15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Collider wrote...

Which seems to implicitly answer my question, "Yes, aristocrats are not allowed to have problems by virtue of their being aristocrats."

Not at all. It's the magnitude of the problems that count. That, and whether the problems actually apply. Miranda's current self esteem problems are largely self-inflicted.

Self-inflicted? They're the result of years of emotional abuse!

[Collider]

Self-inflicted? They're the result of years of emotional abuse!

Right now they are self-inflicted. Like I said, Cerberus appreciates Miranda and gives her credit for her accomplishments. To give her self esteem problems more weight, they should have changed that. Instead of Cerberus loving her, Cerberus personnel should resent and envy her.



TIM should remain as is, but lower rank Cerberus members should dislike Miranda and chalk up all her achievements to her genetic engineering and nothing else. This would fit especially since Miranda doesn't really have any friends besides Nikhet (and you know how that turns out) and Shepard. And the fact that TIM would be the only one besides those two from Cerberus that don't revile her, would give even more better justification for her to be loyal to TIM.



Note that this isn't about whether I personally feel sympathy for Miranda. It's more about whether and in what way other people feel sympathy for Miranda. I believe when you have something like the rivalry and character foils that are Miranda and Jack, it shouldn't be so one sided. The troubles and sorrows of Jack's life are gone into great detail, yet Miranda's childhood isn't given the same amount of insight. They should have gone more in-depth with Miranda's past as that would have been a great way to learn more about her character and how her history affected her.



As well as, no doubt, making her more sympathetic to players. As it is, many people will defer automatically to Jack because of the vast disparity in representation between Jack's problems and Miranda's problems.

[Ieldra]

Collider wrote...

Self-inflicted? They're the result of years of emotional abuse!

Right now they are self-inflicted.

That's nonsense. The problems are very much in the present. Only their cause lies in the past. Here is it again, the lamentable tendency to belittle problems because they have no physical representation or their cause lies in the past. You could apply the same argument to Jack, but yet, nobody does. Why does nobody tell Jack to get the hell over it (not that I'd ever advocate that, just so there's no misunderstanding)?

Note that this isn't about whether I personally feel sympathy for Miranda. It's more about whether and in what way other people feel sympathy for Miranda. I believe when you have something like the rivalry and character foils that are Miranda and Jack, it shouldn't be so one sided. The troubles and sorrows of Jack's life are gone into great detail, yet Miranda's childhood isn't given the same amount of insight. They should have gone more in-depth with Miranda's past as that would have been a great way to learn more about her character and how her history affected her.

I agree very much they should have gone into more detail about Miranda's childhood. That would have been much better than giving her a problem that's in conflict with her character concept. Really, it's more people's attitude I hate: the attitude that someone must have a soul-crushing problem to be sympathetic, and especially that especially gifted people "need" a veritable mountain of psychic disasters to be sympathetic. I *like* that Miranda is gifted, I 'like* the that she appreciates her gifts at least professionally. I like her, in part, because of it, not in spite of it.

[Collider]

That's nonsense. The problems are very much in the present. Only their cause lies in the past. Here is it again, the lamentable tendency to belittle problems because they have no physical representation or their cause lies in the past. You could apply the same argument to Jack, but yet, nobody does. Why does nobody tell Jack to get the hell over it (not that I'd ever advocate that, just so there's no misunderstanding)?

I'm not belittling her problems, if that's what you're saying. I'm really just saying that her problems aren't as relevant as they used to be. They're far less relevant now. She's being appreciated, something that her father never gave her.



As to why people don't tell Jack to get over it, that's because Jack's problems are more current. When you first meet Jack, she's in prison. Purgatory is a ruthless facility that beats and abuses it's prisoners. Certainly not a fun existence. So up until you've recruited Jack, she's been put behind bars, so to speak. Her situation is bad the moment you meet her. You know she has problems when she talks about "bugs" in her head.



Although it's easy to miss, the player can also learn that Jack was raped in prison.



Shepard recruits Jack onto a team sponsored by the organization that for all intents and purposes tortured her. While I hardly sympathize (for the most part, not at all) with Jack lashing out & attacking Miranda during the confrontation, she's not having the time of her life on a Cerberus vessel. Miranda, in contrast, is quite content in Cerberus in comparison. That could be fixed with the Cerberus personnel disliking Miranda.



So the real problem, I think, is the unequal attention given to the things that have shaped Miranda and Jack the most. With Jack you get loads of information, with Miranda you really only get a taste of what made her who she is.

[Ieldra]

Collider wrote...
I'm not belittling her problems, if that's what you're saying. I'm really just saying that her problems aren't as relevant as they used to be. They're far less relevant now. She's being appreciated, something that her father never gave her.

She's *professionally* appreciated. That's good, yes, but that was never so much of a problem as that there isn't, and never was, anyone who cared about her except Niket, and that she has problems giving someone the chance to because of her childhood. Also, again because of her childhood and origins, she can't take self-value from being professionally appreciated as much because she feels her gifts are not truly hers.

As to why people don't tell Jack to get over it, that's because Jack's problems are more current. When you first meet Jack, she's in prison. Purgatory is a ruthless facility that beats and abuses it's prisoners. Certainly not a fun existence. So up until you've recruited Jack, she's been put behind bars, so to speak. Her situation is bad the moment you meet her. You know she has problems when she talks about "bugs" in her head.

Nobody denies that Jack's problems are a whole order of magnitude greater than Miranda's. That was never in question. The question I'd ask is: why does that make people more sympathetic to Jack, who is, honestly, a character I'd rather not have around me for any length of time, someone whose revenge will include, in her own words, killing the friends of those who were responsible for what was done to her. I'd prefer Miranda around me, even if her attitude never changed from the conversation on Minuteman station.

Although it's easy to miss, the player can also learn that Jack was raped in prison.

I'm not surprised, but I did miss that. How do you learn of it?

So the real problem, I think, is the unequal attention given to the things that have shaped Miranda and Jack the most. With Jack you get loads of information, with Miranda you really only get a taste of what made her who she is.

That is one problem, yes. But IMO the more basic one is that some people can't stand characters who are especially gifted, unless their problems are so big that they cancel out the gifts completely, making them "one of the crowd" again, to echo something Mondo47 said a few pages back. It's as if there is a need to look down on people, either from pity or from hate, it doesn't matter. Me, I'd rather look up, I don't want Miranda to be "one of the crowd", I want her to be one who pulls the rest of humanity along, by her example and by passing on her gifts. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 novembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[enayasoul]

Collider wrote...

Although it's easy to miss, the player can also learn that Jack was raped in prison.

I am pretty sure it was Jack's mother who was raped?  Her mother gave Jack up and thus Jack was experimented on.  

In the shadowbroker dossier - jack's... i'll have to go re-read it

but atm working on my fic writing and research. Funny how time slips by reading and taking notes on what to add later (medical jargon) haha. No sleep for meeeee.

[tommyt_1994]

Ieldra2 wrote...


I'm not surprised, but I did miss that. How do you learn of it?

Take Jack to Dark star on the citadel, it's the "Talk to Jack" option in the bathroom. She mentions that she was raped by multiple men at the same time. She then goes on to say that she killed them all for it.

[enayasoul]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...


I'm not surprised, but I did miss that. How do you learn of it?

Take Jack to Dark star on the citadel, it's the "Talk to Jack" option in the bathroom. She mentions that she was raped by multiple men at the same time. She then goes on to say that she killed them all for it.

OH!! I must have missed this! omg...

[Collider]

She's *professionally* appreciated. That's good, yes, but that was never so much of a problem as that there isn't, and never was, anyone who cared about her except Niket, and that she has problems giving someone the chance to because of her childhood. Also, again because of her childhood and origins, she can't take self-value from being professionally appreciated as much because she feels her gifts are not truly hers.

That is a good point. Something to think about.

Though, I'd have still had Cerberus personnel resent her.

Nobody denies that Jack's problems are a whole order of magnitude greater than Miranda's. That was never in question. The question I'd ask is: why does that make people more sympathetic to Jack, who is, honestly, a character I'd rather not have around me for any length of time, someone whose revenge will include, in her own words, killing the friends of those who were responsible for what was done to her. I'd prefer Miranda around me, even if her attitude never changed from the conversation on Minuteman station.

I'm not really sure of the answer to that question (as well as the one about Miranda being gifted), because it's personally easier for me to sympathize with Miranda (although of course, they are both deserving) I assume people are just looking at the severity of the troubles both characters went through. Jack has more. That, and people kind of look at Jack as a child, a kicked puppy if you will, and Miranda as an adult.

[Ieldra]

Prudii Aden wrote...
The gratuitous shot of Miri's backside comes from the conversation/briefing for her loyalty mission.

"The" gratuitous shot? If there were only one, there wouldn't be that much to complain about. But admittedly the one in her loyalty mission briefing is the worst by far. "Investigate", indeed. I bet some developer with a perverted sense of humor had a lot of fun creating that scene.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Remember that excerpt I promised? This is something different for me. Fairy tales Prothean style. I'm hoping to shorten it considerably in the next draft, and it's perhaps too on-point.

You know my first impulsive reaction? Liara deserves a singularity in the face for telling this story to Miranda without forewarning. Don't tell me she's doesn't react with cold anger (not at Liara, don't misunderstand me).

The fairy tale itself, hmm. It flows nicely, but there should be something specifically prothean in it. In my ears it sounds too human, it could have come from any human culture without a single word being different. it is perhaps a little on-point, but wasn't that the, er, point in the first place? I also think it shouldn't be shortened too much.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 novembre 2010 - 01:12 .

[Prudii Aden]

Changing the subject - found this one shot. It was written before the game came out, and is based on the dialogue from the Stars of Mass Effect promo.
Caution

Modifié par Prudii Aden, 10 novembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...

I wonder why the wind suddenly blows in the opposite direction... You know, I imagine there are quite a few Miranda fans out there who'd like to imagine their Shepard and Miranda to have children. Would you deprive them of their preferred epilogues? I mean, Miranda is one of only two (!!) LIs you could actually have human children with. I can't imagine Bioware would restrict us to Ashley...

Ra forbid someone not have kids. The world would end. Frankly I hate the whole babies ever after crap it makes me sick. (Nothing against you personally).

As strange as it sounds, so do I. I'm not one who wants my Shepard and Miranda to have children, except eventually, when I can't see it any more. I'd be happy with an epilogue that doesn't mention children at all.

What is wrong with her not being able to have kids? I would like Miranda's character to have this become something she overcomes. Would you deprive me and the Miranda fans like me of this?

She already has enough to overcome. Also, overcoming it, at the level of technology we see in ME2, means reversing it, and while my personal epilogue doesn't include any children, it does include a fertile Miranda being part of the after-the-Reapers galaxy, with or without Shepard, it doesn't matter.

Actually I would find it interesting. Her father in the attempt to make a perfect human made one that can never pass on that. Frankly characters who are especially gifted with no other visible flaws (and yes I know about her self-esteem but for the most part she's already gotten over that) boring as heck. Poetic justice? Who said anything about that? To me its simply a flaw that she would accept and move on showing her strength even more so as a character. I don't get why people are so upset. Heck what if Miranda was the type not to want kids?

Did you read jtav's excerpt on the previous page? There are altogether too many stories like that fairy tale Liara tells to Miranda. I'm thoroughly sick of them. I want something different for a change. I want that, just once, such a thing works as it should. I want a story about human ingenuity (in this case, with genetic engineering) resulting in a real improvement that can be passed on as its own kind of "advancement of humanity".
If Miranda doesn't want any children, then that's that. But it should be her decision. I don't want her story to incorporate yet another morality tale of the kind "if you try to create life, you will fail".

[Ieldra]

The_Numerator wrote...
I was under the impression that the lack of sympathy for Miranda's psychological problems were the result of them being dismissed because of her superior status and privileged life. Is this the case, or are they dismissed simply because they're "psychological" problems?

Your phrasing was sometimes confusing, The_Numerator, which is why I didn't understand you at first. In your long post which I've snipped, you've answered that question with "yes". I agree. Yes, in the eyes of many people, problems specially gifted people like Miranda have don't count until - and here I'm using my phrase from abovethread - their problems are big enough to completely cancel out their special gifts. For some people, there is a need to look down on others, and if they can't look down from pity, they'll do it from hate. And don't forget the misogyny angle: what a man gets a free pass for, a woman will be drawn and quartered for.

Maybe people not liking Miranda can't be reduced to *only* that. I think for some, that she's a Cerberus operative is a factor, and for others, the way she reacts to Shepard on Minuteman station gets overblown out of proportion until everything else she does it overshadowed by it. But in any case, that she's supremely gifted and that she's a woman is likely to turn any pre-existing dislike into full-blown hate.

[jtav]

To be fair, Ieldra, Liara has no way of knowing that she's hitting so close to home. It may also interest you to know (1)I'm writing Oriana as fertile. Miranda's infertility is not inherent in the process and (2)The salarians are beginning to adapt the technology, secretly and with no ill effects. Liara can't apologize fast enough once she learns how Miranda was created.

[Ieldra]

Ah....sorry about that, then. I thought I had read about Miranda telling Liara of her infertility. Or was that a different fanfic? (Edit: or is it Miranda's origin Liara doesn't know about? Ah...keeping track of who knows what in the different fanfics gets seriously confusing)

And thanks about the info....I appreciate it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 novembre 2010 - 02:23 .

[jtav]

Different story. Liara knows nothing about Miranda's past.



I wonder if there's anything to the fact that the ME LIs all could produce children and most of the ME2 pairings can't. Honestly, I hope her infertility isn't mentioned again. Right now I can cling to my image of the tumor being discovered during a routine exam and her not wanting kids. The idea of her as a single parent before ME2 is a bit scary, given the danger of her job, lack of support structure, and workaholic tendencies.

[Ieldra]

jtav, you have the knack of posting what I've scrupulously avoided to put into words. But I don't think there is an intended pattern to it, else Jacob would've been hit as well. Heh....should such a pattern emerge, it would be a reason to replay two of my femSheps and switch out Kaidan and Liara for Jacob and Garrus. I am contrary that way. Fairness to every LI in ME3 is a major consideration.

[hooahguy]

This isnt really Miri related, but I have a new fanfic published, its a Mass Effect/ Sins of a Solar Empire crossover fanfic. Miri is featured, as my Shep's wife, but if other Mirimancers can read it and possibly comment that would be awesome. Its my first ME fanfic.



http://www.fanfictio...crossover_story

[Ieldra]

And now the daily screenshot:


There's been a long time without an Everyone takes it as a given, but really it isn't. So....

(repeat after me): Miranda is awesome!

[jtav]

Anybody got a decent MaleShep face code? I find myself in the mood to romance her. And have I mentioned how much I like that she's clearly having fun the entire time during the sex scene? I question the timing, but I love that it's something healthy she enjoys.

And, ah Miranda is awesome! I love the screenshot.

Modifié par jtav, 10 novembre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Ieldra]

I envy you, jtav. You obviously have the willpower to start an ME2 game without having played through ME1. I'm somewhat obsessive in that I cannot. It will be some time before I see Miranda again

[jtav]

I don't own ME for the PC, remember? And who knows, maybe fifth time's the charm. I doubt it, but stranger things have happened.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I envy you, jtav. You obviously have the willpower to start an ME2 game without having played through ME1. I'm somewhat obsessive in that I cannot. It will be some time before I see Miranda again

It's not that bad. Killing off a potential resource aside (Rachni), Miranda would probably get along fine with Canon Shepard, romantic relationship or not

Not quite sure how the Nikket scene would play out, though. The people Canon Shepard killed did things far worse than Nikket. Oh well.

[jtav]

I edit my save to set appropriate plot flags. I like my squeaky clean Paragon games. Default leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Which probably explains more than it should about why I don't ship her with Shep.