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[Jebel Krong]

cr: rabbitzoro

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 08 novembre 2010 - 10:54 .

[Prudii Aden]

Just replayed the second of the 'romance' scenes - I'm amused by the fact that in both Miranda gets a bit flustered. I chose the 'admire' option this time (largely because I can't remember it as I always pick the other option) and while it is fun, it's not as much fun as the 'jealous' option.

[Jebel Krong]

 a little bit of renegade goes a long way 

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
[Here's a video with all outcomes of the Miranda/Jack conflict. Phew....Now I don't have to play siding with Jack myself.

Nice find. I must agree with one of the posters on the video. It's absolutely chilling that silence before Miranda says "Not even remotely". *shudder*

Yes - which makes it all the more jarring how friendy she becomes when you regain her loyalty. I'd have expected a much more grudging acceptance.
I think Miranda is a woman who holds a grudge. She'll keep it sidelined for the sake of the mission, but she won't forget for a long time.

That sounds like good reasoning. My impression is Miranda is the kind of person who operates on a slow fuse. She's slow to anger, but when she does, hell hath no worse fury unleashed. It would explain how she can remain calm and pragmatic most of the time. People that work on slow fuses tend to keep things bottled up (to the point of becoming a grudge) until the moment of explosion.

[Elyvern]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Just replayed the second of the 'romance' scenes - I'm amused by the fact that in both Miranda gets a bit flustered. I chose the 'admire' option this time (largely because I can't remember it as I always pick the other option) and while it is fun, it's not as much fun as the 'jealous' option.

I was so cheesed off in my first playthrough when I choose the paragon option and went through the "admire my body" scene. Kept thinking it was something out of a porn movie or what. After learning of the existence of the renegade option, I never picked the paragon one again.

[tommyt_1994]

Elyvern wrote...

Prudii Aden wrote...

Just replayed the second of the 'romance' scenes - I'm amused by the fact that in both Miranda gets a bit flustered. I chose the 'admire' option this time (largely because I can't remember it as I always pick the other option) and while it is fun, it's not as much fun as the 'jealous' option.

I was so cheesed off in my first playthrough when I choose the paragon option and went through the "admire my body" scene. Kept thinking it was something out of a porn movie or what. After learning of the existence of the renegade option, I never picked the paragon one again.

I agree. I liked the paragon option for the "you give your father too much credit" line because I think she really needs to learn that. And then he followed it up with the "can't I admire your body or your mind?" and I cringed.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 08 novembre 2010 - 02:22 .

[jtav]

I actually prefer the Paragon way, though neither is great. I don't like Belligerent Sexual Tension except in a few cases, and Meer and Strahovski lack the necessary chemistry. And "you give your father too much credit..." is the only time Shepard said what I wanted. I really, really don't like the romance, though not to the degree I hate Jack's. I do like the scene you get if you side against Miranda. Chilling. She'd make a fantastic villain.

[Elyvern]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Prudii Aden wrote...

Just replayed the second of the 'romance' scenes - I'm amused by the fact that in both Miranda gets a bit flustered. I chose the 'admire' option this time (largely because I can't remember it as I always pick the other option) and while it is fun, it's not as much fun as the 'jealous' option.

I was so cheesed off in my first playthrough when I choose the paragon option and went through the "admire my body" scene. Kept thinking it was something out of a porn movie or what. After learning of the existence of the renegade option, I never picked the paragon one again.

I agree. I liked the paragon option for the "you give your father too much credit" line because I think she really needs to learn that. And then he followed it up with the "can't I admire your body or your mind?" and I cringed.

Oh, I agree she needs to figure out for herself that she does give her father too much credit, but I strongly dislike the sentiment that Shepard or anyone for that matter can say a few words like clicking fingers, and expect that she would be able to divorce herself from old ghosts. If only the game actually shows something like that happening instead of resorting to motivational speeches, that would be the best thing.

[Collider]

I wish there had been a way to scold Jack for her violence but also tell Miranda that fanning the flames with "you're a mistake" isn't the best thing to do when talking to people like Jack. The former of course is the most important.



Like Ieldra said all of the dialog options besides siding with Miranda seem to not to address the real problem with what happened. The charm & intimidate options basically say "kill each other after the suicide mission," which is not something my Shepard wants happening. During charm or intimidate Jack says something along the lines of wanting to kill Miranda and Shepard just doesn't say anything. Can't Shepard at least say "uh, no?"



and siding with Jack has Shepard say something that doesn't make sense to me in the context of the situation.



He says something like "I can bring whoever I want on this mission, Miranda," - but what does that have to do with anything? Wasn't it Jack who was attacking Miranda, not the other way around?



It's really hard to find a reason to side with Jack, IMO - unless one just treats Jack as the child and Miranda as the adult. Sure Miranda shouldn't have said the "mistake" comment, but people seem to forget that Jack had assuredly been bad mouthing Miranda already and much more frequently. Whatever Miranda had done wrong in her comment was something Jack had already been doing.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Collider wrote...

I wish there had been a way to scold Jack for her violence but also tell Miranda that fanning the flames with "you're a mistake" isn't the best thing to do when talking to people like Jack. The former of course is the most important.

Like Ieldra said all of the dialog options besides siding with Miranda seem to not to address the real problem with what happened. The charm & intimidate options basically say "kill each other after the suicide mission," which is not something my Shepard wants happening. During charm or intimidate Jack says something along the lines of wanting to kill Miranda and Shepard just doesn't say anything. Can't Shepard at least say "uh, no?" 

Agreed. While I sort of see the reasoning behind the 'get past your feelings and focus on the mission' aspect, it would have been a nice touch to actually call both women out on the argument, like Collider said: call Miranda out for 'fanning the flames' and scold Jack for her violent behavior. 

This appeals to me more because I can actually focus on the problem and not just either tell one of them off, or tell them to stuff it and get on with the mission, for lack of a better term.   

[Ieldra]

Actually, Collider, I didn't say what you paraphrased, but I agree. I just checked all the variants again, and Shepard says *nothing* when Jack threatens Miranda again - after his intervention! - in both persuasion paths. Siding with Miranda seems natural. The Renegade version of regaining Jack's loyalty also sounds more fitting than all three other regaining-loyalty paths, but as a rule I won't bother. My team is usually strong enough that it can live with an unloyal Jack.



Also looked at Jack's romance again. I really don't like it. The conversations before, where Jack opens up and talks about her past, ending with "I never talked about this sh*t with anyone before", they are great, except for the Shepard flinching bit. I wish they stayed there for longer and build trust slowly. But as soon as things get into romance territory I can barely bring myself to listen.

[jtav]

Jack's romance made me feel like I needed a shower. I complain about Miranda's, but I never felt exploitative. Shepard is a condescending pr*ck. The lady has a right to say no. I don't want any of the LIs near anyone who acts this way. Pity. I really do like Jack.



Like Collider, I wanted to call them both out. I'm half afraid I'll get an epilogue where one kills the other.

[Collider]

Actually, Collider, I didn't say what you paraphrased, but I agree.

Oh, sorry for the misinterpretation.

Siding with Miranda seems natural.

Another reason why I prefer siding with Miranda is because Miranda apologizes for her part in the fight. So siding with Miranda means that Shepard tells Jack she's out of line and also has Miranda acknowledge some of her own guilt. If you side with Jack, Jack doesn't appear to learn any lesson or have any guilt or regret about attacking Miranda. So, nothing's really been accomplished other than annoying Miranda.

Whereas siding with Miranda can be said to be trying to teach Jack that violence is not the answer to all of life's problems - and that Jack's violence against Miranda was completely unnecessary. Jack shouldn't expect that Cerberus personnel are going to denounce Cerberus, nor should she expect to get away with violence (especially on a suicide mission, and especially on one where team cohesion is important) just because she doesn't like someone or doesn't agree with their views.

The Renegade version of regaining Jack's loyalty also sounds more fitting than all three other regaining-loyalty paths, but as a rule I won't bother.

What's the renegade version of regaining Jack's loyalty? I tried looking it up on youtube but I couldn't find it.

Also looked at Jack's romance again. I really don't like it. The conversations before, where Jack opens up and talks about her past, ending with "I never talked about this sh*t with anyone before", they are great, except for the Shepard flinching bit. I wish they stayed there for longer and build trust slowly. But as soon as things get into romance territory I can barely bring myself to listen.

I agree - the conversations before the romance are more or less okay - but the romance itself I didn't like at all. It really surprised me because I didn't expect Shepard to act so...ignoble. I wanted Shepard to treat Jack with respect (which is what Jack really needs) but I didn't get that at all in the romance. I actually really hated Shepard during Jack's romance. More about my opinion of Jack's romance can be read in my group, don't want to hijack this thread.

Agreed. While I sort of see the reasoning behind the 'get past your feelings and focus on the mission' aspect, it would have been a nice touch to actually call both women out on the argument, like Collider said: call Miranda out for 'fanning the flames' and scold Jack for her violent behavior.

Yep, that's what at least one of the persuasion options should have been (probably should have been the charm option) - tell both of the participants that they're out of line.

Modifié par Collider, 08 novembre 2010 - 05:09 .

[tommyt_1994]

I'll have to try and side with Miranda this playthrough. I always use charm or intimidate because I forgot you could regain loyalty by talking to them, and because I don't want to lose anyone on the Suicide Mission.  I've never done it before, I'll have to try it out. 

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 08 novembre 2010 - 05:40 .

[Ieldra]

Collider, both variants of regaining Jack's loyalty are in the video I linked on the previous page (quoted by Elyvern above). It contains all dialogue scenes relevant to the Miranda/Jack conflict.



Apart from that, I feel like posting a screenshot.

[jtav]

Here's something I haven't seen discussed lately. We know that Miranda is capable of sacrificing her entire team/crew if the mission calls for it. But she also seems to take a certain amount of personal responsibility for them. She's b*tchy to people who aren't Jack exactly twice: on Minutemen with Shepard and again after the crew abduction. These are "her people" and she seems to regard losing them as a personal affront. She outright tells Shepard said she hopes he was worth the lives of all those lost on Lazarus Station. And yet, she leaves them behind to die without a second thought because everyone else is expendable. She isn't callous or deliberately cruel, but the end result is the same. It's to her credit, though, that she's willing to also put herself in the line of fire instead of just sending others to their deaths. In fact, it's one of the things that I like best about her.

[tommyt_1994]

jtav wrote...

Here's something I haven't seen discussed lately. We know that Miranda is capable of sacrificing her entire team/crew if the mission calls for it. But she also seems to take a certain amount of personal responsibility for them. She's b*tchy to people who aren't Jack exactly twice: on Minutemen with Shepard and again after the crew abduction. These are "her people" and she seems to regard losing them as a personal affront. She outright tells Shepard said she hopes he was worth the lives of all those lost on Lazarus Station. And yet, she leaves them behind to die without a second thought because everyone else is expendable. She isn't callous or deliberately cruel, but the end result is the same. It's to her credit, though, that she's willing to also put herself in the line of fire instead of just sending others to their deaths. In fact, it's one of the things that I like best about her.

This is one of those things I really like about her as well. She seems to be one of the only LI's that can see the big picture. She's the level headed one who tells you not to rush into the Omega-4 relay if you're not ready just sto 'save the crew'. She's fully capable of sacrificing lives if she deems it a necessary price to pay. Something I doubt some of the other LI's have the backbone to do. Despite that, I think it'd eat at her inside, I think she would feel really guilty and I don't think that guilt would ever truly go away. It's definitely not something she would take lightly.

@Ieldra: I love that screenshot, but I cannot for the life of me put my finger on exactly what that look is conveying.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 09 novembre 2010 - 01:22 .

[jtav]

Quick question: would you consider it OOC for Miranda not to be particularly bothered by her infertility? As in, she never wanted kids and still doesn't and the tumor was discovered during a routine exam. She's got quite enough to angst about as is and there's no reason her infertility should be an issue since the pairing is infertile anyway.



Anybody want a Persistence excerpt? It'll have to wait until tomorrow though.

[tommyt_1994]

jtav wrote...

Quick question: would you consider it OOC for Miranda not to be particularly bothered by her infertility? As in, she never wanted kids and still doesn't and the tumor was discovered during a routine exam. She's got quite enough to angst about as is and there's no reason her infertility should be an issue since the pairing is infertile anyway.

Anybody want a Persistence excerpt? It'll have to wait until tomorrow though.

I don't see it as particularly OOC. I could see her looking at it positively. She's dedicated to her work, a kid would only disrupt those plans. I also think she would fear motherhood.

[snfonseka]

This is the link for my "Who is the most combat effective squadmate?" poll and currently most of the voters think it is Miranda and if you wish you can vote also.

social.bioware.com/23933/polls/2785/

[enayasoul]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Just replayed the second of the 'romance' scenes - I'm amused by the fact that in both Miranda gets a bit flustered. I chose the 'admire' option this time (largely because I can't remember it as I always pick the other option) and while it is fun, it's not as much fun as the 'jealous' option.

I really like this about Miranda.  I wonder if it was just Shepard in general that could get under her skin just enough for her to get flustered.   She cool and calm until the option of romance pops into the picture.  I love it!

I prefer the the 'jealous' option. Fits my version of Shepard and for my fic.

Modifié par enayasoul, 09 novembre 2010 - 04:05 .

[enayasoul]

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
[Here's a video with all outcomes of the Miranda/Jack conflict. Phew....Now I don't have to play siding with Jack myself.

Nice find. I must agree with one of the posters on the video. It's absolutely chilling that silence before Miranda says "Not even remotely". *shudder*

Yes - which makes it all the more jarring how friendy she becomes when you regain her loyalty. I'd have expected a much more grudging acceptance.
I think Miranda is a woman who holds a grudge. She'll keep it sidelined for the sake of the mission, but she won't forget for a long time.

That sounds like good reasoning. My impression is Miranda is the kind of person who operates on a slow fuse. She's slow to anger, but when she does, hell hath no worse fury unleashed. It would explain how she can remain calm and pragmatic most of the time. People that work on slow fuses tend to keep things bottled up (to the point of becoming a grudge) until the moment of explosion.

What do you think would be her breaking point or the moment of explosion?  I don't know of anyone she could confide in... to let it out...

In my fic, I have her reach a breaking point because of everything that has happened recently.  Romance with Shepard, Sister's safety, quitting cerberus but she can't entirely... and more... She has to deal with more of her "feelings"   But I wouldn't consider it anything more than letting it all out... and Shepard is the only one she can really talk to about it.  I think it would be kind of difficult for her to express also.

As for the infertility... That's been churning in my mind.  I think she is too busy right now to have any kids but on the other hand, in my fic, she is considering finding out a way. Even though it's the most inconvenant time... Reaper threat and all.   And the fact that she and Shepard are having lots of sex. He has suspect something if they never use protection.    She hasn't even decided to tell him but he knows.

[The_Numerator]

Question: Is Miranda made less sympathetic by virtue of being "perfect"?



I mean, does brilliance, beauty, and privilege preclude being allowed to be unhappy?



Or put in completely general terms, are aristocrats not allowed to have problems by virtue of their being aristocrats?

[Collider]

It depends most on how it's done, IMO. A person of privilege should have a good reason to be unhappy.

[tommyt_1994]

The_Numerator wrote...

Question: Is Miranda made less sympathetic by virtue of being "perfect"?

I mean, does brilliance, beauty, and privilege preclude being allowed to be unhappy?

Or put in completely general terms, are aristocrats not allowed to have problems by virtue of their being aristocrats?

Could Miranda be less sympathetic because she's "perfect"? Hmm I think she's the type to expect less of others around her, but not because she's "perfect", especially considering she doesn't see herself as such. I don't think she would expect the same level of production from others until she saw evidence that they were capable of such productivity. But as soon as she realized you were capable? She would accept nothing less.