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[philiposophy]

Ah I see what you mean. Yes, an option like that which was sensible would have been nice.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I know Cerberus' track record with Reaper technology. Keeping this base will end up helping the Reapers more than us."

That's my in-game justification for destroying the base. If she had said that, I would have agreed with her. But now? No way. Especially since the genophage cure is the exact same situation, except that keeping the tainted research is the Paragon choice. To top it off, the evidence for the change in her personality is entirely optional. Her loyalty mission should have caused her to doubt Cerberus in some way. If you didn't do her LM, she's turns on you if you destroy the base because she still believes in what Cerberus stands for. It would have also made her confrontation with Jack more interesting because they're both grappling with Cerberus in their own ways. Tali and Legion's missions are both about the geth and what should be done with them. It would have been nice for the Miranda/Jack confrontation to have a similar connection.

[GracefulChicken]

:> Me and Miranda have the same last name. First time I played ME2 I had to do a double take because I didnt think I was hearing the name right. But I was. Same pronounciation, same spelling. For that reason, I instantly started to love Miranda.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

In my personal canon game, no. She'll stay with Cerberus for some more time there. But I would like it if a convincing option to resign early existed, since I occasionally play Shepards for whom that would have been desirable. I used to post I'd like her to take over the organization and reshape it in ME3, but as a source of intelligence, it's become surplus to requirements after LotSB. On the other hand, humanity still needs its STG, and perhaps its better if such an organization doesn't work under the shadow of Cerberus. In the end, I'd prefer her to have her own organization and not be subject to anyone's instructions.  

I actually find it quite surprising that the Alliance doesn't already have something like the STG. As a smaller power, I would think humanity would have a very capable intelligence/black ops agency to help it even the odds.

GracefulChicken wrote...

:> Me and Miranda have the
same last name. First time I played ME2 I had to do a double take
because I didnt think I was hearing the name right. But I was. Same
pronounciation, same spelling. For that reason, I instantly started to
love Miranda.

Lol, well Lawson isn't exactly a rare surname in Anglo-Saxon countries. I know two.

[jtav]

There's the Alliance Intelligence Agency, but that's not quite the same thing. I can't see her working for them. Too much paperwork.



fongiel, Ieldra, I'm afraid Miranda/Thane has won out for the moment. I've rewritten the beginning of chapter 3 of Persistence of Memory so many times that I don't even want to look at it. Can I interest you in a fic excerpt instead?

[enayasoul]

Skyline_Stanza wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I could complain about the romance and you could all gang up on me again.

LOL. Fortunately for you, it's far easier to agree to disagree about the romance, because it isn't something that defines Miranda. The same applies to the question debated on the group if Miranda was attracted to Shepard before the LM. Regardless how you weigh the evidence, it's not very important in the end. However, why exactly Miranda chooses to resign if you destroy the base, and whether there is enough justification in the game to make it appear like believable character development rather than a contrivance to keep her with Paragon Shepards who cut their ties with TIM, the answer to that does define her.

Would you say that, due to a paragon Shep's influence, that Miranda's personality changes over the course of the game? I mean, here's a woman who, in my opinion, is an 'end's justify the means' person, so why did she not agree with the Illusive Man's option to keep the base?

Maybe it's as simple as she trusted Shepard's decision, influence perhaps... I'd like to believe that all the missions she's been on have in some way shaped her thinking about Shepard, Cerberus and failed projects? but I also think it hits close to home.  Illusive man wanted Miranda to stop Shepard... and Shepard is their best shot at saving humanity! And maybe the being used as just a tool... I think she said it because if TIM was going to do that to someone like Shepard what about her when he's doing using her?!

I touch on this point of view in my fic... of why I had Shepard who was purely renegade to the bad guys but turned to the paragon option in destroying the base.  I don't think Miranda will totally abandon her role from Cerberus after she has time to think. Issues with her sister's safety and her own!  But I think she is does want to stick by Shepard by what he has done thus far and see it through to the end.

As to Miranda being attracted to Shepard before her LM... Yes, she probably was.  I was replaying her LM last night and I thought she was in a way flirting by how she says that one line about... "Watch what your shooting at..."
Or maybe it was just how she said it made me think she was.

Modifié par enayasoul, 04 novembre 2010 - 12:54 .

[enayasoul]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I know Cerberus' track record with Reaper technology. Keeping this base will end up helping the Reapers more than us."

That's my in-game justification for destroying the base. If she had said that, I would have agreed with her. But now? No way. Especially since the genophage cure is the exact same situation, except that keeping the tainted research is the Paragon choice. To top it off, the evidence for the change in her personality is entirely optional. Her loyalty mission should have caused her to doubt Cerberus in some way. If you didn't do her LM, she's turns on you if you destroy the base because she still believes in what Cerberus stands for. It would have also made her confrontation with Jack more interesting because they're both grappling with Cerberus in their own ways. Tali and Legion's missions are both about the geth and what should be done with them. It would have been nice for the Miranda/Jack confrontation to have a similar connection.

Yes, my intial reaction was she would shoot me in the back to stop me. haha she didn't.  PHEW! *wipes the sweat from brow*

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

fongiel, Ieldra, I'm afraid Miranda/Thane has won out for the moment. I've rewritten the beginning of chapter 3 of Persistence of Memory so many times that I don't even want to look at it. Can I interest you in a fic excerpt instead?

Sure, let's have a look at it.

[jtav]

I'm actually interested in what you think of the Shepard/Miranda dynamic. They have no romantic interest in each other, but their relationship is the second most important one in the story. Part's of this were written before LotSB so her infertility has been minimized.

The door opened and Miranda looked up. Shepard. He'd changed out of his armor, and his shirt was untucked. Miranda frowned. The SR-2 wasn't a military vessel, but Shepard preferred to run it like one. Protocol and regulations had always been a comfort to him, doubly so now that he was uneasily allied with Cerberus. No one on either Normandy had seen him with his shirt untucked since Ilos. He pointed to the datapad she was reading. "Am I disturbing you?" He still sounded tired. Her frown deepened. Shepard could be astonishingly arrogant and cavalier about his safety, but he normally had the sense to take a nap after fighting all night.

"Just trying to find out more about our newest team member." She put the datapad to the side. "You should get some sleep."

"Can't sleep." He flung himself into the chair in the far corner. His legs sprawled outward, and Miranda fought the urge to tell him to sit up straight. Tousled blond hair fell in front of his face. He looked, she thought, like a very untidy lion. The fingers of his left hand drummed on the armrest. A unconscious, nervous gesture—one of the many small details that she and the rest of the Lazarus team had been responsible for re-creating, along with a fondness for singing in the shower and preferring to sleep on his left side. None of this truly impacted his ability to battle the Collectors or Reapers, but the Illusive Man had wanted Shepard back exactly as he was and Miranda took pride in a job well done.

It was a curious intimacy they shared. She didn't like him, but it had been her job to understand him. She knew who his first love had been and how much he loved Liara T'Soni despite their efforts to be discreet and Liara's frustrating insistence on referring to him as her friend whenever she spoke of him to Miranda. She knew that he'd gotten blind drunk after sending Ashley Williams to her death on Virmire. She had been reconstructed his memories, both good and bad, and given them back to him. She was the one who had transformed a piece of decaying flesh back into a human being. Before they ever spoke, she knew that he never raised his voice when angry because she was the one who had made him that way. She'd never wanted children. The discovery of the tumor six years ago had been almost a relief. She'd never have to choose between having a family and serving humanity as best she could. Still, there was power in creating life and the man sitting in front of her was her creation, even if she had only been following a template laid down years ago.

He looked at her, and for a moment he looked like the unremarkable young man he had been before Elysium and before he started doing the impossible on a regular basis. He cleared his throat. "I ran into Liara in Nos Astra. She's working as an information broker now. Did you know?"

"No, I didn't." She'd liked Liara when she'd met her two years previously. In another life, they might have been friends. Whatever chance there had been of that had been sacrificed to the Lazarus Project. The station had been completely off the grid. She'd neither sent nor received any messages in those two years. All her relationships had atrophied or died from neglect. Her love for Niket and Oriana had survived, but precious little else had. Liara had probably been glad to forget her, in any case.

"Well, she is. Threatening to flay people alive if they don't pay her." His fingers stopped their incessant drumbeat, and he ran a hand through his hair. "I thought I knew her. She was always such a good person. She even felt sorry for Saren. Saren! Something else must be going on. She said she had debts to repay. Maybe she got into her head with something and can't get out? I thought she might know because..." he trailed off.

"Because what?"

"Before he gave me the SR-2, the Illusive Man told me that she was working for the Shadow Broker. I called him a liar. Liara's a damn archaeologist. More than that, she's a good person. Cloak and dagger stuff just isn't her style. I figured Cerberus must know something they're not telling, and you're the only Cerberus officer that I know. You must have access to some classified data or something. Is the Shadow Broker blackmailing her?"

Miranda steepled her fingers and considered her next words very carefully. Liara would work for the Shadow Broker when the hanar were rude. She knew that. The Illusive Man knew that. So why would he tell Shepard such a blatant lie?

Because he doesn't want Shepard to know what happened on Omega. She stiffened slightly. There's no immediately apparent reason not to tell him what happened, but even she knew only a fraction of what the Illusive Man was planning at any moment. Perhaps he had even set Liara up as an information broker for reasons of his own. She didn't think it was likely, but it was still possible. It would be wise not to divulge too much until she knew more. "I don't know anything about her being blackmailed, no."

His eyes narrowed and his jaw set. "I see. I guess it was too much to hope for the galaxy to start making sense again. But if she is in trouble..." He leaned forward and fixed her gaze with his own. "She says she needs someone she trusts to hack terminals so she can repay those debts I mentioned. I don't know what's going on, but I'm not going to let her get hacked up by some corporate trader's hired muscle!"

Ah. So that explained why he was here in the middle of the night. "And you need me to hack those terminals for you." It wasn't a question. Shepard was a brilliant soldier and an above average biotic, but he had no technical skills to speak of, certainly not enough to get past Nos Astra's computer security.

His eyes lit up. Miranda suppressed a sigh. Shepard had been easy to read from the moment they'd met properly on Lazarus Station. It ought to have been a weakness, would have been a weakness in another man. She would never understand how he wasn't an emotionally scarred wreck. It must have been another case of that infallible Shepard luck.

Shepard was too busy being grateful that he wouldn't have to explain to notice her irritation. "Exactly. You're the closest thing to a dedicated tech we have." He licked his lips. "So, will you? It shouldn't take more than a few hours, and you can have shore leave for the rest of the day if you want it." He smiled, but the grin didn't seem as easy as he usually was.

He needs me. The Savior of the Citadel needed her to help him with his girlfriend. There was a part of her that took a grim pleasure in that. She didn't like that part of her. And a focused commander was a more effective commander. "Of course."

"Thank you." He bolted to his feet and headed toward the door before turning back at the last moment. "If you get a chance to tell me what's going on with Liara..."

"I'll tell you everything I can," she said quickly. It wasn't even a lie, really.

[enayasoul]

jtav wrote...

I'm actually interested in what you think of the Shepard/Miranda dynamic. They have no romantic interest in each other, but their relationship is the second most important one in the story. Part's of this were written before LotSB so her infertility has been minimized.

I think what you've written is really great. I like the Shepard/Miranda dynamic so far.   More, more. 

[enayasoul]

do you think Miranda is more of stay at home with champagne and dinner or out dancing in a club, eating and drinking... both seem nice but I am thinking the dance club idea would fit more, less boring, and more action. I know she commented on one of the night clubs in the game but can't remember if she liked or disliked it. hmm...

Male shep is planning a "date night"  in my fic

Modifié par enayasoul, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:07 .

[fongiel24]

Looks good so far, jtav. Shepard actually seems like a real person instead of a caricature. Miranda's feelings towards him also feel believable. I'm not sure I understood the part about TIM lying to Shepard though.

enayasoul wrote...

do you think Miranda is more of stay at home with champagne and dinner or out dancing in a club, eating and drinking... both seem nice but I am thinking the dance club idea would fit more, less boring, and more action. I know she commented on one of the night clubs in the game but can't remember if she liked or disliked it. hmm...

Male shep is planning a "date night"  in my fic

Neither. I think Miranda's ideal date involves dinner at a nice restaurant, then catching an opera or an orchestra. Miranda doesn't strike me as a big clubber.

[Pwnisher]

Really? Last time I checked Miranda and I got freaky in the engine room. I'd say she's a partyer.

[enayasoul]

fongiel24 wrote...

Looks good so far, jtav. Shepard actually seems like a real person instead of a caricature. Miranda's feelings towards him also feel believable. I'm not sure I understood the part about TIM lying to Shepard though.

enayasoul wrote...

do you think Miranda is more of stay at home with champagne and dinner or out dancing in a club, eating and drinking... both seem nice but I am thinking the dance club idea would fit more, less boring, and more action. I know she commented on one of the night clubs in the game but can't remember if she liked or disliked it. hmm...

Male shep is planning a "date night"  in my fic

Neither. I think Miranda's ideal date involves dinner at a nice restaurant, then catching an opera or an orchestra. Miranda doesn't strike me as a big clubber.

I think TIM tried to mislead Shepard into believing that Liara was evil and working with the Shadow Broker.  Bad, Bad TIM... trying to manipulate the facts to his liking.

You know I could see Miranda doing the dinner at a nice resturant, watching opera or orchestra... but would Shepard? I think he'd fall asleep.  may do that later.

I am gonna go with a high end dance club, with heavy dance beats.    Get the blood going... She might just like it and would it really kill her to have some fun!    Shepard enjoys teasing and playing with her. Being a bad boy renegade.  Already began writing down ideas plus I have something sinister in mind with some bad business men.

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...
Do you think Miranda is more of stay at home with champagne and dinner or out dancing in a club, eating and drinking... both seem nice but I am thinking the dance club idea would fit more, less boring, and more action. I know she commented on one of the night clubs in the game but can't remember if she liked or disliked it. hmm...

It's interesting that this question comes up as I'm writing about Miranda dancing.

I think Miranda is not much of a clubber. "Getting the blood going" is something she'd actively dislike. If anything, she'd prefer ballroom-style dancing of the old-fashioned variety, something more formal and contained that appeals to her sense of beauty instead of the more disorderly goings-on at a club. Being a bit uncomfortable with her emotions, she'd also prefer a way of expressing herself that's more contained by form. At a club, her idea of enjoyment would probably be to stand in an inconspicuous place and try to gauge people's personality traits by the way they dance while casually rejecting offers of companionship. This is not a joke, I do think she'd enjoy that and have a lot of fun with it.

And now you may all venture a guess about which dance Miranda will perform in in my fanfic...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 novembre 2010 - 09:04 .

[Ieldra]

GracefulChicken wrote...
:> Me and Miranda have the same last name. First time I played ME2 I had to do a double take because I didnt think I was hearing the name right. But I was. Same pronounciation, same spelling. For that reason, I instantly started to love Miranda.

Heh...I also had a funny experience with Miranda's last name while researching around her infertility. I came across this article on artificial gametogenesis. Note the author's name. This is doubly funny because artificial gametogenesis is a process that would have been part of Miranda's creation.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
I actually find it quite surprising that the Alliance doesn't already have something like the STG. As a smaller power, I would think humanity would have a very capable intelligence/black ops agency to help it even the odds.

I often wonder about how much Cerberus filled that role before they went rogue. Or how much it's filling it even now. It was TIM's creation from the start I think, but it's entirely possible he's had close ties to the Alliance from the start and retains them. it would have been to the Alliance's advantage to have an organization they can publicly disavow while secretly profiting from its operations and its research. The increasing dissatisfaction with the Alliance within Cerberus ranks could be a result of perceiving yourself to do good work while being perceived as the villain by everyone else.   

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm actually interested in what you think of the Shepard/Miranda dynamic. They have no romantic interest in each other, but their relationship is the second most important one in the story. Part's of this were written before LotSB so her infertility has been minimized.

Very convincing. They interact naturally. I especially like Shepard's "I guess it was too much to hope for the galaxy to start making sense again." There's one part where I think she's a bit off - that's this one: "The Savior of the Citadel needed her to help him with his girlfriend. There was a part of her that took a grim pleasure in that. She didn't like that part of her. And a focused commander was a more effective commander." I'm trying to come with a personality trait that would result in "grim pleasure". I would've expected more irony. What's your reasoning for that one?

One aspect I found interesting is the implications for the Lazarus technology. If Miranda really re-created Shepard's memories from external knowledge bases, re-established the connections in his brain, then that technology would have to be powerful enough to create human-level personalities from scratch. Also, since that external knowledge base can never be complete, it stands to reason that the new Shepard is in some yet unknown but significant way not the old one. That is why one of my scenarios is that Shepard had something like a greybox in his head for most of his life, but didn't know of it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 novembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[Prudii Aden]

I agree Ieldra - I'm sure Miranda would enjoy people-watching. Especially in a nightclub.

[Elyvern]

@jtav - wonderful writing! And damn...is your Shepard clueless. I can feel your animosity for him seeping through the pores of your writing. ^^

[jtav]

Thanks guys. TIM lies to Shepard about Liara if you ask about her and says she's working for the SB. It wasn't my intention to make him clueless. Nobody's telling him why Liara's behaving this way, and he's trying to create an explanation that fits his memories of ME Liara. Or did you mean him not catching Miranda's very precise wording at the end? And irony does fit better. I'll change it.



Writing two stories at once. Let's hope I don't get my universes mixed up.

[Elyvern]

It's a combination of things. That TIM lies to him, the Liara acts weird to him, that Miranda secretly dislikes him, that he has to ask her for help, that he fails to notice her words - the entire impression I get this this is one clueless guy no matter if that wasn't your intention. And its why I said I can feel your animosity towards him.

[jtav]

I have a very odd question. Will Miranda's loyalty mission trigger if you don't speak to her at all before Horizon? Shepard will be giving her the cold shoulder for a while before she warms up to her and they become friends.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I have a very odd question. Will Miranda's loyalty mission trigger if you don't speak to her at all before Horizon? Shepard will be giving her the cold shoulder for a while before she warms up to her and they become friends.

I can't give a definitive answer since I always had the conversation on Minuteman station at least. But if you skip the first two Normandy conversations, the loyalty mission will still trigger. I think the loyalty missions always trigger.