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Miranda Lawson - our favorite woman in the galaxy (III)


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#9101
Markinator_123

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jtav wrote...

It doesn't, but Paragon=more content and ME is a very idealistic universe. DAO is different.

I suppose I'm fortunate in seeing loads of chemistry between Miranda/Liara. They're both pretty gray, so there's no "saving her from herself."


I disagree with Mass Effect being an idealistic universe. While it is not the most cynical universe, calling the universe idealistic is pushing it. Both Mass Effect and Dragon age Origins have crapsack worlds. Dragon Age is just worse.
Let me just say that I have seen some idealistic universes and Mass Effect is not idealistic. Pure Idealism would get you killed in this universe if you didn't have Shepard's plot armor.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:30 .


#9102
Ieldra

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Ryzaki wrote...
Still I want Miranda to lead Cerberus. It would be awesome. B)

You may disagree with me elsewhere, but here we're absolutely compatible. Unfortunately, Cerberus has become somewhat surplus to requirements by Liara's becoming the Shadow Broker.

#9103
Elyvern

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Jebel Krong wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

I assume you're applauding my renegade Shepard? What's with you and renegades anyway. Posted Image


oh yes (but it's not a renegade thing i'd do). i guess i'm just drawn to/have an affinity with the darker side of human nature... besides t's a lot more... liberating to go around venting the bad guys in the head (& occasionally the not-so bad guys, too)... what's the point of having power if you can't use & abuse it?


In all honesty, the renegade was my projection of what would happen if *I* was given that kind of power and could abuse it. I'd sate my deepest desires (those that I'd never let see the light of day) and then cover it all up to appear like an morally upright social example. It's really the most despicable of despicable. That Shepard is actually afraid that Miranda would find out, because if she did, she'd probably want to shoot him in the head herself since I romanced her and then deceived her. God....talking about it makes me feel like I want to go delete him now....  

#9104
jtav

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DarthCyclopsRLZ wrote...

But what about Canon acknowledging that Liara has a total creep-on over Shepard? ;)


It's not that har actually since I don't see Liara as pathological. She moves on. The fact that Miranda is her mentor/assistant/confindante/lover in Shepard's absence has something to do with it.

#9105
DarthCyclopsRLZ

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jtav wrote...

It's not that har actually since I don't see Liara as pathological. She moves on. The fact that Miranda is her mentor/assistant/confindante/lover in Shepard's absence has something to do with it.


But she *doesn't*. Her idea of moving on is obsessing over someone who wanted to hurt Shepard, track him/her down and then SLAY him/her. In Canon, anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I *love* old school revenge movies. Totally awesome. Still, it's most certainly not *anywhere* near healthy or moving on.

Modifié par DarthCyclopsRLZ, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:38 .


#9106
Ryzaki

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Still I want Miranda to lead Cerberus. It would be awesome. B)

You may disagree with me elsewhere, but here we're absolutely compatible. Unfortunately, Cerberus has become somewhat surplus to requirements by Liara's becoming the Shadow Broker.


Why so? Cerberus is about the advancement of humanity is it not? Liara simply has vasts amounts of information. While that can help Cerberus by no means does she make them obsolete.

#9107
tommyt_1994

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DarthCyclopsRLZ wrote...


MIranda's gray alright, but she's hardly a monster.

Did I make it seem as if i believed that to be so? If I did, I apoligize I didn't mean that in the least. I simply think that Miranda would get along and be more attracted to someone she can relate to. Someone who knows the universe isn't so black and white like a morally gray Shepard.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 11 novembre 2010 - 12:07 .


#9108
DarthCyclopsRLZ

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[quote]tommyt_1994 wrote...

[/quote]
Did I make it seem as if i believed that to be so? If I did, I apoligize I didn't mean that in the least. I simply think that Miranda would get along and be more attracted to someone she can relate to. Someone who knows the universe isn't so black and white like a morally gray Shepard.

[/quote]

Not at all.  It was meant as an overall assessment to set up the statements that followed. ;)

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
Why so? Cerberus
is about the advancement of humanity is it not?
[/quote]

No, no it isn't. If it truly was, they wouldn't put a lying, manipulative, murderous SUPREMACIST nutjob in charge. :)

That being said, the overall Cerberus 'grunt' thinks it does.  Miranda might have a higher rank than the average operative, but she has such a disposition. Just so we're clear, that's *significantly better* than the next option.

The ones with an actual clue, though, know it's about pwning other species down the line.

Modifié par DarthCyclopsRLZ, 11 novembre 2010 - 12:13 .


#9109
jtav

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I watched Miranda's death on YT. It works for me in a twistedly romantic way. She's clearly alive when Shepard gets to her and dies in his arms. I can see Shepard promising to do anything in exchange for another Lazarus. TIM could have him doing dirty work for years. I doubt Miranda would be pleased.

#9110
Ryzaki

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jtav wrote...

I watched Miranda's death on YT. It works for me in a twistedly romantic way. She's clearly alive when Shepard gets to her and dies in his arms. I can see Shepard promising to do anything in exchange for another Lazarus. TIM could have him doing dirty work for years. I doubt Miranda would be pleased.


Only problem I see with that theory is that Shep would have to save the base. After all don't you need a corpse for the Lazarus project? 

Along with the fact that Miranda herself was said to be one of the head researchers and wasn't most of the info lost? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 novembre 2010 - 01:16 .


#9111
jtav

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They recover the bodies, as evidenced by the coffins. I doubt Miranda is completely irreplaceable. The real kicker is that a romanced Miranda can't die, but work with me.



And I suddenly realize the Normandy has been carrying those coffins from the beginning. Brr.

#9112
tommyt_1994

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jtav wrote...

They recover the bodies, as evidenced by the coffins. I doubt Miranda is completely irreplaceable. The real kicker is that a romanced Miranda can't die, but work with me.

And I suddenly realize the Normandy has been carrying those coffins from the beginning. Brr.

I'm pretty sure the coffins were there to pay their respects to the dead; the coffins acted as a symbol of their death and weren't actually filled. I'm quite sure this is true because the coffins are there even if the base was destroyed, and I doubt they crew carried around a bunch of dead comrades back to the ship. They were forced to leave them where they died, I believe.

#9113
Elyvern

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I know this sounds stupid but uhh...I've tried to run all over the ship, especially engineering deck to look out at the docking bay on a playthrough where I killed off some people. Never saw the coffins. Where the hell are they?

#9114
tommyt_1994

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Elyvern wrote...

I know this sounds stupid but uhh...I've tried to run all over the ship, especially engineering deck to look out at the docking bay on a playthrough where I killed off some people. Never saw the coffins. Where the hell are they?

I don't think you can see them unless someone dies during the Suicide Mission. During the final cutscene, Shepard will look at x amount of coffins in the cargo bay all lined up next to eachother. X being the number of deceased squadmates.

#9115
Ieldra

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jtav wrote...
And I suddenly realize the Normandy has been carrying those coffins from the beginning. Brr.

I've always assumed they're made from replacement parts. Carrying coffins into a mission is bad for morale, even if it's a suicide mission.

#9116
The_Numerator

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Gorrr.... I love having to go through 24-hours worth of posts at once.

You know what? I'm not going to even bother with quotes. I'm just going to copy and paste out of notepad the notes I jotted down as I read through 3 pages, and you can figure it out. It's more-or-less in order, so it shouldn't be too bad.

Actually, I see now it really looks like **** without quotes... Damn it. Maybe I'll give it some tiny cleanup...

For Collider: {When you talk about "magnitude", it sounds again like this notion that Miranda has a greater "suffering-quota" that she has to satisfy before she's allowed sympathy. And let's not split hairs-- Ultimately, all self-esteem problems are self-inflicted. Are self-inflicted problems a lesser class of problem? Problems are problems are problems.

You don't need to know what happened in Miranda's childhood to empathize with her. "Why" they have their problems isn't even important as far as empathy goes. You offer sympathy. because they have problems, regardless of the source of them.}

For Ieldra: {Wait, what's her problem that's in conflict with her character concept?}

For Collider: {It seems a bit like you think I'm talking about some kind of "post-ME2" Miranda. I'm talking about Miranda in ME2 as the model for exceptional people having problems of their own.

At any rate, I'm still not sure I understand what you mean when you speak of problems being "current" or not. After what you mentioned about Jack... It sounds like you're talking about a sense of immediacy to the problems... Which may also have been what you had in mind when you talked about "magnitude"? That greater "immediacy" naturally lends to a sense of greater "magnitude" of the problem?

Anyway, whether Miranda is "appreciated" by others isn't important, or at least she does nothing to suggest that it is. Her problems are, as has been said, about self-esteem-- But again, these aren't external matters. It's about self-respect. No respect from others is going to make you feel any better if you can't respect yourself.}

For Ieldra: {"the more basic one is that some people can't stand characters who are especially gifted, unless their problems are so big that they cancel out the gifts completely, making them "one of the crowd" again, to echo something Mondo47 said a few pages back. It's as if there is a need to look down on people, either from pity or from hate, it doesn't matter. Me, I'd rather look up, I don't want Miranda to be "one of the crowd", I want her to be one who pulls the rest of humanity along, by her example and by passing on her gifts.  "

Very good. So is this the crux of it then? A sort of obscured jealousy or insecurity on the part of the peasantry? "If they can't bring their betters down to their level, will seek to get at them any other way they can"? In this case, by denying them the dignities expected to be afforded to any human being?

If this is so, then you've answered your own question, "why does that make people more sympathetic to Jack"? Because she's "one of them".}



God, that's some unpolished **** right there. Almost incomprehensible. Damn, you Miranda thread people go through pages fast. XD I had wanted to go into the business about "babies ever after"-- But I'm so tired. And of course, I want to go to bed, because I'm so looking forward to getting to go through another 24 hours of posts all at one time tomorrow.

XD Oh. Poor me.

#9117
Ieldra

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Ryzaki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Still I want Miranda to lead Cerberus. It would be awesome. B)

You may disagree with me elsewhere, but here we're absolutely compatible. Unfortunately, Cerberus has become somewhat surplus to requirements by Liara's becoming the Shadow Broker.


Why so? Cerberus is about the advancement of humanity is it not? Liara simply has vasts amounts of information. While that can help Cerberus by no means does she make them obsolete.

I meant in terms of the game. The setup looks like Cerberus won't have any place in ME3 except as a spearhead of the human supremacist faction. If so, I wouldn't want Miranda there. If they'd actually give us a change to curb their worst excesses while making them continue to work for humanity's advancement by placing Miranda in charge, then I'd be all for it. I'm pessimistic, though. So for everything about the ME story has been pretty unsubtle.

#9118
Jebel Krong

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Elyvern wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

I assume you're applauding my renegade Shepard? What's with you and renegades anyway. Posted Image


oh yes (but it's not a renegade thing i'd do). i guess i'm just drawn to/have an affinity with the darker side of human nature... besides t's a lot more... liberating to go around venting the bad guys in the head (& occasionally the not-so bad guys, too)... what's the point of having power if you can't use & abuse it?


In all honesty, the renegade was my projection of what would happen if *I* was given that kind of power and could abuse it. I'd sate my deepest desires (those that I'd never let see the light of day) and then cover it all up to appear like an morally upright social example. It's really the most despicable of despicable. That Shepard is actually afraid that Miranda would find out, because if she did, she'd probably want to shoot him in the head herself since I romanced her and then deceived her. God....talking about it makes me feel like I want to go delete him now....  


yeah, exactly - all my shepards are like idealised versions of me, if i were in that situation. and yes i would leave as many hats on the floor if i could... :devil: but at the end of the day you're still RPing a hero, so i don't worry about the reactions of others.

#9119
Ieldra

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The_Numerator wrote...
Wait, what's her problem that's in conflict with her character concept?

Her character concept includes something like "physical perfection". Whichever definition of that you're using, it would most notably include the most basic faculty of any functional lifeform: being able to reproduce.

Ieldra2 wrote...
[...] the more basic one is that some people can't stand characters who are especially gifted, unless their problems are so big that they cancel out the gifts completely, making them "one of the crowd" again, to echo something Mondo47 said a few pages back. It's as if there is a need to look down on people, either from pity or from hate, it doesn't matter. Me, I'd rather look up, I don't want Miranda to be "one of the crowd", I want her to be one who pulls the rest of humanity along, by her example and by passing on her gifts.


Very good. So is this the crux of it then? A sort of obscured jealousy or insecurity on the part of the peasantry? "If they can't bring their betters down to their level, will seek to get at them any other way they can"? In this case, by denying them the dignities expected to be afforded to any human being?

If this is so, then you've answered your own question, "why does that make people more sympathetic to Jack"? Because she's "one of them".}

I wouldn't use the "aristocrats" analogy. After all, the classic aristocrats were resented because they thought they were entitled to their privileges without actually being any better than most others. Miranda is different. She doesn't have that sense of entitlement but a sense of obligation instead, and to top that, she actually *is* better than others in some aspects. 

But basically, yes, that need to pull others down to below one's own level is what I see at work here. Just look at the tabloids anywhere in the world, the glee with which the scandals of the privileged are displayed for the masses to consume, and you'll see how widespread that is. And if there is no scandal to hang resentment on (btw, see how accusations Miranda is a sl*t fit into this pattern), belittling their problems as insignifant and resorting to hate may do.

Granted, Miranda's affiliation with Cerberus doesn't help and can be a legitimate reason to dislike her, but the the full-blown hate we sometimes see, that's a result of that visceral resentment. To make it worse, she refuses to stroke the player's ego at the first meeting, and to make it infinitely worse, she refuses to be dishonestly modest about being especially gifted and has the gall to actually appreciate her own improved traits as valuable for a job that has become her calling, even though it doesn't give her real self-esteem. Some people don't forgive her that. I admire her for it.

Edit:
It's interesting how Grunt can get away with saying "I'm pure krogan, you should be in awe", but Miranda is hated for an "arrogance" she doesn't have. Likely a human man wouldn't cause such a reaction as well. Damn double standard.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2010 - 10:09 .


#9120
Elyvern

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It boggles me that sympathy must even come into this equation. Can't there be liking based on admiration? Why must everything be banked on being "identifiable" and "sympathetic" to be able to appreciate a character? When I hear things like "oh she's a uppity b*itch, she's a cold fish" it feels like people confound Shepard's position with their own. It's not like there is any chance you will ever have to interact with such characters personally, and Shepard is more than capable enough of holding his/her own with people like that. Given that, I suspect if we take out the interactive element from the equation, likely there will be less intense feelings about many of the characters.

Also, it's likely we can't discount things like age here given that this is a computer game. Teenagers tend to like and hate more and sometimes for all sorts of stupid reasons. Hell, when I was 17, I thought the sun should go supernova and blow up the world. Everything was hateful to me. Everything I found impossible to relate to, I dismissed from my mind. Ego-centricity is one of the hallmarks of youth. That may also explain the reasoning for the crapload of badly written, badly spelt and grammatically incorrect fics out there composed seemingly for the sole reason of doing awful things to characters the writers obviously dislike. Rational adults who aren't suffering from bipolar depression usually don't write those.

Modifié par Elyvern, 11 novembre 2010 - 10:24 .


#9121
Ieldra

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To break up the walls of text a bit.



Posted Image


#9122
hooahguy

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Ieldra2 has the right idea...



Posted Image

#9123
jtav

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I'm really quite jealous of those eyes of hers *grumbles*



Anyone here read Guy Gavriel Kay? I'm reading The Sarantine Mosaic and Alixana is reminding me of Miranda for some reason. Maybe it's the infertility or the ruthlessness without callousness. I'd be very happy if post-ME3 Shepard/Miranda had the same kind of relationship she does with Valerius.

#9124
Collider

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For Collider: {It seems a bit like you think I'm talking about some kind of "post-ME2" Miranda. I'm talking about Miranda in ME2 as the model for exceptional people having problems of their own.


I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't think anything like that.



At any rate, I'm still not sure I understand what you mean when you speak of problems being "current" or not. After what you mentioned about Jack... It sounds like you're talking about a sense of immediacy to the problems... Which may also have been what you had in mind when you talked about "magnitude"? That greater "immediacy" naturally lends to a sense of greater "magnitude" of the problem?


Yes. Basically.

Part of it as I stated is that the game focuses on Jack's issues far, far more than Miranda's. This is lopsided. And not the right route to go when those two characters are foils for each other and have their confrontation. I noticed that some people (whether it's most, who knows) who sided with Jack did so largely because they felt sorry for Jack and not so much for Miranda. I think they cleared intended for the player to feel sympathy for them. But the execution could have been better.



Anyway, whether Miranda is "appreciated" by others isn't important, or at least she does nothing to suggest that it is. Her problems are, as has been said, about self-esteem-- But again, these aren't external matters. It's about self-respect. No respect from others is going to make you feel any better if you can't respect yourself.}


It is important. And do you honestly think that Miranda doesn't respect herself? She obviously has self esteem issues, but that's a far cry from not respecting oneself. Unless you mean the outfit, which I hardly think is evidence.

#9125
Ieldra

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jtav wrote...
I'm really quite jealous of those eyes of hers *grumbles*

Anyone here read Guy Gavriel Kay? I'm reading The Sarantine Mosaic and Alixana is reminding me of Miranda for some reason. Maybe it's the infertility or the ruthlessness without callousness. I'd be very happy if post-ME3 Shepard/Miranda had the same kind of relationship she does with Valerius.

It's been some time since I read - what was it again? - yes, the Fionavar Tapestry. I liked that, but the setting of The Sarantine Mosaic, and most of anything else he wrote after, didn't appeal to me at first glance, so I stopped reading him.
Hmm...it didn't occur to me to look for Miranda-like characters in the books I've read. No main character immediately comes to mind, only Velindre from The Aldabreshin Compass by Juliet McKenna, an unfortunately minor character I've always wanted to read more of.