15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

DarthCyclopsRLZ wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I envy you, jtav. You obviously have the willpower to start an ME2 game without having played through ME1. I'm somewhat obsessive in that I cannot. It will be some time before I see Miranda again

It's not that bad. Killing off a potential resource aside (Rachni), Miranda would probably get along fine with Canon Shepard, romantic relationship or not

Not quite sure how the Nikket scene would play out, though. The people Canon Shepard killed did things far worse than Nikket. Oh well.

As jtav said, you can always edit the flags. The reason why I do this is that I feel my Shepard's story is not complete, has no beginning, if I don't play through ME1. Shepards I make only for ME2 are somehow empty and I can't connect to them. Which makes Miranda's romance and LM unexciting. Fortunately, ME1 is about 30-50% shorter than ME2 depending on playstyle. And I do cheat for Paragon and Renegade points and for XP to bring me up to level 60 at the end.   

[Elyvern]

Hats off to you guys. How do you keep track of your various Shepard personalities? My Shepards are usually defined by 2 things: paragon-ish and renegad-ish. I don't play full paragons/renegades, but every paragon-ish shep I play the same way, so he's basically the same guy with slight permutations. (I guess that's why I have such a hard time articulating Shepard's motivations in my fanon, since I don't actively construct a backstory for him). The currently (only) renegade I have is an absolute ass though, so much so I'm quite disgusted with him. He has casual sex with Jack, recruits Morinth, and then kills them off to hide his "crime".

[jtav]

I'll be honest. I rarely put much thought into Shepard beyond who s/he will romance and whether they will be Paragon or Renegade. I'm much more particular about my written Shepards, but they function more as foils to Miranda than anything. The Shepard I play most often is one of those lucky people for whom things always work out. And he's not an idiot. Miranda just thinks he is.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As strange as it sounds, so do I. I'm not one who wants my Shepard and Miranda to have children, except eventually, when I can't see it any more. I'd be happy with an epilogue that doesn't mention children at all.

Then why does her ability to have children matter? 

She already has enough to overcome. Also, overcoming it, at the level of technology we see in ME2, means reversing it, and while my personal epilogue doesn't include any children, it does include a fertile Miranda being part of the after-the-Reapers galaxy, with or without Shepard, it doesn't matter.

Frankly I don't see her having enough to overcome personally. Though I don't see not being able to have kids as much as a punishment than a unique and tragic part of her character. It makes her more interesting to me. My personal epilogue just includes her running Cerberus and making it somewhat respectable. Her fertility means nothing. Never has. Never will. She can't have kids this doesn't stop her from in my mind (potentially) being a major power later on in her life.

Odd I know that I find it tragic but insist that it's not a big deal. To me it really isn't. Its sad that she can't (much like a genius who is blind) but that doesn't ruin her. It simply comes with the whole package.

And it is a very nice package.  

She seems the type to me to like being involved in something important and while childdren can be so I don't think it would be interesting enough for Miranda. She strikes me as a "Hi" kisses kid on cheek before going on to save the world kind of parent.

Did you read jtav's excerpt on the previous page? There are altogether too many stories like that fairy tale Liara tells to Miranda. I'm thoroughly sick of them. I want something different for a change. I want that, just once, such a thing works as it should. I want a story about human ingenuity (in this case, with genetic engineering) resulting in a real improvement that can be passed on as its own kind of "advancement of humanity".
If Miranda doesn't want any children, then that's that. But it should be her decision. I don't want her story to incorporate yet another morality tale of the kind "if you try to create life, you will fail".

Try to create life? More like try to create perfection. ...And failed at that.

Human ingenuity in my mind embraces the uniqueness of people and the fact that people have different strengths not try to make a bunch of super humans. And frankly I'm not sick of those kind of stories. I find them interesting.

Morality tale? If it was a morality tale Miranda would be a complete monster and wouldn't care about anything other than perfection. Seeing as she isn't its just something bad that happened to someone who didn't deserve it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 novembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As jtav said, you can always edit the flags. The reason why I do this is that I feel my Shepard's story is not complete, has no beginning, if I don't play through ME1. Shepards I make only for ME2 are somehow empty and I can't connect to them. Which makes Miranda's romance and LM unexciting. Fortunately, ME1 is about 30-50% shorter than ME2 depending on playstyle. And I do cheat for Paragon and Renegade points and for XP to bring me up to level 60 at the end.   

I'll agree the ME2 experience isn't the same. Not necessarily a bad thing, though.

Still, my point was rather about Canon Shepard's template being amongst the best for any type of interaction with Miranda.

Canon Shepard was mostly a pragmatic hardass and didn't romance anyone. Saved innocents, but killed potential bad guys and wouldn't risk the mission for the sake of sentimentaly. Much better template imo for a Miranda friendship/partnership/romance than heavily Paragon/Renegade.

As for the LM, there wasn't much in the way of ME1 squadmates being irrational and having their drama affect actual missions that much. There was the Wrex showdown and that was an extreme case that wasn't replicated in ME2. Anyway, a gray Shepard a la Canon Shepard would most likely struggle more often with LM decisions than a heavy Paragon/Renegade.

Modifié par DarthCyclopsRLZ, 10 novembre 2010 - 09:27 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
How do you keep track of your various Shepard personalities?

I have a very different approach to maleSheps and femSheps. My femSheps are all unique. I have:
-Rhea Shepard, a determined military type, history as a Commando, Spacer/Sole Survivor, Paragon-ish but let the Council die. Is with Kaidan.
-May Shepard, a beauty with a dark heart, Cerberus sympathizer, Renegade-ish but never a jerk to her own. Picked Udina as Councillor. Is with Liara and very much likes the changed Liara.
-Rani Shepard, an Earthborn/Sole Survivor who's something of a loner. Determined not to kill if it's avoidable, a bit distant to her crew but determined to keep them all alive, otherwise guided by cold reason, so she ended up more or less neutral. Actually, I envisioned her as somewhat similar to Miranda in personality even before I knew Miranda. They're becoming great friends. Is with Thane because he drew her in, but not completely comfortable with it at the same time.
-Louise Shepard....still in the works in ME1.

As opposed to that, my three maleSheps are very similar, probably because I find it hard not to put myself into their shoes. They tend to end up neutral with a slight Paragon overhang. I had one Renegade, but decided to replay him because he was no fun. The only real difference lies in their romances - one of them had Ashley in ME1. All of them have Miranda in ME2....for Miranda has no match.   Ah, and one of them actually destroyed the Collector base. I'm fighting the temptation to replay him.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 novembre 2010 - 09:38 .

[tommyt_1994]

DarthCyclopsRLZ wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As jtav said, you can always edit the flags. The reason why I do this is that I feel my Shepard's story is not complete, has no beginning, if I don't play through ME1. Shepards I make only for ME2 are somehow empty and I can't connect to them. Which makes Miranda's romance and LM unexciting. Fortunately, ME1 is about 30-50% shorter than ME2 depending on playstyle. And I do cheat for Paragon and Renegade points and for XP to bring me up to level 60 at the end.   

I'll agree the ME2 experience isn't the same. Not necessarily a bad thing, though.

Still, my point was rather about Canon Shepard's template being amongst the best for any type of interaction with Miranda.

Canon Shepard was mostly a pragmatic hardass and didn't romance anyone. Saved innocents, but killed potential bad guys and wouldn't risk the mission for the sake of sentimentaly. Much better template imo for a Miranda friendship/partnership/romance than heavily Paragon/Renegade.

As for the LM, there wasn't much in the way of ME1 squadmates being irrational and having their drama affect actual missions that much. There was the Wrex showdown and that was an extreme case that wasn't replicated in ME2. Anyway, a gray Shepard a la Canon Shepard would most likely struggle more often with LM decisions than a heavy Paragon/Renegade.

And now you understand my struggle . my canon shepar di svery morally gray. Killed the rachni and didn't save the council but he saved the colonists on Feros and captured Balak. I think a morally gray Shepard would mesh best with Miranda. Personally, I don't think she'd even be attracted to a pure paragon Shepard. I think she would seem his as too idealistic and naive. Sorry if I offend anyone with that, it's just my opinion. Does anyone else think she wouldn't get along with a pure paragon Shepard?

[Markinator_123]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

DarthCyclopsRLZ wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As jtav said, you can always edit the flags. The reason why I do this is that I feel my Shepard's story is not complete, has no beginning, if I don't play through ME1. Shepards I make only for ME2 are somehow empty and I can't connect to them. Which makes Miranda's romance and LM unexciting. Fortunately, ME1 is about 30-50% shorter than ME2 depending on playstyle. And I do cheat for Paragon and Renegade points and for XP to bring me up to level 60 at the end.   

I'll agree the ME2 experience isn't the same. Not necessarily a bad thing, though.

Still, my point was rather about Canon Shepard's template being amongst the best for any type of interaction with Miranda.

Canon Shepard was mostly a pragmatic hardass and didn't romance anyone. Saved innocents, but killed potential bad guys and wouldn't risk the mission for the sake of sentimentaly. Much better template imo for a Miranda friendship/partnership/romance than heavily Paragon/Renegade.

As for the LM, there wasn't much in the way of ME1 squadmates being irrational and having their drama affect actual missions that much. There was the Wrex showdown and that was an extreme case that wasn't replicated in ME2. Anyway, a gray Shepard a la Canon Shepard would most likely struggle more often with LM decisions than a heavy Paragon/Renegade.

And now you understand my struggle . my canon shepar di svery morally gray. Killed the rachni and didn't save the council but he saved the colonists on Feros and captured Balak. I think a morally gray Shepard would mesh best with Miranda. Personally, I don't think she'd even be attracted to a pure paragon Shepard. I think she would seem his as too idealistic and naive. Sorry if I offend anyone with that, it's just my opinion. Does anyone else think she wouldn't get along with a pure paragon Shepard?

A pure paragon Shepard is naive, not to mention a pandering wuss at times. I can imagine her  viewing that Shepard as being two weak willed and unwilling to make tough decisions when necessary. A pure paragon Shepard would fit somebody like Tali, not someone as morally complex as Miranda.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

tommyt_1994 wrote...
And now you understand my struggle . my canon shepar di svery morally gray. Killed the rachni and didn't save the council but he saved the colonists on Feros and captured Balak. I think a morally gray Shepard would mesh best with Miranda. Personally, I don't think she'd even be attracted to a pure paragon Shepard. I think she would seem his as too idealistic and naive. Sorry if I offend anyone with that, it's just my opinion. Does anyone else think she wouldn't get along with a pure paragon Shepard?

MIranda's gray alright, but she's hardly a monster.

She'd definitely be *annoyed* big time at a Pure Paragon Shepard.

As for Pure Renegade Shepard, she'd most likely be turned off. Pragmatic is one thing. Homicidal abusive a**hole is another.

Modifié par DarthCyclopsRLZ, 10 novembre 2010 - 09:52 .

[Elyvern]

tommyt_1994 wrote...
And now you understand my struggle . my canon shepar di svery morally gray. Killed the rachni and didn't save the council but he saved the colonists on Feros and captured Balak. I think a morally gray Shepard would mesh best with Miranda. Personally, I don't think she'd even be attracted to a pure paragon Shepard. I think she would seem his as too idealistic and naive. Sorry if I offend anyone with that, it's just my opinion. Does anyone else think she wouldn't get along with a pure paragon Shepard?

Hell, I can't get along with a pure paragon Shepard. Miranda would probably think he's an idealistic twit with too much dose of good luck on his side, and then shake her head in amazement when everything vaguely obstructing falls at his feet when he sneezes. She'd recognise that he gets the job done, but she'd have no respect for him because none of his achievements are due to his ability, but rather some cosmic god watching over his actions.

That would then cast a big dissonance between what she'd say to him in-game. If I were playing a full paragon, I'd be thinking she's probably just paying Shepard lip service when she says he has that fire that makes people follow him, and that would go totally against her well-defined preference for honesty. That or she's just as stupid as a full paragon Shepard is. Willing to pay lip service or blind stupidity are two things I cannot imagine about Miranda so I don't even want to play a full paragon Shepard because I'd need to rationalise those two things away.

Modifié par Elyvern, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[jtav]

My MaleShep and Miranda wouldn't last the week. I love my Paragons. Maybe I should bite the bullet and romance someone else.

[Ryzaki]

jtav wrote...

My MaleShep and Miranda wouldn't last the week. I love my Paragons. Maybe I should bite the bullet and romance someone else.

I feel your pain. I have a lot of pure paragons (though my canons are paragades) and I can't force them to romance anyone. Miranda's too cold and hell...she' Cerberus and the second she tried to brush off the incident with the Quarians Shep was done, Tali's his little sister and Jack...he doesn't recruit Jack. (In game she's either lazer'd or killed by the swarms). 

And my Renegades...hell they don't romance anyone ither. As far as they're concerned everyone can screw off. 

Huh.



I guess 99% of my Sheps are actually single. Awww... 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:05 .

[Markinator_123]

Ryzaki wrote...

jtav wrote...

My MaleShep and Miranda wouldn't last the week. I love my Paragons. Maybe I should bite the bullet and romance someone else.

I feel your pain. I have a lot of pure paragons (though my canons are paragades) and I can't force them to romance anyone. Miranda's too cold and hell...she' Cerberus and the second she tried to brush off the incident with the Quarians Shep was done, Tali's his little sister and Jack...he doesn't recruit Jack. (In game she's either lazer'd or killed by the swarms). 

And my Renegades...hell they don't romance anyone ither. As far as they're concerned everyone can screw off. 

Huh.



I guess 99% of my Sheps are actually single. Awww... 

I applaud you for being able to play as a pure paragon Shepard. I can't do it. It would just make me vomit.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As strange as it sounds, so do I. I'm not one who wants my Shepard and Miranda to have children, except eventually, when I can't see it any more. I'd be happy with an epilogue that doesn't mention children at all.

Then why does her ability to have children matter?

Because I'm a transhumanist, and I think humanity could - and should - try to overcome some of its limitations and improve some of its abilities by genetic engineering. For that reason, I want my ME universe to include a viable human with Miranda's improved traits. OK, Oriana could be that, but I'd prefer Miranda.

As for "perfection", perfection doesn't exist, everyone has a different vision. Miranda isn't perfect, and no one can ever be perfect because there's no measuring stick for perfection. I wish the game had avoided that term. That's the reason why I always speak of "improvements". Because of that, and because Individual uniqueness comes to a large part from personal history - see Miranda and Oriana as a prime example - there's little danger of that being lost in a world with widespread genetic engineering. I think Miranda's father has done a very desirable thing when he created Miranda, even if it was for all the wrong reasons, and I don't want Miranda's improved traits to be lost from humanity's gene pool.  

Note, BTW, that all that doesn't change one bit how I think of her as a person. I love her, she's a person I can connect with, more than anyone else of the ME1/2 cast and only comparable with Kaidan, and my Shepards will be with her regardless of her infertility and don't love her less for it.

[Jebel Krong]

how does "pure" - exist, outside the rigid structure of a game? - what character is like that really? i find it very confusing that people would be compulsive enough to railroad themselves into only being one or the other, when everyone else around them is finally more complex than that. it's very abstract.

[Jebel Krong]

Elyvern wrote...

Hats off to you guys. How do you keep track of your various Shepard personalities? My Shepards are usually defined by 2 things: paragon-ish and renegad-ish. I don't play full paragons/renegades, but every paragon-ish shep I play the same way, so he's basically the same guy with slight permutations. (I guess that's why I have such a hard time articulating Shepard's motivations in my fanon, since I don't actively construct a backstory for him). The currently (only) renegade I have is an absolute ass though, so much so I'm quite disgusted with him. He has casual sex with Jack, recruits Morinth, and then kills them off to hide his "crime".

haha - that's really good, though

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
My MaleShep and Miranda wouldn't last the week. I love my Paragons. Maybe I should bite the bullet and romance someone else.

Perhaps bite the bullet and play a Shepard with a little more Renegade in him? I think there are enough justifiable Renegade decisions in both games to make him acceptable to both you and Miranda.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:11 .

[Markinator_123]

Jebel Krong wrote...

how does "pure" - exist, outside the rigid structure of a game? - what character is like that really? i find it very confusing that people would be compulsive enough to railroad themselves into only being one or the other, when everyone else around them is finally more complex than that. it's very abstract.

Believe it or not some people literally play as a pure paragon. They absolutely pick no renegade options (or try not to anyway).

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Jebel Krong wrote...

how does "pure" - exist, outside the rigid structure of a game? - what character is like that really? i find it very confusing that people would be compulsive enough to railroad themselves into only being one or the other, when everyone else around them is finally more complex than that. it's very abstract.

Not to mention a lot of the gray/default dialogue sound a lot more honest.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As strange as it sounds, so do I. I'm not one who wants my Shepard and Miranda to have children, except eventually, when I can't see it any more. I'd be happy with an epilogue that doesn't mention children at all.

Then why does her ability to have children matter?

Because I'm a transhumanist, and I think humanity could - and should - try to overcome some of its limitations and improve some of its abilities by genetic engineering. For that reason, I want my ME universe to include a viable human with Miranda's improved traits. OK, Oriana could be that, but I'd prefer Miranda.

As for "perfection", perfection doesn't exist, everyone has a different vision. Miranda isn't perfect, and no one can ever be perfect because there's no measuring stick for perfection. I wish the game had avoided that term. That's the reason why I always speak of "improvements". Because of that, and because Individual uniqueness comes to a large part from personal history - see Miranda and Oriana as a prime example - there's little danger of that being lost in a world with widespread genetic engineering. I think Miranda's father has done a very desirable thing when he created Miranda, even if it was for all the wrong reasons, and I don't want Miranda's improved traits to be lost from humanity's gene pool.  

Note, BTW, that all that doesn't change one bit how I think of her as a person. I love her, she's a person I can connect with, more than anyone else of the ME1/2 cast and only comparable with Kaidan, and my Shepards will be with her regardless of her infertility and don't love her less for it.

Ah I see your point even if i completely disagree. 

Still I want Miranda to lead Cerberus. It would be awesome. 

[Elyvern]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Hats off to you guys. How do you keep track of your various Shepard personalities? My Shepards are usually defined by 2 things: paragon-ish and renegad-ish. I don't play full paragons/renegades, but every paragon-ish shep I play the same way, so he's basically the same guy with slight permutations. (I guess that's why I have such a hard time articulating Shepard's motivations in my fanon, since I don't actively construct a backstory for him). The currently (only) renegade I have is an absolute ass though, so much so I'm quite disgusted with him. He has casual sex with Jack, recruits Morinth, and then kills them off to hide his "crime".

haha - that's really good, though

I assume you're applauding my renegade Shepard? What's with you and renegades anyway.

[Ryzaki]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

how does "pure" - exist, outside the rigid structure of a game? - what character is like that really? i find it very confusing that people would be compulsive enough to railroad themselves into only being one or the other, when everyone else around them is finally more complex than that. it's very abstract.

Believe it or not some people literally play as a pure paragon. They absolutely pick no renegade options (or try not to anyway)

Yeah. It was painful but I did it.  It makes me feel somewhat better to think of them as pure idealists who had one childhood lover who died before the relationship soured. 

Though by god I hate listening to that Krogan. <_< 

Frankly I can't picture Paragon Shep (pure paragon) as anything other than a Spacer/War Hero. I just can't. I can at least picture a pure Renegade as being any of the origins but not a pure paragon. ...Though for a PR the WH origin kind of stretches it to me. 

Honestly my favorite shep is mostly paragon but with enough brains to make renegade choices (listening to that Volus when he said "all eclipse sisters kill for their uniform" for one thing and shooting someone drawing a gun on him for another.) 

...That said he doesn't get along with Miranda either.  He respects her but he doesn't trust her or anyone else from Cerberus to have his back. (Thus he never takes her anywhere with him) he gains some respect for her after her loyalty mission but by then he had recruited Tali and Garrus and was busy talking with hem to pay any attention to anyone else. (Yes I pretend my Shep actually has decent amounts of conversations with them ) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:21 .

[jtav]

It doesn't, but Paragon=more content and ME is a very idealistic universe. DAO is different.



I suppose I'm fortunate in seeing loads of chemistry between Miranda/Liara. They're both pretty gray, so there's no "saving her from herself."

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

jtav wrote...

It doesn't, but Paragon=more content and ME is a very idealistic universe. DAO is different.

I suppose I'm fortunate in seeing loads of chemistry between Miranda/Liara. They're both pretty gray, so there's no "saving her from herself."

But what about Canon acknowledging that Liara has a total creep-on over Shepard?

[Jebel Krong]

Elyvern wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Hats off to you guys. How do you keep track of your various Shepard personalities? My Shepards are usually defined by 2 things: paragon-ish and renegad-ish. I don't play full paragons/renegades, but every paragon-ish shep I play the same way, so he's basically the same guy with slight permutations. (I guess that's why I have such a hard time articulating Shepard's motivations in my fanon, since I don't actively construct a backstory for him). The currently (only) renegade I have is an absolute ass though, so much so I'm quite disgusted with him. He has casual sex with Jack, recruits Morinth, and then kills them off to hide his "crime".

haha - that's really good, though

I assume you're applauding my renegade Shepard? What's with you and renegades anyway.

oh yes (but it's not a renegade thing i'd do). i guess i'm just drawn to/have an affinity with the darker side of human nature... besides t's a lot more... liberating to go around venting the bad guys in the head (& occasionally the not-so bad guys, too)... what's the point of having power if you can't use & abuse it? back in the days when han shot first - he was my favourite because of that edge.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:22 .