15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Quick question: would you consider it OOC for Miranda not to be particularly bothered by her infertility? As in, she never wanted kids and still doesn't and the tumor was discovered during a routine exam. She's got quite enough to angst about as is and there's no reason her infertility should be an issue since the pairing is infertile anyway.

No, it's perfectly OK with me if she isn't all that bothered by it. If you think it's OOC because of her obvious envy of Oriana's functional family - for her, that train has passed, and growing up in a functional family and making one of your own are different things. If she doesn't want children, then she doesn't want them, and that's  that. It's even plausible considering she's something of a workaholic.

Anybody want a Persistence excerpt? It'll have to wait until tomorrow though.

Yes, I would like that very much.

[Ieldra]

The_Numerator wrote...
Question: Is Miranda made less sympathetic by virtue of being "perfect"?

I mean, does brilliance, beauty, and privilege preclude being allowed to be unhappy?

Or put in completely general terms, are aristocrats not allowed to have problems by virtue of their being aristocrats

Obviously, Miranda does have problems and is unhappy in some aspects of her life, so the answer to the question is "no". But....

Obviously, some people don't like Miranda because of her brilliance, beauty and apparent privilege. I never understood that. I love that she's bright and beautiful, and that she has no need to think hard about every credit she spends (actually, that's not a given, but I assume there's some truth to it). Really, isn't that what everyone wants? Why should I like someone less for it? Why is there that desperate need to push her face into the dirt just because she has some advantages. Actually, it's the people who want to do that whose face I'd like to push into the dirt.

Obviously, Miranda appreciates her exceptional traits professionally, but in her being exceptionally gifted does not result in a sense of entitlement, but in a sense of obligation. She has those gifts, so she has a duty to use them for a worthy cause. I think that is an admirable mindset. Nothing to dislike her for.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

Prudii Aden wrote...

Just replayed the second of the 'romance' scenes - I'm amused by the fact that in both Miranda gets a bit flustered. I chose the 'admire' option this time (largely because I can't remember it as I always pick the other option) and while it is fun, it's not as much fun as the 'jealous' option.

I was so cheesed off in my first playthrough when I choose the paragon option and went through the "admire my body" scene. Kept thinking it was something out of a porn movie or what. After learning of the existence of the renegade option, I never picked the paragon one again.

It's too bad, isn't it? There Shepard says to her what I wanted him to say since I first heard of her problems (you give your father too much credit....), and then it's followed up by a bucket of liquefied cheese to make your toenails curl up. And it gets worse in the middle option in conversation 4 ("What matters is how we feel"). Ugh. It's as if the writers ran completely out of interesting things to say.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 novembre 2010 - 09:31 .

[Prudii Aden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Prudii Aden wrote...
Just replayed the second of the 'romance' scenes - I'm amused by the fact that in both Miranda gets a bit flustered. I chose the 'admire' option this time (largely because I can't remember it as I always pick the other option) and while it is fun, it's not as much fun as the 'jealous' option.

I was so cheesed off in my first playthrough when I choose the paragon option and went through the "admire my body" scene. Kept thinking it was something out of a porn movie or what. After learning of the existence of the renegade option, I never picked the paragon one again.

It's too bad, isn't it? There Shepard says to her what I wanted him to say since I first heard of her problems (you give your father too much credit....), and then it's followed up by a bucket of liquefied cheese to make your toenails curl up. And it gets worse in the middle option in conversation 4 ("What matters is how we feel"). Ugh. It's as if the writers ran completely out of interesting things to say.

There is a lot of cheese there. Putting the "you give your father too much credit" line along with "jealous" might work, but would require more work from the writers - there isn't really a way to go straight from one line to another. Looking at them on the dialogue tree, they really don't work together, especially as the 'admire' part comes before "you give your father too much credit."

Shame really.

[Elyvern]

enayasoul wrote...

What do you think would be her breaking point or the moment of explosion?  I don't know of anyone she could confide in... to let it out...

The thing is everyone has a breaking point, some reach theirs earier than others that's all. Miranda's strength of character, emotional reserveness and her adherance to a more pragmatic frame of mind would prevent her from reaching hers until a critical moment. And unless you want to posit a drawn-out angst ridden scenario, likely things could be resolved (and I think they mostly do) before that point comes around. Bottomline is it's highly circumstantial but it has to be extremely dire imo. She reached her breaking point in my fic when Mordin died, she had no idea if Shepard was alive after not hearing from him for 6 months, the reapers were winning and she had only one chance to make a difference against overwhelming odds.

As for the infertility... That's been churning in my mind.  I think she is too busy right now to have any kids but on the other hand, in my fic, she is considering finding out a way. Even though it's the most inconvenant time... Reaper threat and all.   And the fact that she and Shepard are having lots of sex. He has suspect something if they never use protection.    She hasn't even decided to tell him but he knows.

A-hah! I'd like to present you with a scenario I gave some thought to. Given that the dossier says her condition will render her "progressively infertile" I'd say that there could be a likelihood that if she doesn't use protection, she could end up getting pregnant, at least initially. Knowing that, could she be angry enough at the injustice to risk that happening in a "see if I can win over fate" kind of mentality? I admit it wouldn't be a wise move, and god forbid that she and shepard manages to hit jackpot, but in situations like this, being angry and wanting some sort of emotional vindication would be understandable. And it would be so easy for her to just stop taking birth control pills (or whatever it is they use), one deceptively simple non-action daily.

Modifié par Elyvern, 09 novembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[jtav]

The dossier says "renders" not "will render." That implies she's already infertile.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

The dossier says "renders" not "will render." That implies she's already infertile.

It needn't be, because "progressive damage" before that qualifies any sense of certainty there is on the issue.

[Elyvern]

The_Numerator wrote...

Question: Is Miranda made less sympathetic by virtue of being "perfect"?

I mean, does brilliance, beauty, and privilege preclude being allowed to be unhappy?

Or put in completely general terms, are aristocrats not allowed to have problems by virtue of their being aristocrats?

I agree with what Ieldra said, but would like to add some thoughts of my own:

About the "perfect" issue -- If you notice, to balance Miranda's physical perfection and, to a lesser extent, socially-privileged position, she's given a good number of emotional and psychological flaws to compensate. If the concept of a "perfect" person in emotional and psychological terms involve being likeable, approachable, sympathetic, empathic, to have a big circle of friends and loved ones, and to be emotionally healthy and fulfilled, then she fails resoundingly in all these areas. From that point of view, she's not perfect already. But I suppose that's not enough to qualify for sympathy from the average person, because what screams across is "poor little rich girl". Except she isn't. She knows her own flaws, but she doesn't let them bog her down, even if it means, and I think we can generally agree, that she's not what we'd term a happy person at all. Which brings us to my second point.

I feel the problem here is sense of perspective. Note that Miranda does have fears, a palpable realisation that she can fail, a sense of insecurity and discomfort for the gifts she's given. She's proud of what she can do, but she doesn't let pride deceive her into thinking she is incapable of wrong. It's just that all of that applies to goals and objectives we generally find hard to understand--being as they're things like advancing humanity, saving the galaxy and creating medical miracles just to quote a few.

Sympathy from me is already achieved. She doesn't give a damn about her personal happiness or how she is seen by many people--a cold fish, a b*itch (hell, watch the way she shrugs off that epithet when Shepard uses it on her on Minuteman). She can get by and make do without because there are more important things in her mind, things that require her to sacrifice personal entitlement for the sake of the bigger picture. She is literally the watchman that stands guard on the tower so the rest of the world can get a good night's sleep.

Unfortunately it seems, for one reason or another, Bioware feels compelled to give her another characteristic that would make her more identifiable to more people. Personally, I didn't need it already. I was won over, and I don't like how the fertility issue goes so strongly against Miranda's representation of physical perfection, something which has been stressed so often throughout the game. It feels almost like a retcon for some reason.

Modifié par Elyvern, 09 novembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[enayasoul]

Elyvern wrote...

enayasoul wrote...

What do you think would be her breaking point or the moment of explosion?  I don't know of anyone she could confide in... to let it out...

The thing is everyone has a breaking point, some reach theirs earier than others that's all. Miranda's strength of character, emotional reserveness and her adherance to a more pragmatic frame of mind would prevent her from reaching hers until a critical moment. And unless you want to posit a drawn-out angst ridden scenario, likely things could be resolved (and I think they mostly do) before that point comes around. Bottomline is it's highly circumstantial but it has to be extremely dire imo. She reached her breaking point in my fic when Mordin died, she had no idea if Shepard was alive after not hearing from him for 6 months, the reapers were winning and she had only one chance to make a difference against overwhelming odds.

As for the infertility... That's been churning in my mind.  I think she is too busy right now to have any kids but on the other hand, in my fic, she is considering finding out a way. Even though it's the most inconvenant time... Reaper threat and all.   And the fact that she and Shepard are having lots of sex. He has suspect something if they never use protection.    She hasn't even decided to tell him but he knows.

A-hah! I'd like to present you with a scenario I gave some thought to. Given that the dossier says her condition will render her "progressively infertile" I'd say that there could be a likelihood that if she doesn't use protection, she could end up getting pregnant, at least initially. Knowing that, could she be angry enough at the injustice to risk that happening in a "see if I can win over fate" kind of mentality? I admit it wouldn't be a wise move, and god forbid that she and shepard manages to hit jackpot, but in situations like this, being angry and wanting some sort of emotional vindication would be understandable. And it would be so easy for her to just stop taking birth control pills (or whatever it is they use), one deceptively simple non-action daily.

Yes, she could get angry...  or does in fact hate the fact that this is happening to her now.  She didn't care before but does now.  There is one scene where he asks if she is feeling alright.  See tries to rationailize it with having to to much to wine the night before. (they were out at a club, turned out well actually.)  and he asks her blunty if she is.  Because he knows she's acting a little differently that morning.  She denied she was but didn't go into any details.  Then my shepard makes a stupid comment saying... you probably didn't want a house and little shepards running around.  Well,that made it worse for her.  It was an interesting scene which did get resolved but she didn't tell him anything.

But I like what you've suggested.  She would be so angry and wanting some sort of emotional vindication that she could.  Or maybe a hope that she could.  I think she might be in denile of her situation.  hmmm.... Still thinking about it.

I just did a yahoo search and came up with one hit...  renders her "progressively infertile'...
How man are becoming more increasingly infertile.  This also has me thinking what if this was something to do with her father???  Maybe he's infertile?

Quote from: www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/
"The last few decades have seen steady and dramatic increases in the
incidence of boys and young men suffering from genital deformities, low
sperm count, sperm abnormalities and testicular cancer.

Modifié par enayasoul, 09 novembre 2010 - 02:09 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
About
the "perfect" issue -- If you notice, to balance Miranda's physical and to a lesser extent socially-privileged position, she's given a good number of emotional and psychological flaws to compensate. If the concept of a "perfect" person in emotional and psychological terms involve being likeable, approachable, sympathetic, empathic, to have a big circle of friends and loved ones, and to be emotionally healthy and fulfilled, then she fails resoundingly in all these areas. From that point of view, she's not perfect already. But I suppose that's not enough to qualify for sympathy from the average person, because what screams across is "poor little rich girl". Except she isn't. She knows her own flaws, but she doesn't let them bog her down, even if it means, and I think we can generally agree, that she's not what we'd term a happy person at all. Which brings us to my second point.

I feel the problem here is sense of perspective. Note that Miranda does have fears, a palpable realisation that she can fail, a sense of insecurity and discomfort for the gifts she's given. She's proud of what she can do, but she doesn't let pride deceive her into thinking she is incapable of wrong. It's just that all of that applies to goals and objectives we generally find hard to understand--being as they're things like advancing humanity, saving the galaxy and creating medical miracles just to quote a few.

Sympathy from me is already achieved. She doesn't give a damn about her personal happiness or how she is seen by many people--a cold fish, a b*itch (hell, watch the way she shrugs off that epithet when Shepard uses it on her on Minuteman). She can get by and make do without because there are more important things in her mind, things that require her to sacrifice personal entitlement for the sake of the bigger picture. She is literally the watchman that stands guard on the tower so the rest of the world can get a good night's sleep.

Unfortunately it seems, for one reason or another, Bioware feels compelled to give her another characteristic that would make her more identifiable to more people. Personally, I didn't need it already. I was won over, and I don't like how the fertility issue goes so strongly against Miranda's representation of physical perfection, something which has been stressed so often throughout the game. It feels almost like a retcon for some reason.

^^All of this.

Miranda's infertility must be canonically set to be reversible! I like that she's physically perfect (as far as that term has any meaning) and she definitely didn't need yet another problem.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 novembre 2010 - 02:05 .

[tommyt_1994]

I kind of think that Bioware threw in infertility to try and attract more people to her character. Mondo came in here not too long ago and discussed how Miranda's infertility helped her sympathize for, and thus better appreciate her character. Her infertility didn't do this for me, mainly because I think it should undoubtedly be reversible, but also because I already liked her character. Perhaps the infertility attracts other people to her as well? It may serve as the first step in people realizing that she isn't the "perfect little rich girl" she may appear to be to others.

[Nightwriter]

I honestly think the infertility was a needed ingredient. Miranda needed a humanizing flaw.

[tommyt_1994]

Nightwriter wrote...

I honestly think the infertility was a needed ingredient. Miranda needed a humanizing flaw.

Her emotional and self esteem flaws weren't enough? I kind of feel as though her infertility just goes against one of her character character's "bullet points", her physical perfection. If done well, something like that could be great but the should-be-reversible "benign neoplasm" just doesn't cut it IMO.

[jtav]

I think a lot of people's reaction to Miranda was "You're beautiful and brilliant and you're complaining about this? Cry me a river." For whatever reason, people are more sympathetic to physical abuse or problems than they are to psychological ones. And infertility is something that affects more people, either directly or indirectly, then being the high overachiever who still feels like they don't measure up. I don't feel this way, but I was one of those gifted kids. I do find that I relate to her even more now because I have family members that had this problem. I'd actually much rather her make her peace with her infertility and adopt than have it reversed, if she even wants children. Personal preference, probably tied into the fact that I don't think Lawson's methods should be a viable future for the human race. He should never have created her or her sister's. Though this isn't her fault in any way shape or form. It's not fair that she should be the one to pay the price.

[Nightwriter]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I honestly think the infertility was a needed ingredient. Miranda needed a humanizing flaw.

Her emotional and self esteem flaws weren't enough? I kind of feel as though her infertility just goes against one of her character character's "bullet points", her physical perfection. If done well, something like that could be great but the should-be-reversible "benign neoplasm" just doesn't cut it IMO.

It's enough for me, but I can't expect the average gamer to look as closely at Miranda as I do.

Most people's reaction to Miranda was as jtav described. They trivialize her self-esteem issues, roll their eyes at them. Her infertility is much easier for them to understand and sympathize with, I think. 

[jtav]

Part of me wants to say "screw the average gamer." Hell, screw the average gamer. The constant trivialization of psychological abuse makes me angry. It would have been better to be more specific about what her father did to her.

[Jebel Krong]

Nightwriter wrote...

I honestly think the infertility was a needed ingredient. Miranda needed a humanizing flaw.

 as opposed to those well-written and understated ones she already has? <_< the infertility thing was about as blunt as a sledgehammer.

[Elyvern]

enayasoul wrote...

Yes, she could get angry...  or does in fact hate the fact that this is happening to her now.  She didn't care before but does now.  There is one scene where he asks if she is feeling alright.  See tries to rationailize it with having to to much to wine the night before. (they were out at a club, turned out well actually.)  and he asks her blunty if she is.  Because he knows she's acting a little differently that morning.  She denied she was but didn't go into any details.  Then my shepard makes a stupid comment saying... you probably didn't want a house and little shepards running around.  Well,that made it worse for her.  It was an interesting scene which did get resolved but she didn't tell him anything.

But I like what you've suggested.  She would be so angry and wanting some sort of emotional vindication that she could.  Or maybe a hope that she could.  I think she might be in denile of her situation.  hmmm.... Still thinking about it.  

Do note that Miranda doesn't put too much emphasis on her personal needs and fulfilment. And while she could be angry at the hand that fate dealt her, it wouldn't consume her entire attention and time. If you choose to have her go ballistic (being angry or emotional beyond all reason) solely because of being infertile, it could feel really OOC. My scenario posits her as possibly making a "petty" stand (and I use that word carefully). It may even be that she recognises it as being vindictive and  childish, but she still feels she has to lash out somehow in a personal way.

I just did a yahoo search and came up with one hit...  renders her "progressively infertile'...
How man are becoming more increasingly infertile.  This also has me thinking what if this was something to do with her father???  Maybe he's infertile?

Quote from: www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/
"The last few decades have seen steady and dramatic increases in the
incidence of boys and young men suffering from genital deformities, low
sperm count, sperm abnormalities and testicular cancer.

Uh....it 's not possible that Miranda was concieved through something as simple as IVF, a sperm wouldn't come into the equation because there is no egg. Miranda's genetic template doesn't involve a mother. Any other form of genetic engineering (which is the way she would be created) would require that every gene be scanned for abnormalities and corrected, so that makes it even more unlikely that her father's genetic flaws has anything to do with her condition.

Modifié par Elyvern, 09 novembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[enayasoul]

Elyvern wrote...

Do note that Miranda doesn't put too much emphasis on her personal needs and fulfilment. And while she could be angry at the hand that fate dealt her, it wouldn't consume her entire attention and time. If you choose to have her go ballistic (being angry or emotional beyond all reason) solely because of being infertile, it could feel really OOC. My scenario posits her as possibly making a "petty" stand (and I use that word carefully). It may even be that she recognises it as being vindictive and  childish, but she still feels she has to lash out somehow without making a scene out of it.

Uh....it 's not possible that Miranda was concieved through something as simple as IVF, a sperm wouldn't come into the equation because there is no egg. Miranda's genetic template doesn't involve a mother. Any other form of genetic engineering (which is the way she would be created) would require that every gene be scanned for abnormalities and corrected, so that makes it even more unlikely that her father's genetic flaws has anything to do with her condition.

You do make a good point.  Especially remembering when she makes sure her sister is safe.  How she told Shepard, "It's not about what I want."    She wouldn't obsess over it or ballastic in her emotions either.

Maybe that was the point of her one night stand and then the medical report? Which is still very confusing because we have really no time stamp to place them too. Other than it being listed that way.  Argh. laughs.

Yeah...  I agree with her being geneticially engineered.   They never really say what the real causes were that gave her the infertility problem.  Could be any number of things.  I just thought that article was interesting.  

[Collider]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I honestly think the infertility was a needed ingredient. Miranda needed a humanizing flaw.

Her emotional and self esteem flaws weren't enough?

IMO, no. Part of it was because she doesn't really have an active problems now. Miranda is quite at home at Cerberus and she is highly appreciated. I remember hearing one Cerberus person on the Normandy say that if Miranda is on the job, they can get anything done. So it's like her problems with taking credit for her achievements or her mistakes are not very applicable now because Cerberus likes her and prizes her, and certainly gives her credit for her achievements. Miranda seems relatively content working with Cerberus.  

They should have delved more into Miranda's childhood, just as they did with Jack. They didn't give enough details. Not to mention one can expect that "rich, had everything she wanted and asked for" is harder to relate to for most people. I would have changed that and instead emphasized that Miranda had only what was required for her to the "perfect daughter" - she didn't get what she wanted so much as what her father wanted. That's a lot easier to relate to, if one has overbearing parents.

That said, does inferility make her especially more sympathetic? It would depend on how much Miranda cares about it. If it basically has no affect on anything, then it essentially does not matter. However, you'd think that Miranda cares to some degree because she sought out the diagnosis, did she not?

[Nightwriter]

Jebel Krong wrote...

 as opposed to those well-written and understated ones she already has? <_< the infertility thing was about as blunt as a sledgehammer.

Hey, I wish it wasn't needed more than anyone, but...

It's not that I want everyone to love Miranda, or to somehow commercialize her (not that that hasn't happened already with the sexualization). I just would like it if a lot of people didn't outright dislike her. And dislike is actually a pretty mild word for the attitudes I've seen.

Now, I knew long before LotSB that Miranda didn't think she was perfect, and that her superiority was basically just a front, and I loved her for it. But most people didn't see it, and if they did, they didn't care enough to look beyond that front. So really, I'm just glad that people seem to be taking a second look at Miranda now. And if this infertility thing caused that, then good. I just hope it's reversible.

[Elyvern]

Collider wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I honestly think the infertility was a needed ingredient. Miranda needed a humanizing flaw.

Her emotional and self esteem flaws weren't enough?

IMO, no. Part of it was because she doesn't really have an active problems now. Miranda is quite at home at Cerberus and she is highly appreciated. I remember hearing one Cerberus person on the Normandy say that if Miranda is on the job, they can get anything done. So it's like her problems with taking credit for her achievements or her mistakes are not very applicable now because Cerberus likes her and prizes her, and certainly gives her credit for her achievements. Miranda seems relatively content working with Cerberus.  

They should have delved more into Miranda's childhood, just as they did with Jack. They didn't give enough details. Not to mention one can expect that "rich, had everything she wanted and asked for" is harder to relate to for most people. I would have changed that and instead emphasized that Miranda had only what was required for her to the "perfect daughter" - she didn't get what she wanted so much as what her father wanted. That's a lot easier to relate to, if one has overbearing parents.

That said, does inferility make her especially more sympathetic? It would depend on how much Miranda cares about it. If it basically has no affect on anything, then it essentially does not matter. However, you'd think that Miranda cares to some degree because she sought out the diagnosis, did she not?

Mmmm...I can see where you're coming from. However, I would like to point out that due to the lack of time-stamps, it's entirely possible that her infertility came out of a routine check-up which may turn out some abnormalities, and the GP would then direct her to a OB/GYN for a closer examination. I personally feel that could be the case, but then again, I don't need Miranda to have anymore flaws than what she already has.

I actually enjoy the number of fictional scenarios that could arise from her infertility, it's all more fodder to crunch and speculate on, (ie. put Miranda in more scenarios where we can formulate and concret-ise how she would react given the situation). I'd even be happy if Bioware tries to address the topic like we're doing without derailing her character, but at the end of the bloody trilogy, I want her infertility to be cured.

Modifié par Elyvern, 09 novembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[Ieldra]

I couldn't disagree more with anyone who doesn't want Miranda's infertility to be reversed. I liked and appreciated her as "physically perfect" as she was, and didn't want it changed. I still like and appreciate her, that didn't change one bit, but I feel her getting that infertility like I'd feel an insult, particularly because she was singled out for such treatment.

Ah, and should it not be cured, I'll imagine that she'll have a child the same way she was made one day, if she wants. For her origins aren't her problem, the way she grew up was. I'd rather have ten children with artificial genetic templates who are loved by whoever cares for them than one mistreated natural-born. And, in fact, I fully endorse genetic engineering as a way to improve humanity.

I'll stop now. Everything about this has been said at some time. Find my uncensored opinion some day on the "Rants" thread in the Stuff Group. I don't think there's much Bioware could've done with Miranda in a DLC that wasn't about her to make me more angry than this.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 novembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
I actually enjoy the number of fictional scenarios that could arise from her infertility, it's all more fodder to crunch and speculate on, (ie. put Miranda in more scenarios where we can formulate and concret-ise how she would react given the situation). I'd even be happy if Bioware tries to address the topic like we're doing, but at the end of the bloody trilogy, I want her infertility to be cured.

Exactly. I also appreciate the storytelling possibilities resulting from this. But it should be gone before we see ME3's credits.

[Nightwriter]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I couldn't disagree more with anyone who doesn't want Miranda's infertility to be reversed. I liked and appreciated her as "physically perfect" as she was, and didn't want it changed. I still like and appreciate her, that didn't change one bit, but I feel her getting that infertility like I'd feel an insult, particularly because she was singled out for such treatment.

Ah, and should it not be cured, I'll imagine that she'll have a child the same way she was made one day, if she wants. For her origins aren't her problem, the way she grew up was. I'd rather have ten children with artificial genetic templates who are loved by whoever cares for them than one mistreated natural-born. And, in fact, I fully endorse genetic engineering as a way to improve humanity.

I'll stop now. Everything about this has been said at some time. Find my uncensored opinion some day on the "Rants" thread in the Stuff Group. I don't think there's much Bioware could've done with Miranda in a DLC that wasn't about her to make me more angry than this.

I know you're all for genetic advancement - and I am too really - but I've never actually liked that Miranda was stamped "PERFECT WOMAN". Such a thing inspires a negative reaction even in me. I find it somehow degrading, I guess.

I often wish they had just sold her as being bred for physical or mental excellence and left the word "perfect" out of it altogether.