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[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

One thing I do find odd is that the SB's dossier claims she's obsessed with human dominance. I don't see any evidence of that in-game, but none of the other squadmate descriptions seem to be as noticeably off as hers.

I guess if this was loosely interpreted it might still fit. Miranda didn't join Cerberus to help the galaxy as a whole, she joined Cerberus to help advance the cause of humanity. Even if she's not a racist, she is devoted to Cerberus' stated goal of helping humanity get a leg up on everyone else. This may or may not include taking direct action against aliens. In Miranda's case, I suspect she would interpret it as not requiring direct action against alien powers but other Cerberus agents might tend towards the opposite interpretation. 

[aeetos21]

Well she chose Cerberus because for one it could help her keep Oriana safe and two she "wanted to find meaning" for her life. In a some ways she is like Grunt in that: "Until I find a reason of my own one fight is as good as any other."



However she isn't some week old Krogan this is a woman in her late 30s by the time ME2 shows up (if you follow the Mass Effect Wiki at least) who has had time to really develop her own viewpoints and opinions. At heart though she always goes back to her genetics, the golem on her shoulder, so when Shepard finally slaps her up the head and shows her just how far TIM will take things and just how easily replaced she is Miranda stops doing her hero worship for TIM and considers him to be not much better than her father.



So I'm really looking forward to ME3 in that we can see how she will view things. I doubt she will ever come around to the Council or the Alliance - and for good reason IMO. She's a lot like Jacob in that respect. As it is right now? I know this is very far thinking but I bet its an idea good enough for ME3 - I bet a lot of ME3 will be Shepard ensuring his/her allies have gotten the memo and that they're ready for the reapers. The Council (in their forever ignorance) will see this as an act of war and one rogue spectre trying to pull a Saren: "He's recruiting Krogan! Geth! Rachni! Even those damn Quarians are backing him up! He's a threat to galactic stability and must be dealt with!"



But that's a different story...

[Ieldra]

aeetos21 wrote...
Well she chose Cerberus because for one it could help her keep Oriana safe and two she "wanted to find meaning" for her life. In a some ways she is like Grunt in that: "Until I find a reason of my own one fight is as good as any other."

I don't that impression. She does defend Cerberus' goals as she sees them, and she disagrees with the rampant xenophobia within it's ranks. She definitely has her own opinion and thinks "advancement of humanity", again as she sees it, is a goal worthy of working and fighting for.

However she isn't some week old Krogan this is a woman in her late 30s by the time ME2 shows up (if you follow the Mass Effect Wiki at least) who has had time to really develop her own viewpoints and opinions. At heart though she always goes back to her genetics, the golem on her shoulder, so when Shepard finally slaps her up the head and shows her just how far TIM will take things and just how easily replaced she is Miranda stops doing her hero worship for TIM and considers him to be not much better than her father.

I don't see that. For one, Shepard never "slaps her up the head", and I wouldn't forgive him if he did. TIM does also not threaten to replace Miranda, she asks if he would replace her if she defied him. And all that only happens if you destroy the base, which many don't. The golem on her shoulder is her father's ghost, and she's fought it all her life, with her loyalty mission being that latest instance. TIM has nothing to do with it.
BTW, she's 35 officially.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:10 .

[Ryzaki]

...That evil slasher smile gave me enough reason to destroy the base. It's like Shep's rape face times 1000. Do not want.



But yeah Miranda pretty much quits if you do. Which I thought was her crowning moment of awesome.



I thought a majority of people destroyed the base?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
One thing I do find odd is that the SB's dossier claims she's obsessed with human dominance. I don't see any evidence of that in-game, but none of the other squadmate descriptions seem to be as noticeably off as hers.

That's easy to put off as a mistake. Even big intelligence networks can be wrong sometimes. If you only know of her actions and have never heard her speak about her goals you could come to that conclusion, while we who have spoken with her know that she's not a xenophobe and isn't even obsessively patriotic. The idea of Miranda being obsessed with anything is ludicrious in the first place.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...
...That evil slasher smile gave me enough reason to destroy the base. It's like Shep's rape face times 1000. Do not want.

And exactly that is the wrong motivation to destroy the base. The decision should not be made based on emotions. The Reapers are too big a threat for impulsive decisions.

But yeah Miranda pretty much quits if you do. Which I thought was her crowning moment of awesome.

I like that there is an option to make her resign. But I don't like that her resignation is tied to a decision I consider stupid, displaying an attitude similar to the Council's in not being able to see the bigger threat and wasting one's time stomping lesser evils.

I thought a majority of people destroyed the base?

Possibly. But that doesn't make it the right one:P. Since this is somewhat OT here, may I refer you to the Collector Base decision threads. The first post in the linked thread by chri025657 sums up most people's reasons for keeping it nicely.

BTW, I like to imagine that Miranda would help sharing the knowledge gained from the base with everyone regardless of TIM's wishes. I don't like Cerberus to have the thing. But I like losing the chance of closing a technological gap that leaves us at a disadvantage in a war of survival very much less.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 octobre 2010 - 08:08 .

[Alessar]

I keep the base, just makes more sense with LotSB, why would Shepard be frustrated with Cerberus if he had already quit, makes more sense that he'd keep the base and be with Cerberus, makes that dialogue flow a bit nicer imo.

And thats not the sole reason I keep it, I'm just saying the dialogue with Liara in your cabin seems to flow better.

Modifié par Alessar, 30 octobre 2010 - 08:12 .

[Prudii Aden]

Previous post scrapped.

What are the odds of not romancing Miranda this time around I wonder? Anyone willing to take bets?

Modifié par Prudii Aden, 30 octobre 2010 - 11:51 .

[Ieldra]

Prudii Aden wrote...
What are the odds of not romancing Miranda this time around I wonder? Anyone willing to take bets?

You're playing a maleShep? No deal

You know, whatever I think of the other LI options for maleSheps in general, regardless of whether I like them or not, or how my opinion may have changed over time, they're just not romance material for any of my Shepards. Except for Liara, but I can romance her with my femSheps.

[jtav]

I destroy the base. Pure metagaming, but I know what kind of story I'm in.



Anyone want to take bets on me being able to resist this time? I've yet to romance Tali or Jack to completion. This bothers me. I don't usually play the sort of Shepards who like her since they're Paragons who dislike/distrust/want to destroy Cerberus, but Miranda is the only official option I've been able to complete for MaleShep.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I destroy the base. Pure metagaming, but I know what kind of story I'm in.

I'm contrary in that. I'm absolutely allergic to games - or anything and anyone, in fact - prescribing a morality for me. The more the game presents one decision as the right one, the more I'm determined to choose the other one - if one of them doesn't sound stupid to me, so it's even worse in ME2. I keep one destroyed-the-base game for a male and female Shepard for metagaming purposes, but that's all.

Anyone want to take bets on me being able to resist this time? I've yet to romance Tali or Jack to completion. This bothers me. I don't usually play the sort of Shepards who like her since they're Paragons who dislike/distrust/want to destroy Cerberus, but Miranda is the only official option I've been able to complete for MaleShep.

I don't bet against not being able to resist Miranda.

A few pages back, I've outlined a method to play any one romance within a time of 20 minutes and select the one you want to keep. Would that be enough for you, or do you want to keep a Shepard with any one LI?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 octobre 2010 - 03:33 .

[jtav]

I've actually used that method on Miranda and it increased my enjoyment of the romance. Most of my issues boil down to the tone of the elevator scene being extremely jarring in the wake of the Collector attack. If the "don't die" scene occurs immediately before the sex scene, I don't find her coyness as jarring because it's clearly fake. I prefer my Shepards to stay with one LI. Thane, Miranda, and Liara have derailed those plans at different times. Not sure which remaining LI to try first.



I can be contrary, but not about that. I just pair Miranda with an asari. 11,000 words and counting. I have to be crazy.And yes, I'm still working.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...
And exactly that is the wrong motivation to destroy the base. The decision should not be made based on emotions. The Reapers are too big a threat for impulsive decisions.

Well the threat of indoctrination and Cerberus casualty rates whenever they investigate weapons that's not Shepard played big parts too.

I like that there is an option to make her resign. But I don't like that her resignation is tied to a decision I consider stupid, displaying an attitude similar to the Council's in not being able to see the bigger threat and wasting one's time stomping lesser evils.

Not necessary. There are far more reasons to destroy the base that are quite intelligent and valid. (Of course they're in the CB therad). I find people who call either decision "stupid" are often not looking at both decisions objectively.

Possibly. But that doesn't make it the right one:P. Since this is somewhat OT here, may I refer you to the Collector Base decision threads. The first post in the linked thread by chri025657 sums up most people's reasons for keeping it nicely.

I know. That doesn't make keeping it the right decision either...

BTW, I like to imagine that Miranda would help sharing the knowledge gained from the base with everyone regardless of TIM's wishes. I don't like Cerberus to have the thing. But I like losing the chance of closing a technological gap that leaves us at a disadvantage in a war of survival very much less.

I doubt TIM would allow it though. Frankly if one's going to keep the base I'd keep all the important bits for myself and give everyone else the leftovers. (If that).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 octobre 2010 - 05:57 .

[Ieldra]

Long time no screenshots...

[jtav]

Ieldra, you are not making my forthcoming "leave Miranda on the ship and romance Jack" game any easier.

[Prudii Aden]

Just because I've been playing ME2 recently - assuming she's of the mind to do so, do you think that it would amuse Miranda to get married to a War Hero Shep at the Sheperd Memorial Plaza on Elysium?

[Elyvern]

I've raised that point before and it seemed like the regulars here are polarised down the middle. Some of us think she wouldn't care for formalised but meaningless institutions like marriage, while others feel that she would, or at least they'd want her to care about it. I'm of the former camp, although again, I'm a little taken aback at how marriage seems so prevalent in the ME novels (which concentrates on human culture to a big extent) despite no indications of what other implications an institution like this has in the ME universe. Alimony issues does seem to be one of the concerns, but a child born out of wedlock wouldn't carry any stigma, the way it is increasingly so in western countries currently. If there are no substantial or quantifiable benefits to marriage, why would it be so commonplace in the future?

Modifié par Elyvern, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:34 .

[jtav]

I picture her as the type to get married, if she even got married in a quiet civil ceremony. Spend the money saved on the wedding on the honeymoon instead.

[fongiel24]

I think by the time of ME, marriage is just a romantic public gesture to show commitment to a long term relationship between two people. Some people like it, others think it's a meaningless anachronism. Having at least a common law marriage might still have tax implications though, so some people might make their decision on whether or not to get married on that.

Modifié par fongiel24, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:55 .

[Jebel Krong]

fongiel24 wrote...

I think by the time of ME, marriage is just a romantic public gesture to show commitment to a long term relationship between two people. Some people like it, others think it's a meaningless anachronism. Having at least a common law marriage might still have tax implications though, so some people might make their decision on whether or not to get married on that.

oh you're just so romantic...!

[jtav]

Miranda is the type of person who'd get married to save on paperwork. She's capable of romanticism and extravagance but I think she's more likely to express it by buying her partner the perfect gift after extensive research, etc.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Ieldra, you are not making my forthcoming "leave Miranda on the ship and romance Jack" game any easier.

*Ieldra reads this with a Cheshire Cat grin on his face*

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
I think by the time of ME, marriage is just a romantic public gesture to show commitment to a long term relationship between two people. Some people like it, others think it's a meaningless anachronism.

Marriage is actually a socially complex institution. You need to consider all of its aspects to know if Miranda is the type to marry:
(1) For the couple: a ritual to affirm commitment to each other. Mostly emotional. How you value it depends on personality.
(2) For the community, a sign that these two are off limits. Entry into the list of officially sanctioned couples. Has mostly moral implications.
(3) Before the law: some form of responsibility for each other. Inheritance, the right to make some decisions for the other. Tax benefits probably dependent on children, not inherent.
(4) For the religious a sacred affirmation before some god or suchlike.

I think Miranda would be split on (1), on a subconscious level appreciating the emotional value of the ritual while seeing it as irrevelant and a sign of weakness at the same time. She wouldn't care at all about (2) and (4), and with regard to (3) it would depend on matters of practicality and local law.
How would she decide? I think saying that she'd like it can be justified just as easily as saying that she wouldn't. As long as nobody brings (2) or (4) above into it or makes her go all teary-eyed about it,  it's IC.

@Elyvern:
Like many space operas, ME has the unfortunate tendency not to consider the evolution of social institutions. At least Bioware seems to be somehow aware of the problem, while Karpyshyn blithely assumes everything will stay the same. It's one of bigger flaws a Sci-Fi story can have.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 octobre 2010 - 08:51 .

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

*Ieldra reads this with a Cheshire Cat grin on his face*

I thought you might. Someday I'll ubtagle my complicated feelings for her. If ever there was a character I should hate, she's it. And yet I don't. Obviously. But I create the sort of Shepards who do.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Marriage is actually a socially complex institution. You need to consider all of its aspects to know if Miranda is the type to marry:
(1) For the couple: a ritual to affirm commitment to each other. Mostly emotional. How you value it depends on personality.
(2) For the community, a sign that these two are off limits. Entry into the list of officially sanctioned couples. Has mostly moral implications.
(3) Before the law: some form of responsibility for each other. Inheritance, the right to make some decisions for the other. Tax benefits probably dependent on children, not inherent.
(4) For the religious a sacred affirmation before some god or suchlike.

 

Yay, pithy topic to crunch my teeth into. I'd think she would discount 4 unequivoably. I agree that she would be sitting on the fence about 1. But I'd actually see her taking 2 seriously, but not for the moral implications behind it. For me, it goes back to that romance conflict line where she says "Everyone needs to know you're mine." Now, I can understand that the way that line is phrased would go against her tendency for privacy, but I also see it as a sign of her possessive nature, and also the way she'd want her partner to view her. For her, a serious relationship would be a case of "It's everything or nothing". And we know how Shepard can be such a woman-magnet, whether he intentionally acts upon it or not. An official marriage would hopefully and tastefully deter interested parties from hitting on him without Miranda needing to put her foot down (which she'd probably hate having to do in the first place).   

Edit: for the exact quote

Modifié par Elyvern, 31 octobre 2010 - 03:47 .