15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...
I often wish they had just sold her as being bred for physical or mental excellence and left the word "perfect" out of it altogether.

That I agree with. "Perfection" is such a loaded word, and in fact, such a thing as "genetic perfection" doesn't exist. Perhaps some of the dislike would've been avoided that way.

[jtav]

Be careful what you wish for. I can think of several worse things that could have happened. The more this is discussed, the more I want to dig in my heels and say that I don't want it cured, but for her to adopt/mate with an asari/become a figurative parent by teaching/leading a large organization.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Be careful what you wish for. I can think of several worse things that could have happened. The more this is discussed, the more I want to dig in my heels and say that I don't want it cured...

Then  you'll have me dig in my heels in the opposite direction. But you have a point.

[Ryzaki]

Hm...now that I think about it I don't want her infertility reveresed either. She just can't have children. There's nothing wrong with that. Its part of the load she has to bear for being as close to perfection as one can get. And yes I know she didn't want it but that is just how the cookie crumbles.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...
Hm...now that I think about it I don't want her infertility reveresed either. She just can't have children. There's nothing wrong with that. Its part of the load she has to bear for being as close to perfection as one can get. And yes I know she didn't want it but that is just how the cookie crumbles.

I wonder why the wind suddenly blows in the opposite direction... You know, I imagine there are quite a few Miranda fans out there who'd like to imagine their Shepard and Miranda to have children. Would you deprive them of their preferred epilogues? I mean, Miranda is one of only two (!!) LIs you could actually have human children with. I can't imagine Bioware would restrict us to Ashley...

And to link her infertility to her genetic improvements, that would be absolutely the very last straw. I don't know what I'd do if that became canon. That's just to think that her being especially gifted means she has to be cursed by fate in some other aspect. Really, I hate that kind of thinking. We're not in a fantasy story, damn it! "The load she has to bear" indeed. Just reading the phrase makes me sick (sorry, nothing against you personally). Why can't there ever be a good thing without people wanting to destroy it for some misplaced notion of poetic justice.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 novembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[enayasoul]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Hm...now that I think about it I don't want her infertility reveresed either. She just can't have children. There's nothing wrong with that. Its part of the load she has to bear for being as close to perfection as one can get. And yes I know she didn't want it but that is just how the cookie crumbles.

I wonder why the wind suddenly blows in the opposite direction... You know, I imagine there are quite a few Miranda fans out there who'd like to imagine their Shepard and Miranda to have children. Would you deprive them of their preferred epilogues? I mean, Miranda is one of only two (!!) LIs you could actually have human children with. I can't imagine Bioware would restrict us to Ashley...

And to link her infertility to her genetic improvements, that would be absolutely the very last straw. I don't know what I'd do if that became canon. That just to think that her being especially gifted means she has to be cursed by fate in some other aspect. Really, I hate that kind of thinking. We're not in a fantasy story, damn it."The load she has to bear" indeed. Just reading the phrase makes me sick (sorry, nothing against you).

I for one want her to be cured but if they decide not to well crap.   I hope she get's to know what it would be like to be a mom... or how she deals with it. 

[Prudii Aden]

My take on the whole wretched scenario goes like this: The male Shepard characters I've got will leave the decision to her. If she wants it cured, then it will be. If she doesn't, then it won't. It is a very personal thing and while he might be granted an input, it's her choice. Whatever Miranda choses, he'll be there for her - period.



As a player, I'm bordering on the 'cure' side, but if it's not dealt with in game, then that's what fanfiction is for. It could have been dealt with a whole lot better, but the writer had the Idiot Ball.

[Elyvern]

I wonder if it's another nail to be bludgeoned onto the coffin that says "science is bad"? For a SF franchise that is based around the advances of science and new discoveries, the overwhelming reservations that Bioware puts into their universe about the dangers of science is really off-putting. I'd hate it if they intend Miranda's plight to become one of the vehicles for that message.

[Nightwriter]

You're really for the genetic advancement, aren't you? It's actually not as important to me, but I often fantasize about giving humanity the lifespan and natural biotic ability of the asari... if only...

And in all honesty, it would not bother me if the infertility could not be reversed and there could never be children - I don't think that far ahead. And I would care about Miranda no matter what. I still don't firmly want to keep the infertility. I hope it is reversible somehow.

[Elyvern]

Nightwriter wrote...

You're really for the genetic advancement, aren't you? It's actually not as important to me, but I often fantasize about giving humanity the lifespan and natural biotic ability of the asari... if only...

And in all honesty, it would not bother me if the infertility could not be reversed and there could never be children - I don't think that far ahead. And I would care about Miranda no matter what. I still don't firmly want to keep the infertility. I hope it is reversible somehow.

I can't speak for Ieldra of course, even though I'm for genetic advancement as well. But I do want to point out that my wanting Miranda to have the ability to concieve naturally actually marks a return to biological roots. Her genetically engineered template would only be the point of genesis, but everything after that, and all the advancements she's given should be capable of self-sustainment (ie. her genes can be passed on to the human population at large via her descendants without further intervention).

To input infertility into her genetic make-up would mean the entire concept behind the meaning of her existence would be made void and non-viable. Then why make such a big deal about her genetically engineered origins and the fact that her father wanted a dynasty? Just to make an elaborate argument about the danger of hubris? That would be akin shooting oneself in the narrative foot, literally taking away one big part from the foundations upon which her character is built on.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
I wonder if it's another nail to be bludgeoned onto the coffin that says "science is bad"? For a SF franchise that is based around the advances of science and new discoveries, the overwhelming reservations that Bioware puts into their universe about the dangers of science is really off-putting. I'd hate it if they intend Miranda's plight to become one of the vehicles for that message.

Indeed. That's another thing that gets me riled up. You know, I'm playing a science fiction game in a universe with infinite possibilities, and all the time I get none-too-subtle messages of the kind "don't use any of them, just stick to the old ways." It's one reason why I can imagine quite well to go for the darkest ending possible, because well, if science is bad, then I'm a villain and proud of it. The whole thing almost makes me sympathetic for Miranda's father's idea of a genetic dynasty. I really don't want to be a member of a species that drags everyone down to the lowest common denominator instead of striving for improvement. It's also one reason why I can see my Shepard emigrating from that stagnating Citadel Civilization after the Reapers are defeated.

I used to be a lot more moderate in this. But Bioware's rain of anvils made me rebellious.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You're really for the genetic advancement, aren't you? It's actually not as important to me, but I often fantasize about giving humanity the lifespan and natural biotic ability of the asari... if only...

And in all honesty, it would not bother me if the infertility could not be reversed and there could never be children - I don't think that far ahead. And I would care about Miranda no matter what. I still don't firmly want to keep the infertility. I hope it is reversible somehow.

I can't speak for Ieldra of course, even though I'm for genetic advancement as well. But I do want to point out that my wanting Miranda to have the ability to concieve naturally actually marks a return to biological roots. Her genetically engineered template would only be the point of genesis, but everything after that, and all the advancements she's given should be capable of self-sustainment (ie. her genes can be passed on to the human population at large via her descendants without further intervention).

To input infertility into her genetic make-up would mean the entire concept behind the meaning of her existence would be made void and non-viable. Then why make such a big deal about her genetically engineered origins and the fact that her father wanted a dynasty? Just to make an elaborate argument about the danger of hubris? That would be akin shooting oneself in the narrative foot, literally taking away one big part from the foundations upon which her character is built on.

You might as well have spoken for me (no surprise here). You have my complete agreement.

[Ieldra]

Time for the daily screenshot before I leave for the night....

[jtav]

I like that screenshot. All this disagreement can be exhausting, though I wouldn't exchange it for the world. All I can say is that of all the characters I could have fallen in love with, I had to pick Miranda.

[ADLegend21]

jtav wrote...

I like that screenshot. All this disagreement can be exhausting, though I wouldn't exchange it for the world. All I can say is that of all the characters I could have fallen in love with, I had to pick Miranda.

Same. it happened for me because I played mass effect 2 first and she was just the complete character and a hell of a squadmate (She's also very good looking but that's all Yvonne) so naturally she gets the majority of my me2 romances for my male sheps (and my one femshep) Although when i went back to have some me1 imports I feel for Ashley for the same reasons, they were both tough, smart, and indepenedent so I romanced Ash and then Miranda to get to possible LI choice which will take me 5 hours to do the first time.

[hooahguy]

This is sorta unrelated, but which mission is this photo from?





I think the location is also the site of the infamous "Miri looking over the railing at some waterfall and getting a good shot at Miris rear end" scene.

[The_Numerator]

Zaeed's loyalty mission.

[Prudii Aden]

The gratuitous shot of Miri's backside comes from the conversation/briefing for her loyalty mission.

[hooahguy]

Prudii Aden wrote...

The gratuitous shot of Miri's backside comes from the conversation/briefing for her loyalty mission.

But theres no waterfall there...

And thank you, Numerator, now I recognize it as Zaeeds LM.

Modifié par hooahguy, 10 novembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[jtav]

Remember that excerpt I promised? This is something different for me. Fairy tales Prothean style. I'm hoping to shorten it considerably in the next draft, and it's perhaps too on-point.

Prothean artifacts were on display in a glass case near the stairs. Miranda wrinkled her nose and pointed toward one if them. "What exactly is that?" It looked vaguely like a miniature clay version of the statues found and looted after the rediscovery of Ilos. The mouth—if that black, gaping maw could be called a mouth—stood open in a silent scream. Sightless eyes stared at her. The face was twisted in what appeared to be unimaginable pain.

"That," Liara said slowly, "is Marikar. The closest human equivalent would be Frankenstein's monster or perhaps a very dark take on the Golem of Prague or the story of Tom Thumb. It's your standard 'hubris of mortal man usurping the role of the gods' the story. As best we can tell, this particular myth never spread beyond a few islands of what we think was the Prothean homeworld. The—listen to me rambling on. I must be boring you."

"No." And she wasn't. "You love this. Talking about the Protheans. I can hear it in your voice."

"I did. Do." She cleared her throat. When she spoke again, her voice was low and rhythmic. A storyteller's voice. "In those days, there lived a sorcerer-king who ruled over half the known world. He was a very wicked man, but also a very clever and diligent. He had three sons who were as wicked as their father, but they spent their days whoring and gambling and drinking. The sorcerer knew that none of them were fit to rule. So, he decided to create a worthy heir. The secret of creating life was one of many he knew, though no one had ever tried to create a Prothean before."

She gestured toward the clay figurine. "The sorcerer labored for several weeks, sculpting his creation, and spoke to no one about what he was doing. He spoke incantation that ensured the creature would have all the knowledge of mortal men and be stronger and faster than anyone alive. He named the creature Marikar, which means either 'bright one' or 'conqueror', depending on the translation you're using.

"Marikar was eventually completed. The sorcerer said the proper incantation, and the boy set up and began to speak as if he had awoken from a long nap. The sorcerer was delighted. Marikar could discourse upon philosophy, handle a sword and shield better than a veteran soldier, and run faster and farther than any human. The only thing he couldn't do was perform magic. Even the simplest spells were beyond him, much to the sorcerer's frustration. Still, he thought it was a fair trade considering the boy's other gifts.

"Then one day, Marikar got into an argument with the sorcerer's eldest son. The sorcerer had never told his three children what he intended, but they still distrusted the newcomer and antagonized him at every opportunity. Normally, Marikar gave no sign that he had heard, but that day he reached across and snapped the older brother's neck as casually as you would snap a twig. The sorcerer had little love for his son but retained enough human feeling to be shocked and asked Marikar why he'd done it. 'Father, you did not give me a soul. Is that not reason enough?' He left before the sorcerer could answer.

"The next day, Marikar got into an argument with the second son and again he snapped his neck. The sorcerer asked him why he had done it and he gave the same answer as the day before. On the third day, he fought with the youngest son and killed him, again telling the sorcerer that he had no soul.

"By this time, the sorcerer was terrified. There was no one left for Marikar to kill but him. He did not wish to destroy the creation he had worked so hard on, and if Marikar did not ascend the throne after his death, then he would be forced to leave it to some stranger. So he went to a local priest to see what could be done and told him his story.

"'You idiot!' thundered the priest. 'Don't you know that souls are gifts from the gods alone?'

"Never mind that. How can the boy reign after me if he kills everything that angers him? I don't care what he does to the people, but his line will die with him. He will snap his son's neck, if he doesn't strangle any wife I find for him first. And he will kill me.'

"The priest laughed. 'You deserve what you get, blasphemer. As for the rest, Marikar has no soul. He is not truly alive. Those who are not alive cannot create life. Your heir is useless to y—'" Liara's voice was suddenly panicked. "Are you all right? You look like you're about to be sick."

[t3HPrO]

'Progressive damage' and 'benign neoplasm' is an oxymoron as it is. 'Nuff said. And yes, it would be OOC if Miranda wasn't bothered by her infertility. I have met numerous women with infertility problems down through the years, and not ONE of them didn't care that they were infertile. I myself am an IVF kid.

[The_Numerator]

You've a very lovely lilting writing style; it draws one in completely.

It certainly is "on-point". I couldn't say anything more about it out of context, really-- But I know that a long and detailed exposition is Liara's style, so it's not inconsistent with her at all. Still, as I say, it's out of context, and perhaps you wish to have Liara make the point with greater subtlety... But it seems a terrible shame to alter it. Ah, the burdens of editing.

But it's very lovely. Evocative, and "convincing", if that means anything to you-- It sounds completely like a "real" fairytale.

Modifié par The_Numerator, 10 novembre 2010 - 03:42 .

[Ryzaki]

I wonder why the wind suddenly blows in the opposite direction... You know, I imagine there are quite a few Miranda fans out there who'd like to imagine their Shepard and Miranda to have children. Would you deprive them of their preferred epilogues? I mean, Miranda is one of only two (!!) LIs you could actually have human children with. I can't imagine Bioware would restrict us to Ashley...

 

Ra forbid someone not have kids. The world would end. Frankly I hate the whole babies ever after crap it makes me sick. (Nothing against you personally). What is wrong with her not being able to have kids? I would like Miranda's character to have this become something she overcomes. Would you deprive me and the Miranda fans like me of this? 

Edit: Yeah this sounds way angrier than it should. Sorry I just had to deal with this "Women who don't have kids aren't doing anything worthwhile" from my uncle. <_< 

And to link her infertility to her genetic improvements, that would be absolutely the very last straw. I don't know what I'd do if that became canon. That's just to think that her being especially gifted means she has to be cursed by fate in some other aspect. Really, I hate that kind of thinking. We're not in a fantasy story, damn it! "The load she has to bear" indeed. Just reading the phrase makes me sick (sorry, nothing against you personally). Why can't there ever be a good thing without people wanting to destroy it for some misplaced notion of poetic justice.

Actually I would find it interesting. Her father in the attempt to make a perfect human made one that can never pass on that. Frankly characters who are especially gifted with no other visible flaws (and yes I know about her self-esteem but for the most part she's already gotten over that) boring as heck. Poetic justice? Who said anything about that? To me its simply a flaw that she would accept and move on showing her strength even more so as a character. I don't get why people are so upset. Heck what if Miranda was the type not to want kids? 

Now I understand why people would want her infertility cured but don't reduce those who don't to "poetic justice" seekers.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 novembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[The_Numerator]

Anyway, I got the impression that my inquiries were not completely clear.

Where to begin? So many posts... Let's see if I can't group related ideas together.

To begin, seems like there was some confusion over the use of the word "perfect".

By having placed "perfect" in quotations like that, it was clear that I was using it ironically.

Elyvern spoke of "a good number of emotional and psychological flaws to compensate.", and that's it exactly what I was speaking of-- More specifically, that she seems to catch a lot of flak over them. It goes without saying that she has these problems. It's the lack of sympathy for them which it was my interest to address.

Then, Ieldra2 mentioned briefly, here--

Ieldra2 wrote...
Obviously, Miranda appreciates her exceptional traits professionally, but in her being exceptionally gifted does not result in a sense of entitlement, but in a sense of obligation. She has those gifts, so she has a duty to use them for a worthy cause. I think that is an admirable mindset. Nothing to dislike her for.

-- Elyvern echoed that sentiment, talking about "things that require her to sacrifice personal entitlement for the sake of the bigger picture. She is literally the watchman that stands guard on the tower so the rest of the world can get a good night's sleep."

Obviously this is is all certainly true: She has a whole "with great power comes great responsibility" thing going on. Spiderman is lauded for "bearing that burden". But, as my original question sought to address, for some reason, if you're someone like Miranda, then you don't get credit for it.

And I jtav was off in the right direction with:

jtav wrote...
I think a lot of people's reaction to Miranda was "You're beautiful and brilliant and you're complaining about this? Cry me a river." For whatever reason, people are more sympathetic to physical abuse or problems than they are to psychological ones.

This is also a part of it. The key part, really, as it follows quite naturally from the first: If you've got everything going for you, popular sentiment seems to be that "you don't get to have problems". jtav also went toward the point about psychological trauma carrying a stigma while physical trauma is "legitimate". That's... sort of related... Actually, it raises another question in my mind that should be answered first:

I was under the impression that the lack of sympathy for Miranda's psychological problems were the result of them being dismissed because of her superior status and privileged life. Is this the case, or are they dismissed simply because they're "psychological" problems?

I think this can be answered by reference to Jack: Like Miranda, Jack endured a great deal of psychic trauma. But unlike Miranda, Jack endured a great deal of physical trauma which compounded that psychic trauma. Is Jack sympathetic for that physical trauma endured, but not the emotional scars that she has? Let us further suppose Jack lacked a history of physically violent abuse. So then, only Miranda's privileged life separates the two. Then the question is, would one be less sympathetic than the other? Are a poor person's mental wounds inherently greater than a wealthy person's? (And I should clarify to avoid confusion, that I use "poor" and "wealthy" quite broadly in this case to mean, respectively, someone who has had a hard life all around, and someone who has, except for those instances which brought about their psychological scars, lead a comfortable life.)

If the lack of sympathy shown Miranda is due to the fact that her wounds are emotional, well, then it follows that Jack only received sympathy because she was physically abused... I mean, it's just such an outrageous alternative, I can't possibly imagine that's the case. But, who knows? People are full of surprises.

Anyway, where was I? So getting over that hump, assuming my initial impression was correct, which I think I'm justified in expecting to find that it was, the discussion then moved to the fertility thing, which is... Well, it's an indirectly related matter, so I'll touch on it at the end, but first things first, because even in the midst of fertility discussions, Nightwriter hit it right on the head with,

Nightwriter wrote...
They trivialize her self-esteem issues, roll their eyes at them.

Then Collider came along and was all... Well, got to the heart of it. That,

Collider wrote...
IMO, no. Part of it was because she doesn't really have an active problems now.
Miranda is quite at home at Cerberus and she is highly appreciated. I
remember hearing one Cerberus person on the Normandy say that if Miranda
is on the job, they can get anything done. So it's like her problems
with taking credit for her achievements or her mistakes are not very
applicable now because Cerberus likes her and prizes her, and
certainly gives her credit for her achievements. Miranda seems
relatively content working with Cerberus.  

They should have
delved more into Miranda's childhood, just as they did with Jack. They
didn't give enough details. Not to mention one can expect that "rich,
had everything she wanted and asked for" is harder to relate to for most
people. I would have changed that and instead emphasized that Miranda
had only what was required for her to the "perfect daughter" - she
didn't get what she wanted so much as what her father wanted. That's a
lot easier to relate to, if one has overbearing parents.

Which seems to implicitly answer my question, "Yes, aristocrats are not allowed to have problems by virtue of their being aristocrats."

So why is that? Why are aristocrats not allowed to have psychological problems? Why do you have to have "endured" some unspecified minimum of suffering before your problems count? Isn't it reason enough that you know someone is causing someone else to suffer to empathize with them? Do their problems not matter because you think they've "had it easy"? (Not "you" you-- The general "you".)

I'm getting a bit lost now.  I'll throw that question back out with those my attempts to expand and clarify my original questions... Don't know how successful I was with the "clarifying" part though...

---

Beyond all that, as I was going to say before, when things turned to fertility, I was thrown off by her infertility being brought up as something which "goes so strongly against Miranda's representation of physical perfection, something which has been stressed so often throughout the game." It doesn't go against a previously established pattern of "perfection"-- It goes with a previously established pattern of stressing the illusive nature of that perfection. (Ha ha. See what I did there? Illusive. I was just going to use illusory, but really, how often do you actually get to use illusive in a sentence?)

But I say again, that I was bothered by revelations of her infertility-- Not because it was inconsistent with her "perfection"-- but because it was a step too far in the constant barrage of "Look, she's "perfect", but not really! Here's another thing wrong with her!" that she's endured.

A point that seemed to have gone across partially at least, as tommyt_1994 and Nightwriter picked up on it as being a pretty... "anvilicious" way to drive the point home. As if it was there way of helping Miranda meet the "unspecified minimum of suffering before your problems count".

[Collider]

Which seems to implicitly answer my question, "Yes, aristocrats are not allowed to have problems by virtue of their being aristocrats."

Not at all. It's the magnitude of the problems that count. That, and whether the problems actually apply. Miranda's current self esteem problems are largely self-inflicted.

Modifié par Collider, 10 novembre 2010 - 05:38 .