15168 réponses à ce sujet

[tommyt_1994]

I edited the first paragraph, the third paragraph, and the paragraph where it changed to Shepard's perspective (I took that out but added something else). I think the changes are for the better, it has a more natural feel to it now I believe.

Getting Miranda's, as well as Shepard's voice down is difficult. When it comes to Shepard, I have to close my eyes and think Could I imagine Mark Meer saying this in a monotone voice? Nah, but that's only because Bioware doesn't want Shepard to show any kind of emotion. That's really something I wish Bioware would implement more of, Shepard showing that he is indeed human.

Getting Miranda's voice down can only really come from repeatedly hearing her lines in-game and just picking up on which words she does and doesn't use and then trying to imagine Yvonne reading those lines.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 31 octobre 2010 - 02:31 .

[jtav]

Miranda isn't arrogant. I'd even call her self-loathing.



Akuze has always been the elephant in the living room for me because my Shepard is a Sole Survivor. I have a hard time creating one who doesn't want to throw her out the nearest airlock for defending them. She's the symbol of every devil's bargain he's making during ME2, the betrayal of his team and the fact that he's working for the very thing he should destroy. I wonder how she would treat a Sole Survivor who at least tried to be professional. Would she apologize on Cerberus' behalf for what was done in their name? How would she talk to him about it?

[Crysis I]

shes the best female character end of

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

Miranda isn't arrogant. I'd even call her self-loathing.

Akuze has always been the elephant in the living room for me because my Shepard is a Sole Survivor. I have a hard time creating one who doesn't want to throw her out the nearest airlock for defending them. She's the symbol of every devil's bargain he's making during ME2, the betrayal of his team and the fact that he's working for the very thing he should destroy. I wonder how she would treat a Sole Survivor who at least tried to be professional. Would she apologize on Cerberus' behalf for what was done in their name? How would she talk to him about it?

I think she would actually try to avoid bringing it up as much as possible. If Shepard won't talk about it, she won't either. She tends to be somewhat direct in her mannerisms and she's probably well aware of this. Miranda likely isn't all that well-versed at apologies. If Shepard did bring it up, I think Miranda would be smart enough not to defend Cerberus here. Considering how important Shepard is to the mission and to Cerberus, she would probably suck up her pride and at least try to apologize.

[Elyvern]

It makes me wonder given that in a paragon-playthrough Miranda resigns from Cerberus, and I suspect the lashback about Cerberus and all the atrocities they've done will be exposed one day eventually. Would she ever regret being a part of such an organisation? How much will it come back to haunt her?

I just read another thread where it says all the ME2 squad, apart from some exceptions, are all society outcasts. And to put it in very blunt terms, most of the ME verse inhabitants probably see her as a terrorist. What an interesting juxtaposition considering she's such a stickler for rules, but is intrinsically a rule-breaker.

[jtav]

It's part of why I have such a weird relationship with her. Objectively speaking, she belongs in jail and, from the way the Council talks, could be charged with treason. I think her willful blindness is something she'd regret and something she needs to atone for. I'd prefer she do so by fighting the Reapers and surviving, not in jail. I'd also prefer she have a life after that. She doesn't need to pay for the rest of her life.

[Elyvern]

Well, yes. Strictly speaking, before a court of law, it's likely she'd be incarcerated and put on trial. But I'd still think that although she may harbour regrets for being part of such an organisation, and would probably feel the sting of having a stigma like that attached to her for the rest of her life, I don't think Miranda if given a chance, would go back to change anything.

For good or for worse, the person that she is now is partly the result of her upbringing and Cerberus's grooming. Through those two agencies, she acquired her pragmatism and cynicism and they define her as well as saved her life. It would probably come as a shock to her when she gets to know Oriana better and realise that given a totally different set of circumstances, she could be an entirely different person all together.

[jtav]

I think she'd have mixed feelings. As you said, it informed her entire personality. I don't think she;d want to be like Oriana because it would mean being ignorant of certain things. And Miranda has done much to be proud of. Stopping batarian terrorists, raising Shepard from the dead. I do think she'd feel some guilt for allowing herself to be deluded about Cerberus, particularly of she got a look at the timeline the SB compiled. She'd complicit to some degree in their actions. She deserves some sort of punishment, I think, though not through legal means, Say, helping stop the Reapers and helping duplicate some of the Lazarus tech?

[Ieldra]

@jtav:
I'm adamantly against making her story an atonement or redemption story, even against interpreting possible future actions that way. I'm very much convinced she doesn't think in those terms. At all. And I would consider it character derailment if she suddenly started to do so.

What she would feel about being deluded by TIM is not guilt but anger. At herself, for not having seen what she could have seen. She'd tell herself to be more careful in future, but in the end she'd put that part of her life behind her like other mistakes she might have made.

Elyvern wrote...
Well, yes. Strictly speaking, before a court  of law, it's likely she'd be incarcerated and put on trial. But I'd
still think that although she may harbour regrets for being part of such an organisation, and would probably feel the sting of having a stigma like that attached to her for the rest of her life, I don't think Miranda if given a chance, would go back to change anything.  For good or for worse, the person that she is now is partly the result of her upbringing and Cerberus's grooming. Through those two agencies, she acquired her pragmatism and cynicism and they define her as well as saved her life. It would probably come as a shock to her when she gets to know Oriana better and realise that given a totally different set of circumstances, she could be an entirely different person all together.

A shock - do you think so? She already knows Oriana is different from her, more innocent, and she also knows that the darker aspects of life in the galaxy have shaped herself as they haven't shaped Oriana.

Apart from that, I agree with you. She is what she has become, and apart from some mistakes, it has served her well. She'll walk a slightly different path after resigning from Cerberus, but she won't agonize over old mistakes, and she'll keep most of her consequentialism, even if her opinion about what constitutes a necessity grim enough to justify certain actions might change. It's ironic that she'd be good Spectre material - while almost anyone with a need for such figures would likely not want her. That's one reason why I think she'd need her own organization.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 octobre 2010 - 06:12 .

[jtav]

Noted, Ieldra. I won't mention the idea again, except to say that I can hardly see her story is anything but a redemption story. I suspect my own ethics and highly negative view of Cerberus have much to do with this. My favorite character is someone I'd place as Lawful Evil on the alignment meter. Go figure.



I agree that she would make a good Spectre. I could even see the Council willing to overlook her "unsavory past connections" and making her a Spectre after the conclusion of ME3. Saving all life in the galaxy has to be good for something. Whether she would want that position is another question.

[tommyt_1994]

jtav wrote...

Noted, Ieldra. I won't mention the idea again, except to say that I can hardly see her story is anything but a redemption story. I suspect my own ethics and highly negative view of Cerberus have much to do with this. My favorite character is someone I'd place as Lawful Evil on the alignment meter. Go figure.

I agree that she would make a good Spectre. I could even see the Council willing to overlook her "unsavory past connections" and making her a Spectre after the conclusion of ME3. Saving all life in the galaxy has to be good for something. Whether she would want that position is another question.

I can't see Miranda wanting to be a Spectre. She already has a lot of the same responsibilities as Spectre's do and she doesn't have to answer to the Council, or complete their missions. That being said though, I think she would be a great Spectre if she decided to become one.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Noted, Ieldra. I won't mention the idea again, except to say that I can hardly see her story is anything but a redemption story. I suspect my own ethics and highly negative view of Cerberus have much to do with this. My favorite character is someone I'd place as Lawful Evil on the alignment meter. Go figure.

That I'm adamantly against it doesn't mean I'm unwilling to discuss it, so don't feel censored, please. My opposition to it also has a lot to do with my opposition to certain kinds of ethics (or rather, meta-ethics). But I do feel justified to phrase it strongly because I'm totally convinced Miranda wouldn''t see things in those terms, and changing that would make her a completely different person. Also, guilt by association is tricky. I don't think she would feel guilt for something she hasn't done personally, and I think she shouldn't. She's also unlikely to go over all her past actions looking for things to regret after she resigns from Cerberus. That's just not in her. Actually, I have a hard time imagining her feeling guilt at all that much. Regret, yes, but not guilt, except when someone she cares about is involved.

BTW, my view of Cerberus isn't much better than yours, but my reasons might be somewhat different: I don't accept that some of their methods are necessary, so they aren't justified. I'm also annoyed that every other scientific experiment is somehow accompanied by an atrocity in ME as if that were inevitable.

I agree that she would make a good Spectre. I could even see the Council willing to overlook her "unsavory past connections" and making her a Spectre after the conclusion of ME3. Saving all life in the galaxy has to be good for something. Whether she would want that position is another question.

Depends on how the Council acts in ME3, I think. She wouldn't work for an institution she doesn't respect.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...
A shock - do you think so? She already knows Oriana is different from her, more innocent, and she also knows that the darker aspects of life in the galaxy have shaped herself as they haven't shaped Oriana.

I think so, yes. Theoretical knowledge would fall in the face of visceral experience, especially if Oriana exhibits some mentality that she's is unable to personally reconcile with. This would probably be accompanied by a sense of wistfulness, of what could-have-been, if even for a brief moment before her pragmatism takes over.  

Apart from that, I agree with you. She is what she has become, and apart from some mistakes, it has served her well. She'll walk a slightly different path after resigning from Cerberus, but she won't agonize over old mistakes, and she'll keep most of her consequentialism, even if her opinion about what constitutes a necessity grim enough to justify certain actions might change. It's ironic that she'd be good Spectre material - while almost anyone with a need for such figures would likely not want her. That's one reason why I think she'd need her own organization.

She probably is good Spectre material even though skill-wise I don't think she's quite there yet. I think she needs more combat training and experience. Finesse is desirable, but when things go haywire, she'd need the ability to stand alone in an intense firefight against odds and win through use of armaments, brains and reflexes. N-7 training would probably be neccessary, and I think she'd probably disdain that kind of thing - too much military bravado and blind discipline involved.

[jtav]

Perhaps guilt is the wrong word. I doubt she would feel any guilt for any of the atrocities that we see, nor should she feel any excessive guilt for what amounts to remote material cooperation. Her real moral failing is/was gross, willful ignorance I'd like to see her acknowledge that she might have been wrong in that. I'm not interested in seeing her hand-wringing excessively, more in seeing her put her talents to better use and perhaps having her assist in putting an end to Cerberus. An apology for wanting.to put a control chip in Shep's head would be nice but is unlikely and not terribly important to me personally.

[Elyvern]

If you don't think she'd feel guilt for any of the atrocities we see, then how can her wilful ignorance be termed as a moral failing? At most, she'd recognise it as a character flaw, and may realise that she cannot go about the rest of her life thinking problems don't exist if she doesn't look too closely, but to attach moral implications to non-action, she would have to feel more deeply for the consequences of her deed in the first place.

[Ryzaki]

jtav wrote...

Perhaps guilt is the wrong word. I doubt she would feel any guilt for any of the atrocities that we see, nor should she feel any excessive guilt for what amounts to remote material cooperation. Her real moral failing is/was gross, willful ignorance I'd like to see her acknowledge that she might have been wrong in that. I'm not interested in seeing her hand-wringing excessively, more in seeing her put her talents to better use and perhaps having her assist in putting an end to Cerberus. An apology for wanting.to put a control chip in Shep's head would be nice but is unlikely and not terribly important to me personally.

I agree with this. She'd feel slight guilt probably over the fact that she didn't notice the atrocities Cerberus was committing. (And I doubt she'd bring Akuze up unless Shep did). Given the way she reacts at Pragia and the CB I'm guess she has a moral line where she stops and questions whether something's worth it. (Alas. Why couldn't your companions actually have some valuable input at Overlord?) And Cerberus has probably crossed that line a couple of times but she wasn't aware of it.

And yes...my Shep would like an apology for the control chip!

JK

Though...I really did want the option to scream at her about Akuze...since TIM seemed to have memory loss. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:06 .

[jtav]

Elyvern, I'm probably explaining it badly. She isn't responsible (as far as we know) for any of the atrocities we see. She does defend those who are responsible for those atrocities long past the point where it would occur to someone else that something might be up. That it is, in and of itself, a moral failing..



I'd like the option to yell at her about Akuze too. I've had to create pretty much out of whole cloth a mental fanfic about how my Sole Survivor can come to be as nice to her as he is .It involves her saving him from the thresher maw on Grunt's LM. The "Cerberus lackey" saving him really throws him. Especially since Wrex knows what his reaction to fighting one would be and didn't warn him. Come to think of it, that might make for a good actual fic. Any interest?

[Elyvern]

However, I do think Miranda isn't a complete consequentialist. TIM would be one who subscribes entirely to it, because for him, ends would justify just about any means. Conversely, any act that doesn't fall into that category, a pure consequentialist would feel absolved of all guilt. AKA "I didn't do it, so it's not my fault even if I knew it existed"

The places where Miranda draws the line would likely involve her ascribing moral values to extreme acts and/or putting the onus of blame on the motivations of provocateur who instigates them. If that's the case, then she would feel a certain degree of guilt for those acts if she feels they are intrinsically wrong in her value-judgement and she did nothing towards preventing them despite knowing they exist.

Modifié par Elyvern, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:36 .

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

Elyvern, I'm probably explaining it badly. She isn't responsible (as far as we know) for any of the atrocities we see. She does defend those who are responsible for those atrocities long past the point where it would occur to someone else that something might be up. That it is, in and of itself, a moral failing..

I realise I was mostly arguing about your choice of words. But as I mentioned, Miranda wouldn't see it as a moral failing if she doesn't feel personal responsibility for condoning those acts. That you keep using that word suggests you personally see it that way, and if that's the case, I find it hard to believe you'd be willing to settle for a scenario where she wouldn't feel guilt about those atrocities. Because then the issue of a moral failing would be non-event.

I'd like the option to yell at her about Akuze too. I've had to create pretty much out of whole cloth a mental fanfic about how my Sole Survivor can come to be as nice to her as he is .It involves her saving him from the thresher maw on Grunt's LM. The "Cerberus lackey" saving him really throws him. Especially since Wrex knows what his reaction to fighting one would be and didn't warn him. Come to think of it, that might make for a good actual fic. Any interest?

I'd rather you finish up "Be all Our Sins Remembered" instead, which I recall is exactly about this issue? 

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Her real moral failing is/was gross, willful ignorance I'd like to see her acknowledge that she might have been wrong in that.

Except that she'd not see it as a moral failing, but one of perception and intelligence. I don't think she'd accept a moral obligation to dig up her employer's dirty secrets.

An apology for wanting.to put a control chip in Shep's head would be nice but is unlikely and not terribly important to me personally.

I can't see her saying more than "I'm glad I didn't do it."

[jtav]

Elyvern wrote...


I realise I was mostly arguing about your choice of words. But as I mentioned, Miranda wouldn't see it as a
moral failing if she doesn't feel personal responsibility for condoning those acts. That you keep using that word suggests you personally see it that way, and if that's the case, I find it hard to believe you'd be willing to settle for a scenario where she wouldn't feel guilt about those atrocities. Because then the issue of a moral failing would be a non-event.

I think I'm tying myself into rhetorical knots. She shouldn't blame herself for every atrocity Cerberus has ever committed since she joined. She should feel some remorse insofar as her not looking too closely allowed these acts to continue.

I'd rather you finish up "Be all Our Sins Remembered" instead, which I recall is exactly about this issue? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png

The story's complete. If I had a nickel for every time someone asked what it was continued, I'd be rich.

Modifié par jtav, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:16 .

[jtav]

Ieldra, are we talking about how she would see her responsibilities, or how we think she should see them? Because I agree with you that she probably wouldn't see her blindness is a moral failing. I was arguing that she should.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
However, I do think Miranda isn't a complete consequentialist. TIM would be one who subscribes entirely to it, because for him, ends would justify just about any means. Conversely, any act that doesn't fall into that category, a pure consequentialist would feel absolved of all guilt. AKA "I didn't do it, so it's not my fault even if I knew it existed"

Consequentialism is a two-dimensional continuum. There is a sliding scale of worthy causes, and a sliding scale of acceptable means, and everyone draws the line through this plane somewhere else. I think we can safely say that Miranda would draw the line earlier than TIM for the same cause, but at the extreme end there's not much that would be beyond her. The extreme end of the means scale is, fortunately, theoretical, for even in theory, it's rather hard to construct a scenario where you'd have to, say, torture a child to save the world, and no other means would do. I also think pure consequentialism as you describe is a theoretical construct, it doesn't exist in reality because humans aren't wired that way - we might accept that some ends justify some means, but at some point everyone starts feeling bad about it. Everyone but psychopaths, that is. Even TIM asks himself if he's going too far in Retribution.

I think Cerberus' main failing is not that they use abhorrent methods at all, but that it seems they don't even look for less drastic alternatives. Miranda wouldn't stand for that, even though she'd be able to do pretty much anything if convinced of its necessity. So yes, I think Miranda is a "pure" consequentlialist in the sense that she woudn't rule out the possibility that anything could theoretically be justified. But as any mentally healthy human, she'd still feel bad about certain things and try to avoid them if she can. In the theoretical case that she can't bring herself to do something she considers necessary, she'd probably see that inability as a failing.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

I'd rather you finish up "Be all Our Sins Remembered" instead, which I recall is exactly about this issue? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png

The story's complete. If I had a nickel for every time someone asked what it was continued, I'd be rich.

This is where I'm really confused. Because the last chapter (2nd chapter on FF.net) has her deciding to look for Ish to find out more about Project Ares, and that's the end of the story? I thought it just started...

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Ieldra, are we talking about how she would see her responsibilities, or how we think she should see them? Because I agree with you that she probably wouldn't see her blindness is a moral failing. I was arguing that she should.

I see. There is - again - a sliding scale between "looking away from what's in your face" and "failing to look deeper than what you actually see". I don't know where Miranda's position is on that scale when we meet her in ME2, but I can't see "failing to look deeper" as a moral failing, especially not in an organization where compartmentalization and need-to-know are standard ways of doing things. She'd have to break her organization's most important internal rules in order to find those dirty secrets.
The same black ops modus operandi might also be the reason she doesn't know enough details about certain Cerberus projects to even suspect something like the Teltin facility could exist.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:57 .