15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Axestone wrote...

Ieldra2

If Miranda is infertile, then no genetic attribute of her partner will change that. The idea of overcoming infertility by a partner's "superior" genetic template is nonsense. Also note that the medical report in the dossier comes after her experiments in extranet dating, and that the dossier explicitly says that the doctor doesn't know if her condition is genetic.

Benign tumors are successfully treated today. In 2157 medicine has allowed has lifted the person from dead (commander Shepard, Mass Effect Universe). Really barreness - such impracticable problem?

Of course not. I've said myself that I consider it curable. My answer was to stress that the idea that infertility can be overcome by a partner's superior genes is nonsense. The last sentence was in reply to the assumption that her condition is genetic.

I want Miranda's infertility gone!

Damn it, I am in favor, with both hands!

:)

[Ieldra]

Mondo47 wrote...
You'd think a plasmic ovarian disorder would be child's play to tinker with nearly two hundred years into the future... oh well

We tend to assume that it is reversible, and that part of the dossier is just badly researched.

I've touched on this before, and I just ask you bear with me while I explain this one, but I like the addition of infertility to Miranda. Speaking with some experience of fertility problems, while it is something exceptionally saddening to cope with, it's a very mortal problem. Miri, with all her beauty and intelligence and tweaks and upgrades, is brought right back down to reality by this. She's faster, sharper, keener, leonised (as in Ponce de Leon), but she's still just like any other one of us. There's a fly in the amber; sure, Miri can make mistakes because she's only human - regardless of the expectations she places on herself - but this is something much more tangible. She's anchored in female reality. It makes her so much easier to relate to for me; it gives her an issue I can understand, relate to, and sympathise with. It makes her human. No longer Woman-Plus... just Woman. And that I can feel for a lot more.

I don't deny the increased empathy potential, but
(1) I like the woman-plus potential for the transhumanism angle it gives her story. That would be destroyed, or at least delayed to the next generation (since I think she could create children the same way she was made herself regardless of any medical problem), should her infertility prove irreversible. I want her flaws to be of a kind that doesn't make her unviable. I *want* that genetically improved but fully functional human woman 2.0, not necessarily as Shepard's partner, but I want her to exist in the ME universe. I think that her father did something desirable when he made her genetic template, even if it was offset by how he treated her later, and it was done for all the wrong reasons. 
(2) This is a total fubar for those players who like to imagine their Shepards having children with Miranda in future.

As hard-hearted as it may sound, it just adds to her. Thinking about her stalwart defense of her sister's life - so very grounded in normality despite her exceptional stock - this must be what Miranda would have wanted for herself; a normal life, loving parents, a life without unfair expecations or an ulterior motive behind her whole existance. The tragic addition of infertility makes Miranda just as normal as any other woman. It's something to take strength from, really - the fact she isn't some perfect vessel for her father's schemes...

It's something to take strength from? That's a really cynical thing to say to someone with her problem. In RL, people who say such things always make me go up the wall instantly. A flaw is not a virtue. Period. It's undesirable. People want it gone.
As for taking it as a sign that she's escaped her father, it has been speculated that her father put it in on purpose to keep control of his dynasty (though I don't believe that). And for being more than a vessel of her father's plans: at the end of her loyalty mission, she already says she's her own person, that her father didn't succeed in turning her into whatever he wanted. She didn't need another problem, and definitely not this one.

Apart from that, I don't subscribe to the school of thought that somemust be normal and fundamentally flawed to be likeable. I was always drawn to extraordinary characters, those who are symbols of overcoming human limits instead of taking them as what fate has given them.

I also like the rather clinical and blunt-as-a-chisel way she has tried to scratch her itches in the dating website. Underneath the permafrost exterior, Miranda really is a normal, hot-blooded woman with desires. It's another anchor we can embrace from the character... anyone that thinks the idea of a woman wanting to have sex without the bother of relationships (be it because they interfere with work, she just doesn't handle them well, or she just doesn't care for them at that stage of her life) is totally out of touch with women, frankly. This isn't picket-fences, 1950's Western-World anymore - hell, it wasn't even like that then... suburbia would still have been rife with illicit and "socially-unacceptable" desires, because we're all human at the end of the day.

Here I agree with you. I think the dating excerpts are over-the-top and silly, but behind it is a completely understandable behaviour.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[Elyvern]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

Elyvern wrote.
 Making her blonde would honestly scream "racial purity" to me given the amount of qualification in the novels about the general characteristics of human populations in ME. And race is definitely the most offensive, not to mention baseless, criterion for genetic superiority.

I can only shake at that comment...

I think I was running on exhaustion fumes when I wrote that. But still, why do you feel that way? 

[Mondo47]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As hard-hearted as it may sound, it just adds to her. Thinking about her stalwart defense of her sister's life - so very grounded in normality despite her exceptional stock - this must be what Miranda would have wanted for herself; a normal life, loving parents, a life without unfair expecations or an ulterior motive behind her whole existance. The tragic addition of infertility makes Miranda just as normal as any other woman. It's something to take strength from, really - the fact she isn't some perfect vessel for her father's schemes...

It's something to take strength from? That's a really cynical thing to say to someone with her problem. In RL, people who say such things always make me go up the wall instantly. A flaw is not a virtue. Period. It's undesirable. People want it gone.
As for taking it as a sign that she's escaped her father, it has been speculated that her father put it in on purpose to keep control of his dynasty (though I don't believe that). And for being more than a vessel of her father's plans: at the end of her loyalty mission, she already says she's her own person, that her father didn't succeed in turning her into whatever he wanted. She didn't need another problem, and definitely not this one.

Like I say, my perspective is a hard on to identify with, but believe me, I'm no trying to push buttons. I agree with you entirely there that there's (to me at least) no way that the fertility problem could really be engineered; I mean, what good is a dynasty that only has one generation in it? He had to have wanted her to have more offspring at some point in the future, but that's all they'll have been - offspring. Not children. Little more than a means to an end, to ensuring his immortality. That's why it fits in my head - you kinda snipped my line in half before I got to my conclusion there - because if she'd been "imperfect" at inception or early development (note that I'm using terms more fitting of a science project than an actual life) he'd have started over. While she might be her own person, this really is an indellible mark of her father's failure to craft her into exactly what he desired. He lost. She won. It's not a thing to want to happen to anyone, but it is something that some cold comfort can be taken from - largely because I do not buy that it wouldn't be treatable in the slightest... surely it would require little more than a cloning of the effected organs and a surgical implantation procedure. Even if the problem resurfaced in the future, she'd be prepared for it and able to circumvent it at an earlier stage. If Cerberus can reverse death, I would be very, very surprised if no medic could solve this problem. It's add up to a plothole you couldn't shove Sovereign through.

And as I said, this is an issue I have some personal experience with - I'd not make light of how hard it is to deal with as a real problem, only what solace Miranda can take from it insofar as her father's agenda.

[jtav]

Ieldra, I agree with you on "draw strength from it." Medical conditions may be part of a person's identity. I've been living with mine long enough that I'd have to relearn how to function day-to-day if it were suddenly cured. I don't regard it as character building, though, and it always irritated me to hear those speeches. I doubt Miranda's infertility inspires those sorts of mixed feelings in her.



There's a certain twisted logic in the infertility, if you believe her creation was immoral. It frustrates Lawson's attempts to create Human 2.0 which would be a fitting and ironic punishment. Except that Miranda bears none of the blame for how she came into the world. For her, it's nothing less than a massive injustice.

[Errol Dnamyx]

I think Bioware wanted to give every LI a certain problem, that Shepard and the LI have to overcome together (Ashleys family history, Jacks past, Thanes disease). I don't like the delivery of the information either, but it has the potential to make her character more interesting, depending on how BW decides to deal with it in the future.

Elyvern: I just don't understand, why it would scream "racial purity" to you, if Miranda had blonde hair. I think people are too concerned about political correctness these days and interpret too much into unimportant design decisions.

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 29 octobre 2010 - 04:39 .

[Elyvern]

What irks me is:

she's already struggling in the attempt to be more human (see her interactions with Oriana) and here, another potential chance where she could actually learn to become a parent, to experience the trials and tribulations of having a child is taken away from her. While she becomes humanised in the understanding that even someone like her isn't immune to the vagaries of fate and must confront problems universal to the rest of the human population, this also takes away one big chance for a psychological and emotional journey that more than anyone else, is more valuable for her. It's just too big a trade off.

And for people who think that she's "miss perfect who has everything her own way" and all, have they forgotten Oriana was created to replace her and that she knows that fact? That she doesn't let something so damaging to her sense of self-worth override her innate empathy and love for Oriana has to be emphasised.

[Elyvern]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

I think Bioware wanted to give every LI a certain problem, that Shepard and the LI have to overcome together (Ashleys family history, Jacks past, Thanes disease). I don't like the delivery of the information either, but it has the potential to make her character more interesting, depending on how BW decides to deal with it in the future.

Unfortunately, Garrus, Jacob and Kaiden aren't presented with those problems. If I were to see it from your POV, then yes, I can admit that Thane's impending demise can be an issue. But the trouble with physical medical problems is solving them involves a on/off switch. Either you're cured, or you're not. Either you die or you don't. And if everything can eventually be cured, it stands in danger of becoming a farcical vehicle. (oh, I know he won't die, there will be a miracle cure) I don't discount the emotional trauma that comes to struggling and reconciling with such conditions, but I really don't see Bioware going that direction at all, especially with Miranda's infertility. Can you really think of a scenario while fighting the reapers that Shepard and Miranda would be talking about it? That's just so out of place and time-inappropriate.

Elyvern: I just don't understand, why it would scream "racial purity" to you, if Miranda had blonde hair. I think people are too concerned about political correctness these days and interpret too much into unimportant design decisions.

Believe me, it was something that never crossed my mind. But I just came off reading all 3 ME novels where issues of racial characteristics and the rarity of certain traits kept popping up, and how those traits makes someone special because people's perspective of that particular person is changed (Kahlee Sanders). This is then followed by along with alot of (unneccessary) qualifying assertions saying "but, oh, it doesn't matter". Well, if it doesn't why does Drew keep bringing it up?!

At any rate, it felt like I had that point sledgehammered into my head so many times that I couldn't stop drawing comparisons to Miranda and her original design conceptions. Has got nothing to do with political correctness, but a reaction to authorial intent because of the bludgeoning way the issue is highlighted.

[Ieldra]

Mondo47 wrote...
Like I say, my perspective is a hard on to identify with, but believe me, I'm no trying to push buttons.

I didn't take it that way, but nonetheless it did push a button (no worry though, I can stay civil even so): I'm funamentally optimistic, and I think that flaws and limits, physical or otherwise, are something to overcome, not to identify with beyond what's necessary to live with it, and more importantly, I believe they can be overcome. That's one reason why I like Sci-Fi scenarios, especially if there are grounds for optimism even in a universe as dark as ME's. That Miranda is beyond normal human limits in some ways, that's something desirable, not something to take away. I think we have have a fundamental values dissonance here.

I agree with you entirely there that there's (to me at least) no way that the fertility problem could really be engineered; I mean, what good is a dynasty that only has one generation in it? He had to have wanted her to have more offspring at some point in the future, but that's all they'll have been - offspring. Not children. Little more than a means to an end, to ensuring his immortality. That's why it fits in my head - you kinda snipped my line in half before I got to my conclusion there - because if she'd been "imperfect" at inception or early development (note that I'm using terms more fitting of a science project than an actual life) he'd have started over. While she might be her own person, this really is an indellible mark of her father's failure to craft her into exactly what he desired.

Actually, there is a good reason why Miranda's father would want to limit her fertility: what's the use of a dynasty, if what makes the dynasty special dilutes through mating with normal humans? The whole idea of a genetic dynasty is ultimately unfeasible, unless you can ensure that it stays special over time. A progressive infertility that proceeds unless some medical steps are taken to prevent it would be just the means to do that. I only don't believe it was engineered because the method is so unreliable.

He lost. She won. It's not a thing to want to happen to anyone, but it is something that some cold comfort can be taken from - largely because I do not buy that it wouldn't be treatable in the slightest... surely it would require little more than a cloning of the effected organs and a surgical implantation procedure. Even if the problem resurfaced in the future, she'd be prepared for it and able to circumvent it at an earlier stage. If Cerberus can reverse death, I would be very, very surprised if no medic could solve this problem. It's add up to a plothole you couldn't shove Sovereign through.

I can see where you're going at, but I can't see it that way. Not for now, anyway. And yes, I also think it's a reversible condition. If it's genetic, gene therapy should be able to prevent it from coming back.
All that, though, doesn't change that I resent Bioware for giving Miranda a serious problem where other characters got funny little side-issues.
Not that all this changes what I think and feel about her one bit. She's still the most awesome and interesting character in the ME universe. Sometimes I think I'd like her as a protagonist, but seeing how Shepard mutated into steamroll-over-everything-without-showing-emotion SuperShep without getting significantly smarter in the process, perhaps it's better she's not.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:48 .

[jtav]

I'd like it if they could focus on adapting to the condition, but like Elyvern I don't really see them doing that. I suspect it will never be touched on again, or magically cured in an epilogue. I'd like to see something where a Shepard who wants kids deals with finding out, but that's better suited to fanfic.

[Ryzaki]

oh good I see I'm not the only one facepalming at how stupid Shepard can be.



How Shep can be so bloody dumb at times astounds me.



That said...urgh the infertility irks me too. Was it really necessary? She already was a human, even more so by her experiences with Niket and Oriana.

[Errol Dnamyx]

Elyvern wrote...
At any rate, it felt like I had that point sledgehammered into my head so many times that I couldn't stop drawing comparisons to Miranda and her original design conceptions. Has got nothing to do with political correctness, but a reaction to authorial intent because of the bludgeoning way the issue is highlighted.

Oh well, that clears it up. ;)I have to admit I never read any of the novels myself. (and I'm not planning to read them either)

[Ieldra]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...
Elyvern: I just don't understand, why it would scream "racial purity" to you, if Miranda had blonde hair. I think people are too concerned about political correctness these days and interpret too much into unimportant design decisions.

If she were blonde and Scandinavian, she'd have too many traits to avoid association with N*zi ideology. It's possible Bioware intended that association when they made her concept, since she's also associated with a human supremacist group. Somehwat like Elsa Schneider transplanted into the ME universe.
It's a sad thing, but N*zi ideology, has really tainted collective consciousness in the western world through the incredible scale of the atrocities resulting from it. Many things associated with it have lost innocence. The problem is when you have too many compatible traits on a character, instead of having to make that association voluntarily, it comes up automatically and you must work to suppress it.
So I'm glad she's dark-haired and Australian, not only for me. Imagine the game would have given her detractors a jumping off point to sling the epithet "N*zi b*tch" at her (not that this hasn't come up occasionally). It doesn't bear thinking about.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 octobre 2010 - 05:44 .

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...
oh good I see I'm not the only one facepalming at how stupid Shepard can be.

How Shep can be so bloody dumb at times astounds me.

Have you read my thread Why I don't like ME2's Commander Shepard....?

[jtav]

I think they must have intended the association originally. Look at the concept art of her in her loyalty outfit. It works for a villain, but not for a sympathetic character like Miranda. It's probably a good thing they changed it, even if it might have been interesting to subvert it later. I suspect that's why they made her speak approvingly of asari culture, When Jacob makes a comment about the asari using their power and money to build bars, she responds humans would do the same. She's a cynic, but not a xenophobe.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

I think they must have intended the association originally. Look at the concept art of her in her loyalty outfit. It works for a villain, but not for a sympathetic character like Miranda. It's probably a good thing they changed it, even if it might have been interesting to subvert it later. I suspect that's why they made her speak approvingly of asari culture, When Jacob makes a comment about the asari using their power and money to build bars, she responds humans would do the same. She's a cynic, but not a xenophobe.

I'm definitely glad for the change. And actually, I'm also pleasantly surprised that Miranda escapes the taint of racism (xenophobia) that plagues Ashley. Given that her engineered origins and her association with a human supremacist group are far better grounds for such an accusation. I suppose Bioware really felt the lashback from many people's interpretation of Ashley's motivations, but they were still in danger of having that issue rear its head again with Miranda. All in all, I suppose it's a good thing they succeeded in balancing that tricky act.  

Edit: when does she retort Jacob with that? I don't recall seeing it.

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:35 .

[jtav]

Take Miranda and Jacob with you to the Eternity bar and use the "talk to Jacob option"

[Elyvern]

Thanks. I see why I've missed it now. Jacob stays in the ship for me after I get Garrus/Zaeed to replace him in Omega. ^^

[philiposophy]

Are Miranda and Jacob the only squadmates to share those "Talk to..." spots?

I remember on Omega too there's a bit when Jacob expresses disgust at how those living conditions are allowed. Miranda shoots him down with "You don't know? Or you don't want to know?"

[SmokeyPSD]

I experienced a hilarious automatic convo one between garrus and tali. Garrus asked do u miss our escalator conversations and it went on a bit from there with tali getting stroppy with garrus trying to learn about her culture while we were walking around.

[jtav]

Several other squadmates will chime in at various times. Have a look at the unique dialogue section of the wiki.



I suspect Miranda would espouse something like Ashley's bear analogy, actually. Aliens will only cooperate with humans as long as it's in their interest to do so. However, the same is true of humanity. She'd see it as part of organic nature, and therefore it's always best to prepare for a day when you're supposed friends might stab you in the back for political gain.

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

I suspect Miranda would espouse something like Ashley's bear analogy, actually. Aliens will only cooperate with humans as long as it's in their interest to do so. However, the same is true of humanity. She'd see it as part of organic nature, and therefore it's always best to prepare for a day when you're supposed friends might stab you in the back for political gain.

There's a pretty big difference between Miranda saying this and Ashley saying it. Ashley's distrust towards aliens is the product of a combination of her family's history with the turians and her own lack of exposure to aliens (due to her being confined to backwater garrisons instead of serving on Alliance ships). Ashley's opinion is thus largely based on ignorant prejudice.

Unlike Ashley, Miranda has actually seen how the galaxy works. She's likely seen the different alien powers screw each other and humanity and have humanity screw them in turn. Miranda has also encountered and interacted with enough aliens to realize how human they are in their motivations. Miranda's views would thus be based on her experiences.

This is why, even if Miranda espoused similar attitudes to Ashley's, I wouldn't consider her to be a racist but I would still consider Ashley to be a racist. Fortunately for me, as a Miranda fan, Miranda has a surprisingly openminded view of aliens so this issue doesn't even come up.

[jtav]

I suspect Miranda's views could be summed up as "all people are equally bad, regardless of species." Cynicism about the trustworthiness of your supposed allies isn't a bad thing to have in her line of work. She also seems to really like asari culture and admire the STG. I doubt this would be the case if she were genuinely prejudiced against aliens.

[fongiel24]

I have a feeling that Miranda's general attitude in her work is to distrust everyone equally, regardless of species, politics, or gender. Racism likely doesn't factor into it very much, if at all. I would actually describe Miranda as being almost "colourblind" in terms of her views of other races.



Ashley's comments seem to strongly suggest that she distrusts aliens simply for being... aliens. She seems to have a much less sophisticated and more simplistic view of the galaxy than Miranda does.

[jtav]

I agree with you. Miranda's only bias seems to be trusting Niket well after it should've been obvious that something was up. The only time she says anything remotely questionable is in Redemption when she refers to Liara and Feron having bumpy foreheads. Given the general quality of Redemption's characterization, I'm not inclined to take it seriously.



One thing I do find odd is that the SB's dossier claims she's obsessed with human dominance. I don't see any evidence of that in-game, but none of the other squadmate descriptions seem to be as noticeably off as hers.