15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Elyvern wrote...

hooahguy wrote...

I say that Miri's anger towards Joker was kinda justified. I mean, the whole project, SR2, Shep, etc was her "baby" and it almost went up in flames with the collector abductions. I guess she had to vent and Joker was her scapegoat.

I'd actually qualify that by saying it's likely she felt that she had no control of the situation, and that sense of helplessness was what fuelled her frustration and thus her tirade against Joker. Which possibly means while she was yelling at him, she was feeling more acutely her own sense of inadequacy than anything else. While it doesn't exonerate her from making an unjustified accusation, it would at least make her motivation understandable. That's one way to look at it.

I think she's supposed to be the cold b*tch and every time they have a scene where someone needs to be the voice of harshness they give the job to her.

[Ieldra]

Mondo47 wrote...
I'd say that's spot-on. Miranda does begin the as the ice queen Wilson describes her as. She's outright cold with Shepard, takes a rather holier-than-thou stance with the quarians on Freedom's Progress, and then spends pretty much all her interactions with Shepard up until the mission to rescue Oriana either being churlish or just plain spiteful.

I always wonder how people can see the same things I do and yet - see completely different things. Yes, Miranda's cold on Lazarus station, but I like it very much that she refuses to confide to Shepard at the start, I think he's rather intrusive and deserves a rebuff. I also understand her stance on Veetor even though I never let Cerberus have him, and since when is disagreeing with your boss a "holier-than-thou" stance? She's convinced she's right and doesn't hesitate to let him know that. So what? I'm always tempted to ask people who make such a big issue of that if they aren't confident enough to deal with disagreement in a mature way.
As for being churlish and spiteful - I can't see *anything* of that. You can interpret the Lazarus station dialogue that way if you wnat, but otherwise - did we hear the same dialogue? I've checked the online dialogue tree and replayed the conversations in my mind, and really, I see absolutely nothing like that.

She chides Jacob as though he's a child with limited experience of how the world works, when in all actuality, she probably has less hands-on experience with people and the galaxy at large;

That actually not true. Canonically, she has an extensive net of contacts all over the galaxy. You can't maintain such a network without knowing how to deal with people. The only area where she likely has less experience than Jacob is combat.

her devotion to her work for Cerberus and her segregated childhood has left her aloof, detached... not her fault really, but still, it's not nice to be on the receiving end of it.

I tend to like people whose default attitude is detached. Apart from that preference, It's also far easier to deal with than Jack's barely contained rage.

If there's really one moment for me that really, really puts my nose out of joint it's when she shakes her head at Shepard for giving Jack the files on her... for me, that really is asking for a nice right cross. Bam!

I disagree. Giving classified information about her organization to one of its enemies? Really, how could she ever *not* object to that. In fact, I find it annoying that I can't prevent Jack from getting those data, since she pretty much admits her retribution will not be limited to the guilty parties

Once she thaws out though, Miranda becomes a much more interesting person, even one that's halfway likeable. She still remains a little aloft from the rest of the crowd, and you can tell she's still struggling to let go of her old, learned behaviours (such as when she rails on Joker for the loss of the Normandy crew, as though he could have done anything to stop it), but she is getting better, as it were. It's an observation that Liara makes in LotSB if you've romanced Jack; Shepard says she's "getting better. Relatively speaking." That's how I see Miranda now - a woman learning to trust others, be comfortable amongst people she is superior to without coming over as monstrously arrogant or callous, and above all a woman learning to live at long last... not everything is either an experiement or a test for her status as Woman-Plus that she feels she must live up to.

I have to say I wouldn't like her to go too far in the "trusting" direction. I'm also very much against her seeing herself as "one of the crowd", as you implied in one of your earlier posts. I like her being somewhat aloft, and given her improved traits, seeing her behave otherwise would feel like an affectation, some sort of reverse snobbery. I also disagree that berating Joker was a learned behaviour. She was unusually emotional there, unprofessional, very much against her default behavior. Yes, I'd rebuff her strongly for that, but at the same time I'd excuse anyone such an outburst at that time. 
The only part I agree with is that she's indeed learning to be more comfortable around people and perhaps to make one or the other connection instead of pushing *everyone* away. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Ieldra]

The last page was a wall of text. Things need to lighten up a bit...







And to repost one of the really romantic ones - I rarely see that any more because it's from the Paragon path of the first romance conversation. I always expect to see the static here:

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[t3HPrO]

Ever heard of off-cam character dev people? God only knows what Shep said to Miri off cam to make her change her mind. Only reason why we can't haz off-cam dialog is because if would make ME2's file size swell from 12.5GB to about 16GB. And there's that pesky little thing called budget.

[jtav]

"Off-camera" character development is extremely poor writing. If you're going to have a character change, you need to show it. It can be subtle, but it needs to be there.

[Mondo47]

Ieldra2 wrote...

**snippety-snip**

I really hate big quote-pyramids - they're no fun for anyone to read. I'll just say it's only my opinion; I see it as correct. You don't have to, nor does anyone else... I'm just sharing here on Speakers Corner as it were. But yes, I do read the Lazarus station dialogue as being brusk and detached... almost Frankenstein-ian; Miranda being very much the doctor unsatisfied with the creation and perhaps a little afraid or envious of it (based on the various dialogue instances of Shepard insinuating Miranda is concerned about her position as Cerberus-favorite, Wilson's log entry, etc). Jacob on the other hand takes a chance on the walking corpse and opens up to it... he's honest (and sure, you can read it as naive if you like to trust so quickly, but he's probably chancing on the Legend of Shepard - Hero of the Citadel) from moment one. So Miranda mocks him for it. Sure, she can have a massive network of contacts and underlings scurrying around the station after her, but she doesn't have to be nice to anyone to do that. She can be hard-nosed and menacing and have exactly the same network through fear as opposed to respect. That's what I meant there - Miranda isn't used to taking things on trust, isn't used to opening up, and she doesn't like to take chances (as evidenced by the control chip plan). Jacob is willing to play nice, chance it, opening him up to a whole world of friends, comrades, people willing to be open with him, people who won't talk sh*t about him behind his back or plan how to screw him over to further their own position. A nice guy may finish last, but at least he will have respect at the finishing line. I may say this kind of behaviour is learned, but maybe conditioned would be a better word; put her in the right situation, bam - she drops right back into a pattern she knows works, that commands respect, much like Jack throwing her weight about.

As for Jack, ah, I like wild people; passionate, angry, volatile souls. You know where you stand with them. It's the same reason I like the krogan. They're honest. No stabbing you in the back - straight to the face as Grunt would say. Jack's very much the same, though her only front as it were is one crafted to defend herself from harm. It is though a much more obvious front than Miranda's chilly businesslike form; it's dazzlingly immature for starters, her puffing herself up, while Miranda's is much more believable as a detached, uncaring soul. Jack might talk up a storm about killing people related to anyone connected to the experiments performed on her, but while she might have no compunctions about killing people that harm her, or stand between her and her freedom or continued existance, I doubt she'd ever be able to kill innocents (she can spare Aresh, who she only wants to kill because he intends to do the same to more children, and upon discovering her memories of Teltin are distinctly faulty Jack feels guilt about the suffering of others, distinctly fracturing her f*ck-everyone-but-me front). You'll find that opinion is pretty much set in stone over in the Jack thread, too - it's not just me wanting to be undulgant momma to a problem child. She's nowhere near as compunctionless as she wants the universe at large to think.

But back to Miri, yes, I'd agree that I'd not want her to thaw out utterly; she needs some of that aloofness to remain there. It means she can have moments where she is a fish out of water, coping with new and alien feelings, or choosing different methods in dealing with problems or people. One thing I'd love to see is how Miranda deals with regret, or acceptance of things outside her control. And Jack... I really want to see how those two cope with one another. They have a galaxy to save; bigger and more important than their personal issues, so... how do they manage to function together without ripping out walls and spitting in one another's tea?

[Axestone]

Ieldra2, these pictures are gorgeous. Thank you for your hard work, sometimes pleasant distraction from the translation of the text and look at beautiful pictures.

This I especially liked:

[Ieldra]

Mondo47 wrote....
That's what I meant there - Miranda isn't used to taking things on trust, isn't used to opening up, and she doesn't like to take chances (as evidenced by the control chip plan).

What can I say - I like her more for it. It's a rational attitude when reason is what's called for, though it does go too far here and there. It seems as if our interpretation of characters are very much colored by our preferences.

I love people like Miranda, who prefer to be honest (as evidenced by telling Shepard point-blanka about the control chip) but are mentally and morally flexible and capable of infinite subtlely if they so choose, people who choose reason over passion where appropriate, who aren't fast to judge and can be argued with, and who keep their thoughts and feelings to themselves except in select circumstances and to select people. That I occasionally don't know where I stand with them, that's something I can deal with. On occasion, it wouldn't even offend me much to have been manipulated by such a person - not that I'd easily trust someone who did that again, but I'd admire the way it was done and chide myself for the weakness that allowed it.

The krogan, though, I almost hate. I see them as galactic bullyboys, unapologetically violent and unrepentant about their old uprising. Everything in them triggers my dislike reflex, there's a desire to wipe them off the face of the galaxy, which I wouldn't do only because such things are always the last solution to try. With Jack it's much the same - emotionally, I see her as a threat to remove first. Knowing how she came to be what she is creates some empathy, but doesn't offset the first impression. Speaking with her more creates much more empathy, but at the same time tells me she's unrepentant about her homicial rages and that balances things out again, justifying my initial impulse to have her gone. I admit it's worth it to go through all that and see her professional behavior at the Collector base, and if she dies there, the way she dies tells you that she's changed a lot. So yes, there's a lot of character development here, only you only see it if you romance her or if she dies. But I don't trust the impulsive - I'd always feel anything could trigger a fit of rage and I need to be extremely careful around her.

[...]upon discovering her memories of Teltin are distinctly faulty Jack feels guilt about the suffering of others, distinctly fracturing her f*ck-everyone-but-me front). You'll find that opinion is pretty much set in stone over in the Jack thread, too - it's not just me wanting to be undulgant momma to a problem child. She's nowhere near as compunctionless as she wants the universe at large to think

Of course you all see it that way. Otherwise she'd be unlikeable. But where is the evidence she feels guilt about the suffering of others? I admit I haven't looked for that very diligently, so I'm willing to be convinced. It's actually much the same as we do with Miranda: we all assume she wouldn't condone the Teltin facility on the evidence of one short sentence she says if you bring her on Jack's loyalty mission, which you'd never hear if you leave her on the Normandy, and by assuming she'd extend her empathy for her sister to other children. We all see it that way, but if you're set to dislike her, you can say "Oriana is family, and family is always special" and interpret her statement that Teltin was "a mistake" in a way that has nothing to do with empathy for the children who suffered there.

But back to Miri, yes, I'd agree that I'd not want her to thaw out utterly; she needs some of that aloofness to remain there. It means she can have moments where she is a fish out of water, coping with new and alien feelings, or choosing different methods in dealing with problems or people. One thing I'd love to see is how Miranda deals with regret, or acceptance of things outside her control. And Jack... I really want to see how those two cope with one another. They have a galaxy to save; bigger and more important than their personal issues, so... how do they manage to function together without ripping out walls and spitting in one another's tea?

I'd like to see all that, too. Despite some similarities, they're both at extreme ends of the "calculating vs. impulsive" scale. I don't think they'll ever be exactly compatible, but there are grounds for mutual respect after the Omega-4 relay mission.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 novembre 2010 - 04:09 .

[hooahguy]

Elyvern wrote...


Also, her betrayal comes out of the blue even if you take her on all the missions (which I always do). It's really a case of bad writing and well, that's not Miranda's fault, is it?

I thought weve been over this. Its not so out of the blue. I mean, as Yannkee said, why is it so strange for someone to keep his/her feelings bottled up until they see something so horrific (which would be Lilith being disssolved) that he/she says what they feel? For all we know, Miri kept self-discipline about various wrongs she saw (and only briefly saying something about it, as we saw with Pragia) that we can only assume that her resignation at the end was OOC.

[fongiel24]

Mondo47 wrote...

I really hate big quote-pyramids - they're no fun for anyone to read. I'll just say it's only my opinion; I see it as correct. You don't have to, nor does anyone else... I'm just sharing here on Speakers Corner as it were. But yes, I do read the Lazarus station dialogue as being brusk and detached... almost Frankenstein-ian; Miranda being very much the doctor unsatisfied with the creation and perhaps a little afraid or envious of it (based on the various dialogue instances of Shepard insinuating Miranda is concerned about her position as Cerberus-favorite, Wilson's log entry, etc). Jacob on the other hand takes a chance on the walking corpse and opens up to it... he's honest (and sure, you can read it as naive if you like to trust so quickly, but he's probably chancing on the Legend of Shepard - Hero of the Citadel) from moment one. So Miranda mocks him for it. Sure, she can have a massive network of contacts and underlings scurrying around the station after her, but she doesn't have to be nice to anyone to do that. She can be hard-nosed and menacing and have exactly the same network through fear as opposed to respect. That's what I meant there - Miranda isn't used to taking things on trust, isn't used to opening up, and she doesn't like to take chances (as evidenced by the control chip plan). Jacob is willing to play nice, chance it, opening him up to a whole world of friends, comrades, people willing to be open with him, people who won't talk sh*t about him behind his back or plan how to screw him over to further their own position. A nice guy may finish last, but at least he will have respect at the finishing line. I may say this kind of behaviour is learned, but maybe conditioned would be a better word; put her in the right situation, bam - she drops right back into a pattern she knows works, that commands respect, much like Jack throwing her weight about.

At the risk of being accused of going OT, I just want to say that although Jacob starts off as being very open and willing to take a chance on Shepard, he strangely seems to do a 180 as he gets to know Shepard better. Very bizarre and not cool in my books at all. I wanted to like him so badly but his writers seemed to want me to dislike him even more.

I like the progression of Miranda's relationship much better, although as has been pointed out countless times, she seems to thaw far too quickly. Miranda and Jack's relationships actually make sense. They start out frosty and confrontational, but as they get to know Shepard and go through things together with him, they open up.

Ieldra2 wrote...

The krogan, though, I almost hate. I see
them as galactic bullyboys, unapologetically violent and unrepentant
about their old uprising. Everything in them triggers my dislike reflex,
there's a desire to wipe them off the face of the galaxy, which I
wouldn't do only because such things are always the last solution to
try. With Jack it's much the same - emotionally, I see her as a threat
to remove first. Knowing how she came to be what she is creates some
empathy, but doesn't offset the first impression. Speaking with her more
creates much more empathy, but at the same time tells me she's
unrepentant about her homicial rages and that balances things out again,
justifying my initial impulse to have her gone. I admit it's worth it
to go through all that and see her professional behavior at the
Collector base, and if she dies there, the way she dies tells you that
she's changed a lot. So yes, there's a lot of character development
here, only you only see it if you romance her or if she dies. But I
don't trust the impulsive - I'd always feel anything could trigger a fit
of rage and I need to be extremely careful around her.

I like the krogan as enemies. They're brutal, violent, and singleminded in their determination to roll over everybody else, but at least they're direct and honest about it, as Mondo mentioned. You never have to guess where you stand with them and when they come for you, they do it without deception. I much prefer them to the batarians, who skulk about in the shadows and wage war by proxy with slavers and pirates. There's almost a perverted sense of honour the krogan have that sets them apart from other villains.

[fongiel24]

hooahguy wrote...

I thought weve been over this. Its not so out of the blue. I mean, as Yannkee said, why is it so strange for someone to keep his/her feelings bottled up until they see something so horrific (which would be Lilith being disssolved) that he/she says what they feel? For all we know, Miri kept self-discipline about various wrongs she saw (and only briefly saying something about it, as we saw with Pragia) that we can only assume that her resignation at the end was OOC.

The 180 Miranda does in the Collector base is jarring. We're never given much hint of her ever having changed her mind from being an ardent Cerberus supporter and all of a sudden she's giving TIM the middle finger and walking out. ME2 never gives us any hints or indications that Miranda is having second thoughts about her association with Cerberus. This isn't a novel, where the author can give us insights into what the character is thinking. For us to know what Miranda is going through, she has to either tell us or otherwise give us some sort of indication that she's struggling with Cerberus' misdeeds through her actions.

The fact that ME2 never gave us anything like this is poor writing on Bioware's part. Expecting the player to come up with so much in their heads is unreasonable. I'm not saying everything should be spoonfed, but we pay Bioware $60 for them to tell us their story, not for them to put down a bunch of plot points and ask us to connect all the dots ourselves.

[jtav]

"They kept children here?" was actually the moment Miranda went from someone I was grateful toward for shooting Wilson and saving me from carrying the Idiot Ball to someone who intrigued me. Strahovski sounded genuinely horrified and I saw a crack in Miranda's armor. I'd find the idea she'd condone harming children a hard sell. I do see some guilt from Jack, though she tries to deny it.



I'm going to do my level best to leave Miranda on the ship my next playthrough as my Sole Survivor despises her. Don't know how well it'll work. On the other hand, I'm still working on that story where she saves him. They're displaying a remarkable amount of chemistry for a non-romance story, maybe because I'm not trying to stick to the in-game romance. This guy would be terribly obsessed with making up for his prior bad treatment of her. He'd do almost anything for her. It wouldn't look anything like what was in the game, though. He's more thoughtful, introverted and serious than canon!Shep.

[Elyvern]

hooahguy wrote...

Elyvern wrote...


Also, her betrayal comes out of the blue even if you take her on all the missions (which I always do). It's really a case of bad writing and well, that's not Miranda's fault, is it?

I thought weve been over this. Its not so out of the blue. I mean, as Yannkee said, why is it so strange for someone to keep his/her feelings bottled up until they see something so horrific (which would be Lilith being disssolved) that he/she says what they feel? For all we know, Miri kept self-discipline about various wrongs she saw (and only briefly saying something about it, as we saw with Pragia) that we can only assume that her resignation at the end was OOC.

Inaccurate. Even after seeing the colonists/crew turn to goo, she still tells Shepard they can't afford to do the crew any favours and send someone back with them. So the horrific nature of the goo machine didn't shoehorn her into making an emotional and impulsive judgement at all. She was still pragmatic and coolly calculative. Then immediately in the next fight, she makes the utterly emotional assertion of using the base being a betrayal when she has proven that the visceral knowledge hadn't fazed her. It's OOC unless you're willing to make many, many assumptions. The question is how many do you need to make until that entire reasoning topples over from suppositions?

Modifié par Elyvern, 01 novembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...
Inaccurate. Even after seeing the colonists/crew turn to goo, she still tells Shepard they can't afford to do the crew any favours and send someone back with them. So the horrific nature of the goo machine didn't shoehorn her into making an emotional and impulsive judgement at all. She was still pragmatic and coolly calculative. Then immediately in the next fight, she makes the utterly emotional assertion of using the base being a betrayal when she has proven that the visceral knowledge hadn't fazed her. It's OOC unless you're willing to make many, many assumptions. The question is how many do you need to make until that entire reasoning topples over from suppositions?

Yeah. I wish they had kept her emotional from the beginning or kept her cold and calculating to the end. I wouldn't like her if she had done the latter but at least it would be consistent. <_<

And good god did I want Shep to give her a "WTF is wrong with you?" look when she says we can't afford to do the crew any favors. Like...there was 12 of us there. One person wasn't going to make a big difference (particulary squishy Mordin) against the Collectors.

So...she's willing to let the crew die do to "we can't afford this." but is unwilling to save the collector base despite us not being able to afford losing to the reapers?  If she had said something halfway logical at that point I'd have accepted it but she didn't.

As it was my Shep was wondering if she had MPD.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 novembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[aeetos21]

I think that was one of my biggest complaints with a lot of the characters, in both games. In games like ME you want your characters to stay consistent with the influences you give them. Kind of how it went with Allistair in DAO and you can influence his role towards the end of the game as either a wimpy (blank) or a kick ass take no prisoner type of (blank). Unfortunately in Mass Effect's case I imagine it'll be hard enough for Bioware to keep track of storylines on who died and who survived and all that let alone our influences on them. But since there won't be a follow up to ME3 I think we'll see a lot more consistency with the characters and their outcomes with the influence our Shepard puts on them, if that makes sense.

[Elyvern]

aeetos21 wrote...

I think that was one of my biggest complaints with a lot of the characters, in both games. In games like ME you want your characters to stay consistent with the influences you give them. Kind of how it went with Allistair in DAO and you can influence his role towards the end of the game as either a wimpy (blank) or a kick ass take no prisoner type of (blank). Unfortunately in Mass Effect's case I imagine it'll be hard enough for Bioware to keep track of storylines on who died and who survived and all that let alone our influences on them. But since there won't be a follow up to ME3 I think we'll see a lot more consistency with the characters and their outcomes with the influence our Shepard puts on them, if that makes sense.

Bioware has been surprisingly coherent with alot of them, I felt. The 3 glaring ones I can think of is Garrus whom if you paragon-ise at the end of ME1 still reverts to his vigilante ways. Liara, who underwent the most massive derailment of all, starting from the Redemption comics, and Miranda at the end of the CB mission. With the case of Garrus and Liara, it was blunt-style authorial intent forcing them into a particular direction to make their roles more convincing-- and that's something I really hope not to see again. Miranda's seemed like an isolated incident so far as we know that she was also railroaded into quitting the base for paragon players. It waits to be seen if she'd continued to get railroaded and derailed in ME3 come the impeding confrontation with TIM and Cerberbus.   

[fongiel24]

Ryzaki wrote...

And good god did I want Shep to give her a "WTF is wrong with you?" look when she says we can't afford to do the crew any favors. Like...there was 12 of us there. One person wasn't going to make a big difference (particulary squishy Mordin) against the Collectors.

So...she's willing to let the crew die do to "we can't afford this." but is unwilling to save the collector base despite us not being able to afford losing to the reapers?  If she had said something halfway logical at that point I'd have accepted it but she didn't.

As it was my Shep was wondering if she had MPD.

Miranda's advice is only flawed if you consider every member of your handpicked squad to be completely interchangeable with no special qualities or skills that set them apart. This might be true from a gameplay perspective, but from a story perspective I think it's safe to assume that every one of them was selected for a reason. Given that Shepard knows absolutely nothing about what he might be facing ahead, it makes sense for Miranda to counsel him not to send anyone back with the crew. The person Shepard sends back might just be the one with the specialized skills that he needs later on.

Modifié par fongiel24, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:18 .

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
I like the krogan as enemies. They're brutal, violent, and singleminded in their determination to roll over everybody else, but at least they're direct and honest about it, as Mondo mentioned. You never have to guess where you stand with them and when they come for you, they do it without deception. I much prefer them to the batarians, who skulk about in the shadows and wage war by proxy with slavers and pirates. There's almost a perverted sense of honour the krogan have that sets them apart from other villains.

Except that the batarians don't have these attributes as racial traits. The canon leaves the possibility open that we might meet decent batarians somewhen, but the krogan would have to evolve as a species. I wonder why nobody has tried to make a genophage-like virus that makes them less aggressive. 

Sorry, somewhat OT here. My Miranda thoughts are all going into my fanfic at the moment. Spy fiction isn't the easiest thing to write.

[Ryzaki]

fongiel24 wrote...

Miranda's advice is only flawed if you consider every member of your handpicked squad to be completely interchangeable with no special qualities or skills that set them apart. This might be true from a gameplay perspective, but from a story perspective I think it's safe to assume that every one of them was selected for a reason. Given that Shepard knows absolutely nothing about what he might be facing ahead, it makes sense for Miranda to counsel him not to send anyone back with the crew. The person Shepard sends back might just be the one with the specialized skills that he needs later on.

Uh. Yeah but Mordin himself was recruited for his scientific abilities. He wasn't recurited because he's a good combatant [it was simply a nice bonus] (and considering he has one of the worst HTL scores doesn't do him any favors). He would need a while to study anything, I could see her complaining about sending someone like Grunt who you need to fight but the fact is the CB missions is an attack and destroy mission. You're not there to do anything else other than defeat the Collectors. (Getting/destroying the base is a nice bonus). Given that the only things Shep has faced so far has been of the hacking/fighting variety she has no leg to stand on complaining about sending the science guy who can't take a lot of damage and isn't a biotic back. (Not to mention the fact that you can have three other technicans. (Kasumi, Tali, Legion) who are actually better at the hacking thing. *OT: Is there a way to go into the SM without a working Tech? At the point Shep is at the only thing you've been doing is fighting.

So no I can't agree on the whole "You might need Mordin." when you have three people who do the job better still with you.

For someone so reasonable she doesn't think it would be a good idea to send the science guy (who is a tough doctor back with the Crew?) who you need for upgrades and the like back? 

**working as in one that will actually do the job currectly while loyal without the rocket to the face.

OTT: How the hell does Tali's mask remain perfectly fine when she gets said rocket to the face? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:13 .

[Elyvern]

I have to point out too that taking down the CB is the mission here, as Miranda herself says. That the crew was captured on a sideline cannot detract from the fact that the main mission is why the entire team is there. What that does influence is narrow down the time window that they have to launch the suicide mission. Sending an escort back to ensure the crew survives is therefore diverting resources from the main assignment.

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...

I have to point out too that taking down the CB is the mission here, as Miranda herself says. That the crew was captured on a sideline cannot detract from the fact that the main mission is why the entire team is there. What that does influence is narrow down the time window that they have to launch the suicide mission. Sending an escort back to ensure the crew survives is therefore diverting resources from the main assignment.

I think the difference is that Mordin is a valuable resource as well. And frankly he tells you himself he's more for recon missions and experiments. Meanwhile everyone else in your crew has been on the front lines often. (Well except Kasumi but she's a damn ninja). And yeah taking down the base is the main mission which involves a lot of front line fighting and zero recon. There are no experiments going on (well other than the Reapers/Collectors experiments) so having the science dude along is kind of...odd.

And before anyone brings up the tubes: The collectors swarmed you and tried to kill the person in the tube (Or vents....whatever).

Frankly I felt the injection was just there to tell you how cold and calculating Miranda is. Which makes it even weirder how she acts about keeping the base.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:18 .

[Elyvern]

It doesn't matter. Everyone signed up for the suicide mission knowing well they may not live to see the end, the suicide mission is the event horizon against which every other argument must be secondary to. And at that point in time, who would know we'd end up fighting a terminator? It is entirely possible that they could find themselves in a roomful of seeker swarms, collectors emerging out of cloning pods that require techs and scientists to disable--just offhand positing a scenario.

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...

It doesn't matter. Everyone signed up for the suicide mission knowing well they may not live to see the end, the suicide mission is the event horizon against which every other argument must be secondary to. And at that point in time, who would know we'd end up fighting a terminator? It is entirely possible that they could find themselves in a roomful of seeker swarms, collectors emerging out of cloning pods that require techs and scientists to disable--just offhand positing a scenario.

The countermeasure was already created there is no reason for Mordin. Anything Mordin can disable Legion and Tali can probably do in half time. If they had to create another countermeasure those things take time. They'd have been dead before it was created. (And this is assuming they'd have been able to create it without going back to the Normandy).

We don't know how long it took Mordin to create the CM for SS (doesn't help that you can recruit him first or last but either way right before Horizon is when its finished.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:22 .

[Elyvern]

Ryzaki wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

It doesn't matter. Everyone signed up for the suicide mission knowing well they may not live to see the end, the suicide mission is the event horizon against which every other argument must be secondary to. And at that point in time, who would know we'd end up fighting a terminator? It is entirely possible that they could find themselves in a roomful of seeker swarms, collectors emerging out of cloning pods that require techs and scientists to disable--just offhand positing a scenario.

The countermeasure was already created there is no reason for Mordin. Anything Mordin can disable Legion and Tali can probably do in half time. If they had to create another countermeasure those things take time. They'd have been dead before it was created.

We can do this all day if you're going to use meta-knowledge as justification that Miranda shouldn't say what she says, when both I and fongiel are arguing from purely what would be available knowledge to the entire squad in the ME universe at that point in time.
t

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...

We can do this all day if you're going to use meta-knowledge as justification that Miranda shouldn't say what she says, when both I and fongiel are arguing from purely what would be available knowledge to the entire squad in the ME universe at that point in time.
t

How is knowing the scientist guy is a scientist and not well suited for front line combat metagaming? 
How is knowing anything that needs to be hacked can be done by the Geth far better than Mordin metagaming?
How is realizing that if Mordin needs to create another countermeasure he's probably going to need a lab metagaming? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:25 .