15168 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Let me be absolutely clear. I like introverted, pragmatic, competent, cold to those she does not trust Miranda. If she loses those traits, she will no longer be a character I like. If I want a more traditionally appealing heroine, ME provides that in Tali and in ME Liara. I'm very fond of those characters, but it's Miranda that has completely and utterly captured my attention. I don't need everyone else to like her. I'm happy if they do, but I don't want her to change so much that she loses those traits I find desirable. If she does, I'm going to be looking like crazy for another character to fangirl shamelessly. My love for Miranda is not so absolute and unconditional that simply having her show up is enough. I fell for her personality.

Edit: what Nightwriter said.

Modifié par jtav, 02 novembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[hooahguy]

I love her look here...

[Ieldra]

t3HPrO wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Really? So you're willing to change her character concept solely for the sake of making her more acceptable to a bigger crowd? I'm sorry, it has never crossed my mind when I like Miranda to think that my choice needs to be eventually vindicated by some popular notion of what a "successful" character is. I couldn't care less about crap like that. Whereas you come across as someone who needs peer approval to grant value to your opinion. Maybe that's why you get so worked up over filmsy one-liners from trolls. Liking a character that the rest of the community eventually comes around to warming up is nice but that's all it is - a bonus. But attempting to justify character assassination as reason to make my favourite character more delectable to general tastes means I may as well save myself the heartache and go find some other more "pleasant" character to like in the first place.

*Facepalm*
Is Miranda thawing out somewhat defined as a 'character change' and 'character assasination'? Honestly, IDC if she's more popular or not, but you people seem to be positively terrified at the idea that Miranda'll become more popular. Get over yourselves; she's not an exclusive club, she has the right to be popular(one way or the other)...or not. Besides, her thawing up is an intergral part of her character development, so to stop that would be to derail her excellent character development.

Facepalm yourself. We're not terrified that Miranda becomes more popular - that would be very nice indeed - but by the idea that she becomes chickified, that they'll make her to conform to those over-emotionalized stereotypes we've all seen far too many times, and that she acquires the conventional morality the game already drops on us like a rainstorm of anvils.
I like Miranda what she's become in ME2. Both parts. The ruthless one who still says we shouldn't give the crew an escort on the CB, and the one who has tears in her eyes after speaking with Oriana. A defining aspect of her character is that she has both. If she loses that defining aspect, she becomes someone else, and will be a lot less interesting.

Edit:
I also agree with what jtav and Nightwriter said. *You* almost seem as if you want a Talified Miranda. Heh, strange, considering that you don't like her.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 novembre 2010 - 02:23 .

[Nightwriter]

I don't think we should be too harsh with t3HPrO here. I don't get the impression anyone's suggesting Miranda's character be changed - just that what's there could've been presented better, as I tried to explain.

Miranda's thawing out should've been an intrinsic part of her character arc and her romance, but in all honesty, I don't think it was done very well.

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Really? So you're willing to change her character concept solely for the sake of making her more acceptable to a bigger crowd? I'm sorry, it has never crossed my mind when I like Miranda to think that my choice needs to be eventually vindicated by some popular notion of what a "successful" character is. I couldn't care less about crap like that. Whereas you come across as someone who needs peer approval to grant value to your opinion. Maybe that's why you get so worked up over filmsy one-liners from trolls. Liking a character that the rest of the community eventually comes around to warming up is nice but that's all it is - a bonus. But attempting to justify character assassination as reason to make my favourite character more delectable to general tastes means I may as well save myself the heartache and go find some other more "pleasant" character to like in the first place.

*Facepalm*
Is Miranda thawing out somewhat defined as a 'character change' and 'character assasination'? Honestly, IDC if she's more popular or not, but you people seem to be positively terrified at the idea that Miranda'll become more popular. Get over yourselves; she's not an exclusive club, she has the right to be popular(one way or the other)...or not. Besides, her thawing up is an intergral part of her character development, so to stop that would be to derail her excellent character development.

Once and for all, can you stop with your blanket assertions and unjustified assumptions about the people in this thread? I find phrases like "you people" "get over yourselves" very short-sighted, not to mention insulting. When have we ever expressed any hint that we are terrified that she'd become too popular? Give me examples please.

Note that I am not against character development. But to justify that development as needing to make her more "popular" suggest you see her as interchangable with another "disagree-able" character that can also be subjected to the same treatment. If that's the case, there is no reason for liking a character for its own sake. There will be no intrinsic narrative value to a well-written and unique character with realistic motivations and multi-dimensional layers of characterisation.

[t3HPrO]

Ass shots and ridiculous outfit in combat must go. Gratuitous b**chiness such as on Lazarus also must go. Excessive coldness, out. Everything else, carry on.



@Ieldra2

SSDD= Same S**t Different Day

I agree. Service provided for a nominal cost. Or in Miranda's case, a pretty big one.

[t3HPrO]

@Elyvern

'Acceptable to a bigger crowd'. Well, not all of you are terrified, but you in particular seem to have an underlying fear of Miranda becoming more popular. Of course, if Miranda becomes Chambers that's definitely not what I want, but less ice would be better. And how would you react if a troll insulted your mother while she's lying in hospital?



@jtav, Ieldra2

So anyone showing a more emotion is automatically Talified? Of course, too

much emotion is bad, but I'm asking for just a half thaw. Is that too much to ask for? No wonder people are jumping off this thread, now I know why.

[t3HPrO]

Wait wait wait. Miranda is a femme fatale? Never felt that way. If you need a good example, take a look at Famke Janssen in Goldeneye.

[Ieldra]

t3HPrO wrote...
Gratuitous b**chiness such as on Lazarus also must go. Excessive coldness, out. Everything else, carry on.

Her detached rationality is a weapon and a defense, and a way of being professional. Imagine her having a really serious argument with Shepard. Coldly analyzing is what she'd become there if she really wanted to get to him. It's part of what she is. Not the only part, but a significant one. It's also a way to keep herself removed from others, with only a few select people like Oriana and Shepard having the privilege of seeing behind that screen. I'd like her to keep it.

Edit:
As an answer to your last post: we reacted the way we did because you suggested that her character development should be ruled by notions of popularity, and we all know who's the most popular one. I think we could, in fact, agree about agreeing with Nightwriter. Nobody here wants to ignore the character development already done. We only don't want it to go further in the emotional direction.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 novembre 2010 - 02:39 .

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

@Elyvern
'Acceptable to a bigger crowd'. Well, not all of you are terrified, but you in particular seem to have an underlying fear of Miranda becoming more popular. Of course, if Miranda becomes Chambers that's definitely not what I want, but less ice would be better. And how would you react if a troll insulted your mother while she's lying in hospital?

Nice way to take my line out of context. Did you forget the part where I say I couldn't care less that my opinion of Miranda would have to be justified by widespread approval? And how is your analogy anyway similar to the point we're arguing about? Because a better analogy using Miranda as a focal point would be "how would you react if someone laughs and think Miranda deserves her infertility". I would be angry, but I definitely wouldn't be the only one. Even non-fans will find that offensive.

[t3HPrO]

@Nightwriter

I don't want a complete overhaul, you got that right. And yes, Bioware failed badly at getting her thawing out fully fleshed out in game. Also, the Lazarus scene was a terrible attempt by BW to intro her as a 'badass spy chick'. That backfired big-time.



@Others

Ever heard of 'don't judge a book by it's cover'? Unless any of you here can actually get into Miranda's head and tell me she's a pure ice b**ch on the inside without a shadow of a doubt, please, don't force your views down my throat. I'll puke.

[jtav]

I'm reading a book by Guy Gavriel Kay right now. My mom is awaiting a Nora Roberts book from the library. I'd be happy if Kay was as popular as Roberts, but I wouldn't want him to write like her because I prefer the type of book he writes. My mom prefers the type of book Roberts writes, and there's nothing wrong with our differing tastes. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with people preferring different types of characters. I prefer morally ambiguous ice queens who are a bit b*tchy. Others may not. That's fine. But I like Miranda because she fits the archetype. I don't like the archetype because Miranda fits it.

[enayasoul]

jtav wrote...

Let me be absolutely clear. I like introverted, pragmatic, competent, cold to those she does not trust Miranda. If she loses those traits, she will no longer be a character I like. If I want a more traditionally appealing heroine, ME provides that in Tali and in ME Liara. I'm very fond of those characters, but it's Miranda that has completely and utterly captured my attention. I don't need everyone else to like her. I'm happy if they do, but I don't want her to change so much that she loses those traits I find desirable. If she does, I'm going to be looking like crazy for another character to fangirl shamelessly. My love for Miranda is not so absolute and unconditional that simply having her show up is enough. I fell for her personality.

Edit: what Nightwriter said.

I couldn't agree more with jtav and NIghtwriter.  I like her being a bit cold and maybe ****y but she also has that other side of her. When she meets her sister.  She is capable of showing emotions and caring.  I don't think she should be likeable to everyone.  That would be silly.

But I also like Liara's change in ME1 to ME2... she's grown a bit.   I like Tali but she is still very young to me and my maleshep only thinks of her as a close friend.  She needs to mature more. To me she seems a young adult. 

Modifié par enayasoul, 02 novembre 2010 - 03:14 .

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

@Others
Ever heard of 'don't judge a book by it's cover'? Unless any of you here can actually get into Miranda's head and tell me she's a pure ice b**ch on the inside without a shadow of a doubt, please, don't force your views down my throat. I'll puke.

To this, I can only say: look in the mirror first.

I'm done.

Modifié par Elyvern, 02 novembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Ieldra]

@t3HPrO:
Our positions may not be very far apart, in fact. It's the presentation that matters: you barge in making snide insinuations about those people who like Miranda less emotional, and then act surprised when these people react as if you were Khalisah al-Jilani...

...and it gets worse from there, judging by your last post. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 novembre 2010 - 02:49 .

[enayasoul]

hooahguy wrote...

I love her look here...

me too!  Pretty flirty, sexy eyes.  Those EYES!  Beautiful!

[t3HPrO]

@Ieldra2

So now it's wrong to ask people not to shove their viewpoints down my throat? Tell me, how am I wrong in making that comparison? There's nothing negative attached to it.



@Elyvern

Oh really? I come in and say "Hi, I like Miranda more sensitive." And then I immediately get countered by "No we like her to be b**chy, you're character assassinating her, you're tali-izing her" and so on and so forth. So tell me, really, who's forcing their viewpoints across now?

[Pacifien]

Chill it with the accusations of who is worse than who. Just be civil.

[enayasoul]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Her detached rationality is a weapon and a defense, and a way of being professional. Imagine her having a really serious argument with Shepard. Coldly analyzing is what she'd become there if she really wanted to get to him. It's part of what she is. Not the only part, but a significant one. It's also a way to keep herself removed from others, with only a few select people like Oriana and Shepard having the privilege of seeing behind that screen. I'd like her to keep it.

Absolutely agree!  



Has me thinking.... their first fight as a couple would be.   That could be pretty explosive and sexy at the same time. Maleshep likes being renagade with her, teasing her, til she gets flustered. tee hee...  

But yeah, she could be pretty cold if she needed to be.

[Prudii Aden]

Guys - step back, take time out. Remember - no hating.

[Nightwriter]

I don't think I've ever been mentioned in so many edits. I'm beginning to feel like an afterthought.

And let's calm down, everyone, everybody just squeeze their eyes shut and think of the Miri hug scene until you're full of feelings of love and misty-eyed contentment and stuff.

t3HPrO wrote...

Ass shots and ridiculous outfit in combat must go. Gratuitous b**chiness such as on Lazarus also must go. Excessive coldness, out. Everything else, carry on.

@Nightwriter
I don't want a complete overhaul, you got that right. And yes, Bioware failed badly at getting her thawing out fully fleshed out in game. Also, the Lazarus scene was a terrible attempt by BW to intro her as a 'badass spy chick'. That backfired big-time.

Now - if we can be nice about this - I'd like to say I dearly liked the idea behind Miranda's Lazarus b*tchiness, but not necessarily the delivery.

So if it's the delivery you're disputing, I agree. If it's just the idea of her being b*tchy at first, I disagree.

What I liked about Miranda initially? That b*tchiness. She's not friendly at first; her impression of you is actually negative. I find that interesting and engaging. I realize there's something that needs to be earned or achieved here. I need to make some kind of impression, I need to win her over, and it won't be easy. I love that.

Turns out, it was easy. Didn't like that so much.

[t3HPrO]

Maybe it's just a bad idea to debate something with people jumping down my throat next to my mum's hospital bed. Standing down.

[Prudii Aden]

Indeed Nightwriter - the loyalist vid made me determined to find out whether there was any truth in the advertising, and lo and behold, there was. That Miranda did not immediately succumb to the Shepard Charm (TM, pat. pending) and that she was forthright and continued to be so throughout, just made things all the more sweeter.



Ahem.

[jtav]

I'm writing two stories featuring Miranda at the moment and I've noticed how many romance novel tropes map pretty well onto Miranda. The funny thing is that they're tropes usually associated with a hero. She's sexually experienced, with most of that experience being sex that means nothing to her. This changes when she meets her story-intended partner. She's older than Shepard, which is an inversion of the usual dynamic. She'll do anything to protect Oriana, but is convinced that she could only complicate her sister's life. That kind of absolute devotion--specifically the willingness to kill--combined with a certain self-loathing is usually a male trait in romance stories. I wonder if that's why I find it easy to write her physically saving Shepard or Liara. In Shepard's case, she does so despite not liking him and gets injured in the process. Again, usually a hero trope.No idea where I'm going with this, but I thought I'd share.

[t3HPrO]

@nightwriter

I found it to be excessive on Lazarus. On Minuteman, it wasn't so bad as I could chalk it up to being completely job-focused. However, there still isn't much of an excuse for treating Shep and Jacob like kids after killing Wilson(guy had it coming). Besides, with both Miri and Jacob being combat trained biotics, you would think that apprehending Wilson would be child's play...