conscience about torturing someone. She is quite obviously opposed to torture, as evidenced by Purgatory.

Miranda never says she's against torture on Purgatory. She's against torture for torture's sake. The exact quote is "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty.".

Now, for the blonde part. Miranda's 'father' may have viewed blonde hair as a genetic weakness, as to have blonde hair, you need to have recessive allelles. However, recessive allelles also bring about a host of problem dominant ones that make up brunettes(I still can't figure out what allelle set redheads have) don't. For example, albinism is caused by recessive allelles. I was forced to take another module besides psychology(grr), so I picked genetics.

Um... what? Recessive trait =/= defective trait. "Recessive allele" just means they remain inactive when paired with their dominant counterpart. It doesn't mean the dominant trait is superior. Just because some recessive traits like albinism and sickle cell anemia are recessive traits doesn't mean all recessive traits are negative.

The alleles responsible for red hair and the alleles responsible for blonde hair are different but both of them are recessive to alleles responsible for dark hair. Therefore, both red hair and blonde hair are recessive.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Thanks. Although the gist of these articles seem to be about exposing the fact that no proper scientific studies has been conducted. If interracial breeding is as prevalent as ME makes it out to be, it does seem that blonde hair and blue eyes will indeed become a rarity in the general human population.

You don't need studies to know that the "disappearing" claim is bullsh*t. From theoretical considerations, it's like this: assuming random interbreeding and no selection against a particular allele, the number of people expressing a recessive trait will remain stable, or in case of changed population dynamics, stabilize at different levels. The confusion comes from the fact that the function mapping the prevalence of the allele to the prevalence of the expressed trait is not linear but quadratic:

Here's a thought experiments with Mendelian genetics: Consider a population consisting of 50% blondes (coded 11) and 50% dark-haired people, with none of the latter carrying a "blonde" allele (coded 00). Then the population will stabilize, statistically, at about 25% blondes (11) , with 75% carrying the blonde allele (11 or 10). If you half the prevalence of the allele, for instance by starting with 11,00,00,00, you'll *not* get a population with 12.5% blondes (1/8), but only 6.25% (1/16).

Now let's say there are 12.5% (1/8) blondes in the European population, that would be the result of an allele prevalence of about 35% (1/sqrt(8)). Assume random interbreeding with a group of exclusively dark-haired people so big that the original group makes up only 10% of the total, bringing the prevalence down to 3.5%. At the start of the "mixing" process, you'd have 1.25% blondes in the combined population, but as interbreeding continues, this will go down and stabilize at 1/(1/0.035²) ~ 0.12%. The recessive trait will never disappear, and the process may last several dozens of generations depending on how random the interbreeding is.

All this assuming, of course, that there is no selection for or against the blonde gene, and that the amount of people genetically engineering their children's hair color remains statistically insignificant.

Edit:
Please note that 0.1% of ten billion would still be 10 million blondes. So, comparatively rare, yes. Almost unheard of, no.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 octobre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Ieldra]

sipaufade wrote...
I think Miranda desires a family with some one who cares about her and children. I think she represses these feelings because of her doctor saying she will never have kids. I think the whole e dating thing is her just trying to find a genetic powerhouse strong enough to overcome her "genetic mutations" preventing her from having children. Hence her interest in Shepard and why "she requires a better man than [Jacob]"

If Miranda is infertile, then no genetic attribute of her partner will change that. The idea of overcoming infertility by a partner's "superior" genetic template is nonsense. Also note that the medical report in the dossier comes after her experiments in extranet dating, and that the dossier explicitly says that the doctor doesn't know if her condition is genetic.

[prayer wheel mode]
I want Miranda's infertility gone!
[/prayer wheel mode]

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 octobre 2010 - 08:05 .

[Arijharn]

I'm confused though, didn't he say that her condition is also inoperable? Or are you like me and think to yourself: "Hell, this woman had the intellect to successfully resurrect someone from the dead. I think she's more than intelligent to find some way to cure her problem." Until Shephard came along though, maybe she didn't think of it as being too much of a problem at all, maybe she still doesn't.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
I'm confused though, didn't he say that her condition is also inoperable?

No, he didn't say that. It's somewhat implied by his suggestion of adopting a child. But I don't believe it - a "benign neoplasm" shouldn't be inoperable, even more so with the level of biotech displayed in the game..

Or are you like me and think to yourself: "Hell, this woman had the intellect to successfully resurrect someone from the dead. I think she's more than intelligent to find some way to cure her problem."

Exactly. I have suggested various possibilities of dealing with the problem, dependent on the exact kind of infertility, in the Miranda Lawson FAQ (scroll down to part IV).

Until Shephard came along though, maybe she didn't think of it as being too much of a problem at all, maybe she still doesn't.

The medical report isn't dated. Maybe it's just a month old. What she thinks of it, no idea, but I do think she would like to have children at some time in the future, so it likely matters to her. Or did you mean that she doesn't think it's much of a *medical* problem. That could be, though in that case the doctor who diagnosed it must have been incompetent. Hmm...considering Bioware's competence in biology, he probably was.

[Errol Dnamyx]

Elyvern wrote.
 Making her blonde would honestly scream "racial purity" to me given the amount of qualification in the novels about the general characteristics of human populations in ME. And race is definitely the most offensive, not to mention baseless, criterion for genetic superiority.

I can only shake my head at that comment...

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:15 .

[Axestone]

Ieldra2

If Miranda is infertile, then no genetic attribute of her partner will change that. The idea of overcoming infertility by a partner's "superior" genetic template is nonsense. Also note that the medical report in the dossier comes after her experiments in extranet dating, and that the dossier explicitly says that the doctor doesn't know if her condition is genetic.

Benign tumors are successfully treated today. In 2157 medicine has allowed has lifted the person from dead (commander Shepard, Mass Effect Universe). Really barreness - such impracticable problem?

I want Miranda's infertility gone!

Damn it, I am in favor, with both hands!

[fongiel24]

Axestone wrote...

Benign tumors are successfully treated today. In 2157 medicine has allowed has lifted the person from dead (commander Shepard, Mass Effect Universe). Really barreness - such impracticable problem?

Depends on the size and shape of the tumour and where it's located. Sometimes it's better just to leave it alone.

Isn't ME2 set in 2185?

[tommyt_1994]

fongiel24 wrote...

Axestone wrote...

Benign tumors are successfully treated today. In 2157 medicine has allowed has lifted the person from dead (commander Shepard, Mass Effect Universe). Really barreness - such impracticable problem?

Depends on the size and shape of the tumour and where it's located. Sometimes it's better just to leave it alone.

Isn't ME2 set in 2185?

Exactly <_<, and apparently my lack of knowledge in the field of biology actually benefits me when it comes to Mass effect. I'm blind to most of the biology incompetence on Bioware's part. 

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 29 octobre 2010 - 02:04 .

[Axestone]

Isn't ME2 set in 2185?

Has got confused... ;-)

Depends on the size and shape of the tumour and where it's located. Sometimes it's better just to leave it alone.

And if a tumor malignant? All the same it is improbable that barreness of Miranda is incurable. I at all didn't expect that BioWare "will award" to her such illness. =/

[Skyline_Stanza]

You people speculate on the most interesting things about Miranda, it's ridiculous. I love it.



I've a question to ask of the Miranda lovers. Given her views on the world around her and the people in it, how would Miranda act around the other squadmates? Jack's kind of a given, but the rest I'm a little stumped on. Any sort of feedback you could give would be great. An example would be what would Miranda thinks of Garrus or Grunt or Thane or Zaeed?

[Mondo47]

You'd think a plasmic ovarian disorder would be child's play to tinker with nearly two hundred years into the future... oh well

I've touched on this before, and I just ask you bear with me while I explain this one, but I like the addition of infertility to Miranda. Speaking with some experience of fertility problems, while it is something exceptionally saddening to cope with, it's a very mortal problem. Miri, with all her beauty and intelligence and tweaks and upgrades, is brought right back down to reality by this. She's faster, sharper, keener, leonised (as in Ponce de Leon), but she's still just like any other one of us. There's a fly in the amber; sure, Miri can make mistakes because she's only human - regardless of the expectations she places on herself - but this is something much more tangible. She's anchored in female reality. It makes her so much easier to relate to for me; it gives her an issue I can understand, relate to, and sympathise with. It makes her human. No longer Woman-Plus... just Woman. And that I can feel for a lot more.

As hard-hearted as it may sound, it just adds to her. Thinking about her stalwart defense of her sister's life - so very grounded in normality despite her exceptional stock - this must be what Miranda would have wanted for herself; a normal life, loving parents, a life without unfair expecations or an ulterior motive behind her whole existance. The tragic addition of infertility makes Miranda just as normal as any other woman. It's something to take strength from, really - the fact she isn't some perfect vessel for her father's schemes... she's flawed. Ordinary. Just like all the rest of us. If this disorder had sprung from some glitch in her composition, she would have doubtlessly been discarded somewhere along the line (like Okeer's clones, the dead children in Teltin and the other sisters her father didn't keep - just to underline where Grunt, Jack and Miranda have so much in common)... so this could well be just a roll of the genetic dice coming up as snake eyes after years of sevens and elevens - her father couldn't make her what he wanted because she's not perfect. Just normal. A face in the crowd. As difficult as it might seem to take solace in, her infertility is a massive f*ck you to her father's agenda.

So, strange as it may be, I like this addition to her character. I also like the rather clinical and blunt-as-a-chisel way she has tried to scratch her itches in the dating website. Underneath the permafrost exterior, Miranda really is a normal, hot-blooded woman with desires. It's another anchor we can embrace from the character... anyone that thinks the idea of a woman wanting to have sex without the bother of relationships (be it because they interfere with work, she just doesn't handle them well, or she just doesn't care for them at that stage of her life) is totally out of touch with women, frankly. This isn't picket-fences, 1950's Western-World anymore - hell, it wasn't even like that then... suburbia would still have been rife with illicit and "socially-unacceptable" desires, because we're all human at the end of the day.

And because of all this, Miranda is a little closer to us than the heavens. To quote Okeer "I approve."