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[Ryzaki]

I think its pretty funny how we all like Miranda but can see her so differently.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'd like the option to yell at her about Akuze too. I've had to create pretty much out of whole cloth a mental fanfic about how my Sole Survivor can come to be as nice to her as he is .It involves her saving him from the thresher maw on Grunt's LM. The "Cerberus lackey" saving him really throws him. Especially since Wrex knows what his reaction to fighting one would be and didn't warn him. Come to think of it, that might make for a good actual fic. Any interest?

Of course. That sounds interesting. Strangely, Í've never thought about how my Sole Survivor Shepards would react to being surprised by a thresher maw. Must be because I dislike Grunt's loyalty mission so much. Nothing but fighting. Boring as hell. Except for headbutting Uvenk, that was fun.

@Ryzaki:
Funny indeed. But we can't see into Miranda's head, so naturally there's a lot of interpretation.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 octobre 2010 - 10:06 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I see. There is - again - a sliding scale between "looking away from what's in your face" and "failing to look deeper than what you actually see". I don't know where Miranda's position is on that scale when we meet her in ME2, but I can't see "failing to look deeper" as a moral failing, especially not in an organization where compartmentalization and need-to-know are standard ways of doing things. She'd have to break her organization's most important internal rules in order to find those dirty secrets.
The same black ops modus operandi might also be the reason she doesn't know enough details about certain Cerberus projects to even suspect something like the Teltin facility could exist.

I can buy the fact that she may be completely out in the black with regards to Teltin, but I've always had problems myself reconciling to her blinkered vision about TIM's real motivations, given that her father's secrets and security network was also one of those things that would be red-flagged as forbidden, yet she actively sought to break through those barriers, understandably as it is that she has a personal stake in that. But given that as an example, her non-action against ferreting out Cerberus's secrets has to mean that she was contented with the sense of security and comfort in ignorance of Cerberus's more dubious activities. Her personal safety may not be the issue in Cerberus, but nonetheless, she's putting her legal freedom, the time and effort she spend on furthering their causes at risk here.

For me, the point where Miranda has effectively made her stance about supporting TIM and Cerberus would be when Cerberus decides to break away from the Alliance, and every single operative that follows along has to know they would be effectively committing treason. Even if she disdains the Alliance enough not to care about the legal consequence of that act, it would still require her to say something in the effect of "I accept that previously, I may be in this because of events beyond my control, but in choosing to make my stance here, I will be commiting myself entirely of my voluntary will." Given the example that she would and has defied standing prohibitions against prying for personal agendas, a point like this would be where she would have to seriously question her motivations and be compelled to weigh whatever evidence is at hand before burning her bridges, so to speak.  Yet it seems, she didn't, and I find it really hard to believe that someone of her intelligence and perception would just gloss over a decision as weighty as this.

Edit: I also don't buy that Oriana's safety would be the factor that overrides all her other concerns. During the time where Cerberus went rogue in 2183, she would already have a pretty high position in Cerberus. The initial disadvantage she had where she entered the organisation as a supplicant would have been substantially balanced out by her contributions up to that point in time. It would have been reasonable for her to call it quits, her debts repaid, and then retrieve her sister to an unknown location (made easier by the fact that Cerberus would be in the dark about her impending betrayal compared to the fiasco with her father).

Modifié par Elyvern, 31 octobre 2010 - 10:55 .

[jtav]

Ryzaki wrote...

I think its pretty funny how we all like Miranda but can see her so differently.

I think Miranda is the character who inspires the most divergent views among her fans. I wonder why that is?

[fongiel24]

I don't think Miranda will have any regrets about working for Cerberus. The freedom and resources they provide her with have allowed her to do a lot of good things she'd never have been able to do had she been working for the Alliance. Their ultimate goal is also something she truly believes in, even if she may interpret it somewhat differently from TIM. She was true to herself, she put her all into something she believes in, and I think most of her actions while with Cerberus advanced the cause of protecting humanity and making it stronger.

Cerberus as an organization was responsible for some horrific atrocities, but as she says with Jack, they're mistakes, but they're not hers. She didn't commit those crimes. As for feeling guilt about not trying to find out more and possibly stopping them, I'm not sure she'd be feeling too much of this either. TIM's not her father. He's likely far more adept at concealing things from his subordinates and manipulating them. Miranda's not the first to be tricked by TIM and she won't be the last either. There's no shame in having been bested by TIM. Even if she had found out about Cerberus' nastier projects, how effectively could one woman (even one as talented as Miranda) take on an organization like Cerberus? Even Shepard had the backing of the Council and the Alliance in the first game when he was fighting Cerberus.

At the end of the day, I think Miranda will look back and conclude that she did the best she could in a very difficult situation. The fact that she managed to not only survive her escape from her father, but managed to thrive in a job that allowed her to make a difference in the galaxy, advancing a cause she believes in, it a credit to her tenacity and determination. Working for Cerberus doesn't change that. If anything, going to work for the Alliance and being hamstrung by bureaucracy and politics is something she would regret a lot more than working for Cerberus.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

I don't think Miranda will have any regrets about working for Cerberus. The freedom and resources they provide her with have allowed her to do a lot of good things she'd never have been able to do had she been working for the Alliance. Their ultimate goal is also something she truly believes in, even if she may interpret it somewhat differently from TIM. She was true to herself, she put her all into something she believes in, and I think most of her actions while with Cerberus advanced the cause of protecting humanity and making it stronger.

I'm with you so far.

Cerberus as an organization was responsible for some horrific atrocities, but as she says with Jack, they're mistakes, but they're not hers. She didn't commit those crimes. As for feeling guilt about not trying to find out more and possibly stopping them, I'm not sure she'd be feeling too much of this either. TIM's not her father. He's likely far more adept at concealing things from his subordinates and manipulating them. Miranda's not the first to be tricked by TIM and she won't be the last either. There's no shame in having been bested by TIM. Even if she had found out about Cerberus' nastier projects, how effectively could one woman (even one as talented as Miranda) take on an organization like Cerberus? Even Shepard had the backing of the Council and the Alliance in the first game when he was fighting Cerberus.

Here is where I must disagree.

I can't buy that TIM would be such a smooth player as to be able to keep everything that would be morally conflicting to Miranda under wraps for the 20 years she's worked for Cerberus. The fact was he did fail in regards to Grayson in Ascension, and Grayson doesn't have the kind of intelligence or acumen that Miranda possesses. Therefore I have to see it as a case of Miranda knowing very well there are things Cerberus do that she personally wouldn't condone. Positing that she would be powerless to act against Cerberus is also jumping ahead. She could've chose to wash her hands off them if nothing else. (I'm just refuting this point for its sake)

That she chooses still to stay with them and in fact, must make an active decision to stay with them post-2183 means she wilfully chose to turn a blind eye to distasteful facts. Now my issue isn't so much that she turns a blind eye. There were many push and pull factors that compelled her to stay with Cerberus: a sense of security and complacency given that she's been with Cerberus all her adult life, Oriana's safety, the professional freedom she gets. All these are reasonable factors and no one is above a little moral weakness. But I feel it's not likely she doesn't feel a sense of responsibility for Cerberus' other misdeeds, because she can resign from Cerberus at the CB.

Post sucide-mission, you can argue that why would she care what TIM does with it? It'd no longer be her concern. But it does matter. And in this case, she must wonder what he would do with it. My gripe is why does the realisation that she must make a stance come so late, when there's so much collaborating evidence beforehand on how she may have known much worse existed.  

At the end of the day, I think Miranda will look back and conclude that she did the best she could in a very difficult situation. The fact that she managed to not only survive her escape from her father, but managed to thrive in a job that allowed her to make a difference in the galaxy, advancing a cause she believes in, it a credit to her tenacity and determination. Working for Cerberus doesn't change that. If anything, going to work for the Alliance and being hamstrung by bureaucracy and politics is something she would regret a lot more than working for Cerberus.

Personally, I think she would look back and blame herself for not opening her eyes earlier. But setting that aside, she'd recognise she did manage to accomplish some good in Cerberus. I don't think she'd be happier working for the Alliance either. In fact, as Ieldra says, she's likely better off heading an organisation of her own.

[Ryzaki]

jtav wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I think its pretty funny how we all like Miranda but can see her so differently.

I think Miranda is the character who inspires the most divergent views among her fans. I wonder why that is?

I think its because of the two conflicting characters she is in the beginning. Now this maybe just me but I just replayed the intro and she's really cold. Like...ice cold. When you first try to talk to her (right after talking with TIM) she practically brushes you off with a "we have more important things to do." she brushes off the incident with Cerberus harming the Flotilla with a "that's not how I would put it." practically goes "Okay Commander." in a tone that suggests she thinks Shep's an idiot for letting Veetor go and then on the Normandy she's all of a sudden amicable. Not exactly warm and friendly but not as cold and standoffish as she was in the beginning, she doesn't second guess you not even in the slight "uh huh." way she does at FP.

...That said that might just be me.

[Elyvern]

Ryzaki wrote...

I think its because of the two conflicting characters she is in the beginning. Now this maybe just me but I just replayed the intro and she's really cold. Like...ice cold. When you first try to talk to her (right after talking with TIM) she practically brushes you off with a "we have more important things to do." she brushes off the incident with Cerberus harming the Flotilla with a "that's not how I would put it." practically goes "Okay Commander." in a tone that suggests she thinks Shep's an idiot for letting Veetor go and then on the Normandy she's all of a sudden amicable. Not exactly warm and friendly but not as cold and standoffish as she was in the beginning, she doesn't second guess you not even in the slight "uh huh." way she does at FP.

...That said that might just be me.

Alot of us feel the same way. Something must've happened between Freedom's Progress and the launching of SR2, it's just we don't get any clues as to what it is. My theory is she was probably undergoing some kind of internal struggle. I've cut and paste what I thnk it is from 100 pages before:

I would love to explore how mentally she would not only have to relinquish the sense of power she has over Shepard as a project subject, but she must also grant him that self-same power over her actions as a superior officer. Given that she is such a confident and assertive person, having to reconcile to that wouldn't have been easy. Putting aside ethical arguments about the control chip issue, I felt that conversation actually reveals her personal misgivings about granting Shepard that power and control over her, as much as it raises the uncertainty of his motivations regarding Cerberus and the work they did on him.

[Mondo47]

I'd say that's spot-on. Miranda does begin the as the ice queen Wilson describes her as. She's outright cold with Shepard, takes a rather holier-than-thou stance with the quarians on Freedom's Progress, and then spends pretty much all her interactions with Shepard up until the mission to rescue Oriana either being churlish or just plain spiteful. She enters the game with an air of superiority about herself; evidently she places a lot of faith in her own opinions, so much so that she seems rather irritated with the Illusive Man allowing Shepard to run free and he's supposed to be her boss/substitute father-figure. She chides Jacob as though he's a child with limited experience of how the world works, when in all actuality, she probably has less hands-on experience with people and the galaxy at large; her devotion to her work for Cerberus and her segregated childhood has left her aloof, detached... not her fault really, but still, it's not nice to be on the receiving end of it.

If there's really one moment for me that really, really puts my nose out of joint it's when she shakes her head at Shepard for giving Jack the files on her... for me, that really is asking for a nice right cross. Bam!

But that is Miranda; you have to go in pretty blinded by the catsuit and the cleavage and the pretty face to ignore the fact she really is chilly and unpleasant to begin with. Like I say, not her fault; it's all the baggage she's dragging around with her and her intellectual isolation from most of her peers that's done it... much in the same way you can't really blame Jack for being the way she is.

Once she thaws out though, Miranda becomes a much more interesting person, even one that's halfway likeable. She still remains a little aloft from the rest of the crowd, and you can tell she's still struggling to let go of her old, learned behaviours (such as when she rails on Joker for the loss of the Normandy crew, as though he could have done anything to stop it), but she is getting better, as it were. It's an observation that Liara makes in LotSB if you've romanced Jack; Shepard says she's "getting better. Relatively speaking." That's how I see Miranda now - a woman learning to trust others, be comfortable amongst people she is superior to without coming over as monstrously arrogant or callous, and above all a woman learning to live at long last... not everything is either an experiement or a test for her status as Woman-Plus that she feels she must live up to.

It makes me very interested in her development in the future... are we going to see a woman with regrets about things she's done, one with desires to experience, fears to wrestle with. Some of the characters are really in a state of evolution, while some are fairly static in my eyes; Samara, Thane, Jacob, Tali, Garrus, Grunt to an extent, all seem fairly set on their paths, doing what they've always done or done before or what their race denotes, while Legion, Jack and Miranda are really turning into new people altogether, and that as a scribbler really makes me want to play around with these characters more.

Incidentally, I'm toying with an idea for a quickfic that's about Miri, I'll give you guys and gals a heads-up when I get done with it... I'll pop it in my blog with the others.

[jtav]

I actually find chilly, grouchy Miranda more likable. I don't want her to defrost completely. A little is good. Not more.



I'm playing around with that fic I talked about. And trying to wrap up chapter 3 of Persistence of Memory. The things I do for Miranda. Any interest on snippets from either? The Tuchanka fic is not a romance and Shep is quite vitriolic towards her in places.

[Elyvern]

Mondo47 wrote...

I'd say that's spot-on. Miranda does begin the as the ice queen Wilson describes her as. She's outright cold with Shepard, takes a rather holier-than-thou stance with the quarians on Freedom's Progress, and then spends pretty much all her interactions with Shepard up until the mission to rescue Oriana either being churlish or just plain spiteful. She enters the game with an air of superiority about herself; evidently she places a lot of faith in her own opinions, so much so that she seems rather irritated with the Illusive Man allowing Shepard to run free and he's supposed to be her boss/substitute father-figure. She chides Jacob as though he's a child with limited experience of how the world works, when in all actuality, she probably has less hands-on experience with people and the galaxy at large; her devotion to her work for Cerberus and her segregated childhood has left her aloof, detached... not her fault really, but still, it's not nice to be on the receiving end of it.

If there's really one moment for me that really, really puts my nose out of joint it's when she shakes her head at Shepard for giving Jack the files on her... for me, that really is asking for a nice right cross. Bam!

Heh, I keep thinking we do have some kind of value-dissonance here. I like the fact that she's cold and b*itchy at the start, and like jtav says, I think she thaws out too fast. There are also a number of statements I'd disagree with you on, but it feels like nitpicking so I'll refrain from doing so, except for 1 point. I felt it was was entirely in character as a Cerberus Loyalist for her not to want classified material on her organisation released to an obviously anti-Cerberus advocator like Jack., even if you take away all the parts of her personality you feel are distasteful to you.  

It makes me very interested in her development in the future... are we going to see a woman with regrets about things she's done, one with desires to experience, fears to wrestle with. Some of the characters are really in a state of evolution, while some are fairly static in my eyes; Samara, Thane, Jacob, Tali, Garrus, Grunt to an extent, all seem fairly set on their paths, doing what they've always done or done before or what their race denotes, while Legion, Jack and Miranda are really turning into new people altogether, and that as a scribbler really makes me want to play around with these characters more.

Mmm...I'd agree it was uncalled for that she yelled at Joker when anyone could see there was really nothing else he could've done, not to mention they wouldn't even have the SR2 if Joker didn't release EDI. (although she didn't have the benefit of the player's hindsight because we get to play Joker fumbling his way around) I'd also agree that In ME2, Jack and Miranda undergoes the biggest transformations. In fact, I'd also add Ashley into that mix. Hmm...all 3 female Lis being the ones with the biggest potential for change, I wonder if there's some kind of pattern to it. (something cringe-inducing about the power of maleshep comes to mind unfortunately) At any rate, change is interesting, and a certain degree of "softening" is fine. But changes that would cause Miranda to lose her competence, pragmatism, emotional independence or moral ambiguity would make many people in this thread go up in arms, and I can't stress that hard enough.  

Incidentally, I'm toying with an idea for a quickfic that's about Miri, I'll give you guys and gals a heads-up when I get done with it... I'll pop it in my blog with the others.

Looking forward to it!

Modifié par Elyvern, 01 novembre 2010 - 02:55 .

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

I actually find chilly, grouchy Miranda more likable. I don't want her to defrost completely. A little is good. Not more.

I'm playing around with that fic I talked about. And trying to wrap up chapter 3 of Persistence of Memory. The things I do for Miranda. Any interest on snippets from either? The Tuchanka fic is not a romance and Shep is quite vitriolic towards her in places.

The shep one please!

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...

Alot of us feel the same way. Something must've happened between Freedom's Progress and the launching of SR2, it's just we don't get any clues as to what it is. My theory is she was probably undergoing some kind of internal struggle. I've cut and paste what I thnk it is from 100 pages before:

I would love to explore how mentally she would not only have to relinquish the sense of power she has over Shepard as a project subject, but she must also grant him that self-same power over her actions as a superior officer. Given that she is such a confident and assertive person, having to reconcile to that wouldn't have been easy. Putting aside ethical arguments about the control chip issue, I felt that conversation actually reveals her personal misgivings about granting Shepard that power and control over her, as much as it raises the uncertainty of his motivations regarding Cerberus and the work they did on him.

Ah. See I like the more amicable Miranda. The one I first met in Lazarus station would've tempted Shep to toss her out of an airlock. She would've been just as much a danger to him as Jack was.

I don't want her to suddenly turn into a "I love everyone!!!" happy go lucky person but I think she was fine the way she ended up being. (Heck she could've done without the insulting Joker. As he said what did she expect him to do? Break his arm off at the Collectors? I doubt she could've done better.) Though I wanted to see more doubt towards Cerberus if the player was Paragon because her betrayal kind of seems to come out of the blue if you don't take her around with you much on the main missions.

Then again I thought on LS she had a massive and annoying superiority complex as well as momentary stupidity. "Oh I'll leave you here with the mechs." right after saying how Shep was the only thing worth saving. <_<

If my Shep could've facepalmed. He would've.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 novembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

Here is where I must disagree.

I can't buy that TIM would be such a smooth player as to be able to keep everything that would be morally conflicting to Miranda under wraps for the 20 years she's worked for Cerberus. The fact was he did fail in regards to Grayson in Ascension, and Grayson doesn't have the kind of intelligence or acumen that Miranda possesses. Therefore I have to see it as a case of Miranda knowing very well there are things Cerberus do that she personally wouldn't condone. Positing that she would be powerless to act against Cerberus is also jumping ahead. She could've chose to wash her hands off them if nothing else. (I'm just refuting this point for its sake)

That she chooses still to stay with them and in fact, must make an active decision to stay with them post-2183 means she wilfully chose to turn a blind eye to distasteful facts. Now my issue isn't so much that she turns a blind eye. There were many push and pull factors that compelled her to stay with Cerberus: a sense of security and complacency given that she's been with Cerberus all her adult life, Oriana's safety, the professional freedom she gets. All these are reasonable factors and no one is above a little moral weakness. But I feel it's not likely she doesn't feel a sense of responsibility for Cerberus' other misdeeds, because she can resign from Cerberus at the CB.

Post sucide-mission, you can argue that why would she care what TIM does with it? It'd no longer be her concern. But it does matter. And in this case, she must wonder what he would do with it. My gripe is why does the realisation that she must make a stance come so late, when there's so much collaborating evidence beforehand on how she may have known much worse existed.  

I don't think it's such a stretch. People don't see what they're not looking for, and Miranda's near-fanatical loyalty to Cerberus and TIM would offer plenty of incentive for her to ignore the details of Cerberus' misdeeds. Miranda is probably aware that Cerberus has done some things she'd find morally reprehensible, but as long as she doesn't know the details (because she's deliberately not looking for them), she can push them to the back of her head and continue on believing that Cerberus' ends are noble and thus justify the means used to reach them.

Sidebar: Ugh... I hate Karpyshin's ME characters. Sanders and his
version of Anderson are terrible but Grayson just gets at me like nails
on a chalkboard.

Miranda doesn't strike me as being self-delusional, but for an organization that took her in when she was just a teenage runaway with nowhere else to turn and gave her protection, a place to call home, and a purpose, I think she might be willing to make some excuses for them. She could rationalize Cerberus' shadier aspects as being a necessary evil - the cost of doing business in a world where nothing is ever black and white. As long as she isn't looking too closely and nobody is challenging her views of Cerberus, she's able to maintain enough emotional distance from the people Cerberus hurts to write them off as statistics. If TIM doesn't assign her to projects that will bother her and she doesn't ask him about them, she can safely ignore them.

It's only when Shepard starts asking her pointed questions and takes her along to see Cerberus' experiments up close that the wheels start turning. Even after she sees this other side of Cerberus though, I see no reason why she should feel responsible for any of it. So long as she believes that her actions while working for Cerberus weren't tainted, she can be secure in writing off Cerberus' crimes as belonging to others. If she quits Cerberus after the CB, she's lived up to her responsibility. She had a blindspot brought to her attention, she saw TIM and Cerberus for what they really were, and she ended their association. 

[Elyvern]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah. See I like the more amicable Miranda. The one I first met in Lazarus station would've tempted Shep to toss her out of an airlock. She would've been just as much a danger to him as Jack was.

It's probably a personality thing. I perk up when I encounter characters like Miranda and Jack. Conversely, characters that fall at my feet bores the hell out of me. Liara in ME1 really made me fall asleep for example. In fact, if Miranda didn't exist in ME2, Jack would be the LI I'd go for.

I don't want her to suddenly turn into a "I love everyone!!!" happy go lucky person but I think she was fine the way she ended up being. (Heck she could've done without the insulting Joker. As he said what did she expect him to do? Break his arm off at the Collectors? I doubt she could've done better.) Though I wanted to see more doubt towards Cerberus if the player was Paragon because her betrayal kind of seems to come out of the blue if you don't take her around with you much on the main missions.

I just got around to thinking about what she says to Joker. Y'know, the reason why we can definitively say that he couldn't have done any better was because we get to play him and feel his sense of frustration (what? I don't even get a pistol!?) Imagine it from Miranda's POV: what if the crew put up a better fight? What if the Praetorian wasn't involved and it was just collector mooks? But I'd still say it was uncalled for because she can't definitively second-guess what he could do given that she wasn't at the scene, nuff said.

Also, her betrayal comes out of the blue even if you take her on all the missions (which I always do). It's really a case of bad writing and well, that's not Miranda's fault, is it?

Then again I thought on LS she had a massive and annoying superiority complex as well as momentary stupidity. "Oh I'll leave you here with the mechs." right after saying how Shep was the only thing worth saving. <_< 

 
Again, I felt it was a case of bad writing. That whole part felt like a very obtuse way of trying to introduce Miranda as "badass". Her justification for shooting Wilson was really filmsy. Yeah, right, she doesn't want to risk Shepard. Hello, there are 3 of you vs 1 of him. It was perfectly within their power to capture him for interrogation. It makes Miranda look stupid, and that's character derailment. My irritation stemmed from the awful railroading that compelled Shepard to do exactly as she wished, but I've come around to realise that I can't mistake Shepard's inability to act as Miranda's fault again.

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...

It's probably a personality thing. I perk up when I encounter characters like Miranda and Jack. Conversely, characters that fall at my feet bores the hell out of me. Liara in ME1 really made me fall asleep for example. In fact, if Miranda didn't exist in ME2, Jack would be the LI I'd go for.

Yeah its defintely a personality thing. See I don't like characters that fall at my feet either. (Probably explains why Samara and Kaidan are my favorite characters). I also don't like superiortiy complexes and "I am so pretending to be badass but I'm hurt deep inside/my anger and rage is just a facade and I want someone to know the real me" Gah. Gag me with a spoon. [the above explains my extreme dislike of Morrigan, Jack and Zevran].

I just got around to thinking about what she says to Joker. Y'know, the reason why we can definitively say that he couldn't have done any better was because we get to play him and feel his sense of frustration (what? I don't even get a pistol!?) Imagine it from Miranda's POV: what if the crew put up a better fight? What if the Praetorian wasn't involved and it was just collector mooks? But I'd still say it was uncalled for because she can't definitively second-guess what he could do given that she wasn't at the scene, nuff said.

Also, her betrayal comes out of the blue even if you take her on all the missions (which I always do). It's really a case of bad writing and well, that's not Miranda's fault, is it?

Yeah. I have to agree totally uncalled for. Though she should know how strong the Collectors are because every time she faced them with Shep Sue by her side they had to run! Now if Shep Sue can't handle it...what makes her think the rest of the crew could? 

She forget that thing we fought on Horizon? (What is that blasted thing that just won't die called anyways? The thing with the thirty husks heads inside it? Gah. I hate that thing.) 

I can believe Miranda getting angry about not scrubbing it (though maybe someone should've suggested it if the whole cast hadn't been given an idiot ball. <_< ) But saying they didn't fight against them hard enough? Bah.

 

Again, I felt it was a case of bad writing. That whole part felt like a very obtuse way of trying to introduce Miranda as "badass". Her justification for shooting Wilson was really filmsy. Yeah, right, she doesn't want to risk Shepard. Hello, there are 3 of you vs 1 of him. It was perfectly within their power to capture him for interrogation. It makes Miranda look stupid, and that's character derailment. My irritation stemmed from the awful railroading that compelled Shepard to do exactly as she wished, but I've come around to realise that I can't mistake Shepard's inability to act as Miranda's fault again.

Yeah see I saw it as the character and bad writing at the same time. (The same way I see Shep Sue at times). She was really concerned about a wounded man doing serious damage to 3 well trained fighters? At least 2 of which are biotics? *sighs* I can see why she'd just kill him I just wish she'd have been more honest about it. "Cerberus doesn't allow Traitors to go unpunished" said with far less narm and cheese anyways would've been fine.

Shep nodding like an idiot was character derailing at its finest. Even Paragon Shep wouldn't have agreed so readily. (And depending on your renegade he/she might've shot Miranda and Jacob right after learning they were Cerberus).
The whole intro was just one big character derailment.

Edit: And Shep Sue is creepy and douchebaggy with the ME2 LIs. That's why the only romance I will ever do with Shep will be of the ME1 variety.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 novembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[hooahguy]

I say that Miri's anger towards Joker was kinda justified. I mean, the whole project, SR2, Shep, etc was her "baby" and it almost went up in flames with the collector abductions. I guess she had to vent and Joker was her scapegoat.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...
It's only when Shepard starts asking her pointed questions and takes her along to see Cerberus' experiments up close that the wheels start turning. Even after she sees this other side of Cerberus though, I see no reason why she should feel responsible for any of it. So long as she believes that her actions while working for Cerberus weren't tainted, she can be secure in writing off Cerberus' crimes as belonging to others. If she quits Cerberus after the CB, she's lived up to her responsibility. She had a blindspot brought to her attention, she saw TIM and Cerberus for what they really were, and she ended their association. 

I think that's the sticking point here. I really hate the fact that a few (and it's really a few) pointed questions from Shepard would be sufficient to change her mind about an organisation she's been with for so long. The worst thing is those questions aren't hard to formulate, even for someone neck-deep in the organisation but as intelligent as Miranda is. What would be a really convicing argument for me is if Shepard showed her instead of giving her paper-thin prep talks. Taking Miranda along to Teltin and Overlord, the collector's ship should've rewarded us with far more input. It's why I can't buy that she was happily oblivious until Shepard decides to point out the obvious to her. To me, she has been harbouring doubts even before Shepard raises them, but she's been toeing the party line forever and thinks she could still get away with it. Something like this would make her come across as less stupid, and funnily enough, less self-delusional I feel. Except the part where she needs Jesus Cyber-shepard to effect a motivational change on her again. Argh. 

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

I think that's the sticking point here. I really hate the fact that a few (and it's really a few) pointed questions from Shepard would be sufficient to change her mind about an organisation she's been with for so long. The worst thing is those questions aren't hard to formulate, even for someone neck-deep in the organisation but as intelligent as Miranda is. What would be a really convicing argument for me is if Shepard showed her instead of giving her paper-thin prep talks. Taking Miranda along to Teltin and Overlord, the collector's ship should've rewarded us with far more input. It's why I can't buy that she was happily oblivious until Shepard decides to point out the obvious to her. To me, she has been harbouring doubts even before Shepard raises them, but she's been toeing the party line forever and thinks she could still get away with it. Something like this would make her come across as less stupid, and funnily enough, less self-delusional I feel. Except the part where she needs Jesus Cyber-shepard to effect a motivational change on her again. Argh. 

But this is how it works. Shepard's questions aren't enough to flip her. She counters the questions he asks quickly and easily, as if she's done it before. It's seeing Teltin and Overlord combined with being asked pointed questions by someone else who's worked in the same black ops world she has that slowly changes her mind. It would have been nice to have that process actually portrayed in some way, but I think it's logical to conclude that's how Miranda's change of heart happened.

I do agree with your objection to Shepard-Jesus though. I don't like the imagery of Shepard having to redeem her for her sins. That's another reason I can never play a pure Paragon Shepard - he's a completely snow white character in a very grey world. The contrast is too jarring when he's put beside other characters.

[Elyvern]

Ryzaki wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

It's probably a personality thing. I perk up when I encounter characters like Miranda and Jack. Conversely, characters that fall at my feet bores the hell out of me. Liara in ME1 really made me fall asleep for example. In fact, if Miranda didn't exist in ME2, Jack would be the LI I'd go for.

Yeah its defintely a personality thing. See I don't like characters that fall at my feet either. (Probably explains why Samara and Kaidan are my favorite characters). I also don't like superiortiy complexes and "I am so pretending to be badass but I'm hurt deep inside/my anger and rage is just a facade and I want someone to know the real me" Gah. Gag me with a spoon. [the above explains my extreme dislike of Morrigan, Jack and Zevran].

I'm not a fan of overt badassery stemming from hurt/anger either + inability to move pass. And if I were to chose Jack as a LI, I would have to reconcile myself to all of that. But well, Miranda hits the right spots for me in so many places (she's also has emotional baggage, but she learned to move pass it and funnel her passion into productive use of her time and talents for example) that there's absolutely no competition when she's around.

Yeah. I have to agree totally uncalled for. Though she should know how strong the Collectors are because every time she faced them with Shep Sue by her side they had to run! Now if Shep Sue can't handle it...what makes her think the rest of the crew could? 

She forget that thing we fought on Horizon? (What is that blasted thing that just won't die called anyways? The thing with the thirty husks heads inside it? Gah. I hate that thing.) 

That's the Praetorian I was mentioning about, and it's credible that she may not know a Praetorian was involved. But then again, it would be entirely possible that Harbinger would be ASSUMING CONTROL on the SR2, although he didn't. Yeah...setting all that aside, I'd say she really can't be second guessing Joker's predicament. 
 

Edit: And Shep Sue is creepy and douchebaggy with the ME2 LIs. That's why the only romance I will ever do with Shep will be of the ME1 variety.

Funnily enough, I couldn't romance any of the ME1 LIs not because of Shepard's patronising behavior but because of all the LIs, Miranda is the only one who is able to stand up to Shepard despite his domineering attitude. She would never stand being roughshod over, and their renegade romance is a good indication of that.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

But this is how it works. Shepard's questions aren't enough to flip her. She counters the questions he asks quickly and easily, as if she's done it before. It's seeing Teltin and Overlord combined with being asked pointed questions by someone else who's worked in the same black ops world she has that slowly changes her mind. It would have been nice to have that process actually portrayed in some way, but I think it's logical to conclude that's how Miranda's change of heart happened.

I can see where you're coming from. But I still can't buy how she can be oblivious for 20 years until a series of quick questions and revelations at particular sites all taking place within a few months' time would be sufficient to change her mindset. Something like this, I feel, cheapens her status and value as a loyalist as well as the tenacity of her personality if her deepest beliefs can be overturned so easily. So personally, I'd still think there has to be some seeds of doubt from before Shepard entered her life.

I do agree with your objection to Shepard-Jesus though. I don't like the imagery of Shepard having to redeem her for her sins. That's another reason I can never play a pure Paragon Shepard - he's a completely snow white character in a very grey world. The contrast is too jarring when he's put beside other characters.

Yes, it's incredibly offensive if you buy into the religious angle. My gripe doesn't even have to extend that far. The fact that he can breeze in, throw a few rather inane questions, make a bunch of not-so-astute observations, and change worlds and people just smacks of hubris of the highest degree.

[Elyvern]

hooahguy wrote...

I say that Miri's anger towards Joker was kinda justified. I mean, the whole project, SR2, Shep, etc was her "baby" and it almost went up in flames with the collector abductions. I guess she had to vent and Joker was her scapegoat.

I'd actually qualify that by saying it's likely she felt that she had no control of the situation, and that sense of helplessness was what fuelled her frustration and thus her tirade against Joker. Which possibly means while she was yelling at him, she was feeling more acutely her own sense of inadequacy than anything else. While it doesn't exonerate her from making an unjustified accusation, it would at least make her motivation understandable. That's one way to look at it.

Modifié par Elyvern, 01 novembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...

I'm not a fan of overt badassery stemming from hurt/anger either + inability to move pass. And if I were to chose Jack as a LI, I would have to reconcile myself to all of that. But well, Miranda hits the right spots for me in so many places (she's also has emotional baggage, but she learned to move pass it and funnel her passion into productive use of her time and talents for example) that there's absolutely no competition when she's around.

True that. One of my favorite things about Kaidan and Miranda is that they don't let their past chain them down. Sure Kaidan more so than Miranda but still neither of them are screaming at the sky that their life sucked.

That's the Praetorian I was mentioning about, and it's credible that she may not know a Praetorian was involved. But then again, it would be entirely possible that Harbinger would be ASSUMING CONTROL on the SR2, although he didn't. Yeah...setting all that aside, I'd say she really can't be second guessing Joker's predicament.

Oh I forgot about that.

Harbinger....I hate you so much....

The worst part is to actually make her "What!" valid all they had to do was make it about scrubbing the IFF! I could see her flipping out because they were dumb enough to place Reaper tech (which has been known to blow up in people's faces!) without checking it out. That's something that could've been avoided had the whole ship not been handed an idiot ball.

Edit: Though I can understand the whole venting her frustrations. Which makes it more understandable but not less any facepalm worthy.
 

Funnily enough, I couldn't romance any of the ME1 LIs not because of Shepard's patronising behavior but because of all the LIs, Miranda is the only one who is able to stand up to Shepard despite his domineering attitude. She would never stand being roughshod over, and their renegade romance is a good indication of that.

Yeah I love the ME1 LIs. And Shep...felt more like a human being than Shep Sue in ME1. Sure Human Shep came back a little in LOTSB but honestly in my opinion it was too little too late. Shep Sue shall be Shep Sue in my mind. *sighs* 

Yeah I can't play renegade. He's just too much of a douchebag to be a douchebag. (I can't play pure paragon either because Shep ends up being a purity sue which is even more annoying than the god mode sue Shep already is). Paragades is where it's at.

Though I saw some snippets of the Miranda/RenegadeShep romance. I see that they are equals (He's still too creepy for my tastes. Good god that smile *shudders*) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 novembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
That she chooses still to stay with them and in fact, must make an active decision to stay with them post-2183 means she wilfully chose to turn a blind eye to distasteful facts. Now my issue isn't so much that she turns a blind eye. There were many push and pull factors that compelled her to stay with Cerberus: a sense of security and complacency given that she's been with Cerberus all her adult life, Oriana's safety, the professional freedom she gets. All these are reasonable factors and no one is above a little moral weakness. But I feel it's not likely she doesn't feel a sense of responsibility for Cerberus' other misdeeds, because she can resign from Cerberus at the CB.

Post sucide-mission, you can argue that why would she care what TIM does with it? It'd no longer be her concern. But it does matter. And in this case, she must wonder what he would do with it. My gripe is why does the realisation that she must make a stance come so late, when there's so much collaborating evidence beforehand on how she may have known much worse existed.

Again, I question that she ought to make a stand earlier. If she does mostly things with good outcomes using less objectionable methods - as far as any black-ops operation can be said to have that - it's plausible to argue it's better that she stays. Better do things her own way within the organization and turn a blind eye to suspicious data than walk away and let someone worse take over. Even more so if she thinks Cerberus' work is, on the whole, necessary, and given that conclusive evidence of the atrocities likely doesn't exist outside of the facilities themselves. She'd only walk away once convinced that Cerberus' work has more bad than good results, or that it does its job of protecting humanity worse than the Alliance. Which brings up, again, her inexplicable behaviour at the Collector base if you destroy it - right at the end of a successful operation with no atrocities involved and a very desirable outcome, an operation no other organization would have carried out. She can't seriously believe Shepard can follow that up on his own. If there's ever a wrong time to resign, it's then. It's as if her ability to think ahead has left her completely there.

[ShrinkingFish]

Ryzaki wrote...

I think its pretty funny how we all like Miranda but can see her so differently.

Almost like she was a real person.

Proof of a well written character.

Love the Bioware writing team. They never dissappoint.