15168 réponses à ce sujet

[fongiel24]

I'd prefer Persistence of Memory right now. I want to see where Miranda and Liara go next.

Modifié par fongiel24, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:07 .

[jtav]

Okay, then. I'll do my best. I guess the lizard can wait a but longer.

[Ieldra]

I just popped into the Miranda group discussions to see what's going on there. The Miranda fanbase is really split down the middle. Too bad, since we all agree on 90% of everything.  Outside of the big contentious issue I've seen nothing there I'd disagree with - well, with the exception of being referred to as an "idiot", which I don't like  Anyway, I wish we could agree to disagree more peacefully and leave that topic alone.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[jtav]

I could complain about the romance and you could all gang up on me again.

I've popped in there as well. The split is a shame, but sometimes I feel like we're discussing two entirely different characters who share a VA.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Skyline_Stanza wrote...
I've a question to pose to the Miranda board: If Miranda could have control over a squad like Shepard could, which members of the Normandy 2.0 squad would she take and why?

It depends on the mission. Miranda is a professional and would take those who fit the mission best. So: what is the mission?

Actually, this anwers my question, believe it or not.
 
I'm writing a fanfic that splits POV between Shep, Garrus and Miranda. Miranda's going to be leading a squad to do some of the sidemissions of ME2 while Shep goes off recruiting more specialists/doing a loyalty mission. I figured it was an interesting way for the squadmates to work off each others strengths and weaknesses as well as keeping thier combat skills sharp.  

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I could complain about the romance and you could all gang up on me again.

LOL. Fortunately for you, it's far easier to agree to disagree about the romance, because it isn't something that defines Miranda. The same applies to the question debated on the group if Miranda was attracted to Shepard before the LM. Regardless how you weigh the evidence, it's not very important in the end. However, why exactly Miranda chooses to resign if you destroy the base, and whether there is enough justification in the game to make it appear like believable character development rather than a contrivance to keep her with Paragon Shepards who cut their ties with TIM, the answer to that does define her.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I just popped into the Miranda group discussions to see what's going on there. The Miranda fanbase is really split down the middle. Too bad, since we all agree on 90% of everything.  Outside of the big contentious issue I've seen nothing there I'd disagree with - well, with the exception of being referred to as an "idiot", which I don't like  Anyway, I wish we could agree to disagree more peacefully and leave that topic alone.

The Miranda groups are still active? I checked up on any of them for months.

[jtav]

For what it's worth, I think she was physically attracted to Shepard before her LM, just because that's usually a judgment you make fairly quickly. I doubt she considers him relationship material before her LM, and the idea that she's "in love" or pining for him annoys me.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I could complain about the romance and you could all gang up on me again.

LOL. Fortunately for you, it's far easier to agree to disagree about the romance, because it isn't something that defines Miranda. The same applies to the question debated on the group if Miranda was attracted to Shepard before the LM. Regardless how you weigh the evidence, it's not very important in the end. However, why exactly Miranda chooses to resign if you destroy the base, and whether there is enough justification in the game to make it appear like believable character development rather than a contrivance to keep her with Paragon Shepards who cut their ties with TIM, the answer to that does define her.

Would you say that, due to a paragon Shep's influence, that Miranda's personality changes over the course of the game? I mean, here's a woman who, in my opinion, is an 'end's justify the means' person, so why did she not agree with the Illusive Man's option to keep the base?

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
The Miranda groups are still active? I checked up on any of them for months.

Active again, would be more to the point. Though I'm getting the distinct impression there's a coordinated effort to ignore me there after I posted a reply.

But back to Miranda: I'm getting the impression that some people's vision has changed through the months since ME2 came out. For that reason I'd like to ask again: if you could envision a post-ME3 epilogue for Miranda, with or without Shepard, what would it be?

Miranda waits:


  

[jtav]

This would probably never happen but I look kind of like to see her become Liara's 2IC. The Broker's right. She'd make an excellent agent. And, well, a shipper can dream, can't she? Failing that, I'd like to see her putting those tremendous skills of hers to use in some capacity, whether it be science or intelligent work. I'm waffling on my Illusive Woman idea because a great deal of TIM's success seems tied to his charisma, and I don't know if Miranda can compensate effectively. I don't want her to sit at home and bake cookies, but I like the idea of her having an adoptive daughter. I'm not sure who her partner would be in that case, or if she's raising the child alone.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I could complain about the romance and you could all gang up on me again.

LOL. Fortunately for you, it's far easier to agree to disagree about the romance, because it isn't something that defines Miranda. The same applies to the question debated on the group if Miranda was attracted to Shepard before the LM. Regardless how you weigh the evidence, it's not very important in the end. However, why exactly Miranda chooses to resign if you destroy the base, and whether there is enough justification in the game to make it appear like believable character development rather than a contrivance to keep her with Paragon Shepards who cut their ties with TIM, the answer to that does define her.

That part bothers me so much I'm going to retcon it in my fic. Speaking of which, our discussion tonight has prompted me to add a new conversation segment to my chapter 1. And I want to say ii hate how the Sheploo rape face is ingrained in my mind now. it's awful when I feel I have to abandon particular dialogues because upon reading, that's the first thing that pops into my mind.

Edit: my post ME3-epilogue is the fic I have to wait to post on FF.net. 1 day and counting...

Modifié par Elyvern, 03 novembre 2010 - 09:02 .

[Ieldra]

Skyline_Stanza wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I could complain about the romance and you could all gang up on me again.

LOL. Fortunately for you, it's far easier to agree to disagree about the romance, because it isn't something that defines Miranda. The same applies to the question debated on the group if Miranda was attracted to Shepard before the LM. Regardless how you weigh the evidence, it's not very important in the end. However, why exactly Miranda chooses to resign if you destroy the base, and whether there is enough justification in the game to make it appear like believable character development rather than a contrivance to keep her with Paragon Shepards who cut their ties with TIM, the answer to that does define her.

Would you say that, due to a paragon Shep's influence, that Miranda's personality changes over the course of the game? I mean, here's a woman who, in my opinion, is an 'end's justify the means' person, so why did she not agree with the Illusive Man's option to keep the base?

That exactly is the big disagreement at the heart of the split fanbase:

Camp 1: Believes that Miranda's supporting the destruction of the base and her resignment is an out-of-character moment, that it comes out of the blue and goes so much against her character concept that it can't be explained by plausible character development. There are a number of arguments brought forward to that effect, among them that her advice after the crew abduction and on the CB mission is still pretty much pragmatic, and that while she opens up to Shepard, her general stance doesn't really change much. This camp has significant overlap with those who don't want Miranda to lose most of her pragmatism in ME3, and who fear chickification and badass decay more than anything else.

Camp 2: Believes that Miranda's personality changed so much, through Shepard's influence or something else, that she resigns from Cerberus and supports destroying the base, and that this development is plausible and believable. The main arguments are that the base dialogue itself is evidence that exactly this happens, and that this is more important than any apparent contradictions on the way there, and/or that the CB decision itself is a turning point so radical that it changes her outlook in a very short time. This camp overlaps significantly with those who would like a more conventional happy ending for Miranda and Shepard, and who want her to be more emotional and less pragmatic.

There is room for compromise, but of course every camp fears that Bioware will make Miranda develop too much in the direction favored by the other.

I am firmly in Camp 1. Even more so since I think that the arguments for keeping the base are far stronger than those for destroying it, so Miranda's support for that decision goes against (1) most character development shown so far, (2) the character concept, (3) her pragmatism, (4) 15-20 years as a mostly pragmatic Cerberus operative. For me, that's just too much to swallow.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I could complain about the romance and you could all gang up on me again.

LOL. Fortunately for you, it's far easier to agree to disagree about the romance, because it isn't something that defines Miranda. The same applies to the question debated on the group if Miranda was attracted to Shepard before the LM. Regardless how you weigh the evidence, it's not very important in the end. However, why exactly Miranda chooses to resign if you destroy the base, and whether there is enough justification in the game to make it appear like believable character development rather than a contrivance to keep her with Paragon Shepards who cut their ties with TIM, the answer to that does define her.

That part bothers me so much I'm going to retcon it in my fic. Speaking of which, our discussion tonight has prompted me to add a new conversation segment to my chapter 1. And I want to say ii hate how the Sheploo rape face is ingrained in my mind now. it's awful when I feel I have to abandon particular dialogues because upon reading, that's the first thing that pops into my mind.
Edit: my post ME3-epilogue is the fic I have to wait to post on FF.net. 1 day and counting...

I'm looking forward to it - and the conversation segment I don't know yet - very much!

I can ignore Shepard's rape face rather well, mostly because it doesn't look nearly as bad on my Shepards. But it's annoying how often it pops up on various threads.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That exactly is the big disagreement at the heart of the split fanbase:

Camp 1: Believes that Miranda's supporting the destruction of the base and her resignment is an out-of-character moment, that it comes out of the blue and goes so much against her character concept that it can't be explained by plausible character development. There are a number of arguments brought forward to that effect, among them that her advice after the crew abduction and on the CB mission is still pretty much pragmatic, and that while she opens up to Shepard, her general stance doesn't really change much. This camp has significant overlap with those who don't want Miranda to lose most of her pragmatism in ME3, and who fear chickification and badass decay more than anything else.

Camp 2: Believes that Miranda's personality changed so much, through Shepard's influence or something else, that she resigns from Cerberus and supports destroying the base, and that this development is plausible and believable. The main arguments are that the base dialogue itself is evidence that exactly this happens, and that this is more important than any apparent contradictions on the way there, and/or that the CB decision itself is a turning point so radical that it changes her outlook in a very short time. This camp overlaps significantly with those who would like a more conventional happy ending for Miranda and Shepard, and who want her to be more emotional and less pragmatic.

There is room for compromise, but of course every camp fears that Bioware will make Miranda develop too much in the direction favored by the other.

I am firmly in Camp 1. Even more so since I think that the arguments for keeping the base are far stronger than those for destroying it, so Miranda's support for that decision goes against (1) most character development shown so far, (2) the character concept, (3) her pragmatism, (4) 15-20 years as a mostly pragmatic Cerberus operative. For me, that's just too much to swallow.

Wow, that certainly is quite a large schism within the Miranda fanbase. While I normally have my Shep trash the base, on the grounds that the Illusive Man might become more  arrogant and try to use Reaper tech to give humanity an edge over aliens, I can see where the arguement to keep the base is just as plausible. Quite the conundrum we have here.

[philiposophy]

Even if Miranda is leaning more to Shepard, she should still recognize the value of the base even when TIM talks about "human dominance against the reapers and beyond". One of the reasons she's with Cerberus is because she wants humanity to have an edge to allow them at least parity in galactic politics. She would not be at all worried about TIM using it to give humanity a leg up. Hell, she'd support it.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Camp 1: Believes that Miranda's supporting the destruction of the base and her resignment is an out-of-character moment, that it comes out of the blue and goes so much against her character concept that it can't be explained by plausible character development. There are a number of arguments brought forward to that effect, among them that her advice after the crew abduction and on the CB mission is still pretty much pragmatic, and that while she opens up to Shepard, her general stance doesn't really change much. This camp has significant overlap with those who don't want Miranda to lose most of her pragmatism in ME3, and who fear chickification and badass decay more than anything else.

Camp 2: Believes that Miranda's personality changed so much, through Shepard's influence or something else, that she resigns from Cerberus and supports destroying the base, and that this development is plausible and believable. The main arguments are that the base dialogue itself is evidence that exactly this happens, and that this is more important than any apparent contradictions on the way there, and/or that the CB decision itself is a turning point so radical that it changes her outlook in a very short time. This camp overlaps significantly with those who would like a more conventional happy ending for Miranda and Shepard, and who want her to be more emotional and less pragmatic.

There is room for compromise, but of course every camp fears that Bioware will make Miranda develop too much in the direction favored by the other.

I am firmly in Camp 1. Even more so since I think that the arguments for keeping the base are far stronger than those for destroying it, so Miranda's support for that decision goes against (1) most character development shown so far, (2) the character concept, (3) her pragmatism, (4) 15-20 years as a mostly pragmatic Cerberus operative. For me, that's just too much to swallow.

I fall quite firmly into Camp 1 as well, with the caveat that I think Camp 2's views are plausible but lack the necessary in-game justification from Miranda (either from her directly telling Shepard or showing it through her actions) to allow us to draw a line between the woman who was so willing to defend Cerberus' "whatever it takes" philosophy on the Normandy and the woman who wants to blow up the base because "it feels like a betrayal". If Miranda had given a more reasonable and less emotional explanation for why she's against keeping the base, I might have bought it but as it is now, I have a really hard time accepting her decision as anything but OOC.

[Ieldra]

Skyline_Stanza wrote...
Wow, that certainly is quite a large schism within the Miranda fanbase. While I normally have my Shep trash the base, on the grounds that the Illusive Man might become more  arrogant and try to use Reaper tech to give humanity an edge over aliens, I can see where the arguement to keep the base is just as plausible. Quite the conundrum we have here.

It wouldn't be as hard for me to accept Miranda's resignment if it wasn't tied to the CB decision. IMO, paint TIM as evil as you can, and he's still the lesser evil compared to the Reapers, which is why destroying an enemy HQ with which we could close the technological gap to the Reapers is stupid. So, in my firm opinion, a Miranda who supports destroying the base is acting stupid. I do not think Miranda would act stupid there. Result: a contradiction.

Please note that I'm posting this uncensored opinion not in order to provoke, but to explain why I feel so strongly about this.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2010 - 10:16 .

[philiposophy]

What's more problematic is that camp 2 can only really happen if you contrive everything else, like taking Miranda to Pragia and choosing certain dialogue options on the collector ship. If you don't do that, she won't have shown much (and of course she doesn't have anything unique to say on Pragia, does she?) of a growing distrust of Cerberus.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Skyline_Stanza wrote...
Wow, that certainly is quite a large schism within the Miranda fanbase. While I normally have my Shep trash the base, on the grounds that the Illusive Man might become more  arrogant and try to use Reaper tech to give humanity an edge over aliens, I can see where the arguement to keep the base is just as plausible. Quite the conundrum we have here.

It wouldn't be so bad for me to accept Miranda's resignment if it wasn't tied to the CB decision. IMO, paint TIM as evil as you can, and he's still the lesser evil compared to the Reapers, which is why destroying an enemy HQ with which we could close the technological gap to the Reapers is stupid. So, in my firm opinion, a Miranda who supports destroying the base is acting stupid. I do not think Miranda would act stupid there. Result: a contradiction.

Please note that I'm posting this uncensored opinion not in order to provoke, but to explain why I feel so strongly about this.

Oh no, I understand quite clearly, and now that you mention it, it irks me that Miranda would do this. While I still feel as though the base should be destroyed, Miranda's view should be different, as you've stated so in your posts. Ah, well, this is what fanfiction is for, perhaps?  

[Ieldra]

philiposophy wrote...
What's more problematic is that camp 2 can only really happen if you contrive everything else, like taking Miranda to Pragia and choosing certain dialogue options on the collector ship. If you don't do that, she won't have shown much (and of course she doesn't have anything unique to say on Pragia, does she?) of a growing distrust of Cerberus.

On Pragia, at some point she says "They kept children here?" in a tone that clearly shows she can't believe anyone would do that. This is why we all think she wouldn't support the experiments there. But it doesn't make her distrust TIM, because there actually is some evidence that that cell was indeed out of control and it's easy to discount it as a rogue cell. I could see her resign over something like that, if someone convinced her that TIM had approved or didn't care. I can see her resigning over other early Cerberus experiments, since those, at the time when they were conducted, couldn't have been justified by such an ultimate necessity as a fight for the survival of everything. But the CB? Not there.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2010 - 10:29 .

[philiposophy]

I meant that she doesn't say anything that other squadmates do. I know that Miranda would be appalled at the Teltin facility but using it to justify her eroding trust in TIM and Cerberus is weak because it is no more development for her than for, say, Mordin and for the reasons you mentioned.

[Ieldra]

Skyline_Stanza wrote...
Ah, well, this is what fanfiction is for, perhaps?  

It all depends on how much Bioware lets the CB decision influence the characters. In my games I keep the base in all maleShep games but one, and while I'm not quite happy with being tied to Cerberus, and with Miranda being tied to Cerberus, it's more convincing than the only alternative.

I wish I could keep the CB, but get more evidence at Pragia to convince Miranda that it was a real Cerberus project, and that TIM didn't care, and make her resign over that. One might not believe it from what I usually post, but I do like that there is an option to make Miranda resign. It's just so badly done that I can't believe it.

@fongiel:
If Miranda had said something like "I know Cerberus' track record with Reaper technology. Keeping this base will end up helping the Reapers more than us.", that would have taken the sting out of it. I would likely still disagree with her, but it would be an in-game disagreement, and it would not have felt OOC.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[philiposophy]

Ieldra2, would you really want Miranda out of Cerberus so soon? I currently see her as a useful link to TIM's vast power and resources that may well be necessary in the coming war. I would probably support her leaving Cerberus in the future (if the organization cannot be altered in some ways), but right now, I'm not so sure.

[Ieldra]

philiposophy wrote...
Ieldra2, would you really want Miranda out of Cerberus so soon? I currently see her as a useful link to TIM's vast power and resources that may well be necessary in the coming war. I would probably support her leaving Cerberus in the future (if the organization cannot be altered in some ways), but right now, I'm not so sure.

In my personal canon game, no. She'll stay with Cerberus for some more time there. But I would like it if a convincing option to resign early existed, since I occasionally play Shepards for whom that would have been desirable. I used to post I'd like her to take over the organization and reshape it in ME3, but as a source of intelligence, it's become surplus to requirements after LotSB. On the other hand, humanity still needs its STG, and perhaps its better if such an organization doesn't work under the shadow of Cerberus. In the end, I'd prefer her to have her own organization and not be subject to anyone's instructions.