15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

...Collider's post just made me think this but..about her outfit. Does anyone else here think it fits her character at all? Because I don't.

[jtav]

I don't either. It's needless and blatant oversexualization. Grr.



One thing: I would not wish for Miranda to become dominated or overly defined by her troubles. She's scarred by her past, but not defined by it. I don't want her to be loaded down with some pile of physical and psychic trauma in a bid to make her more "sympathetic." I realize I'm being a bit hypocritical in saying that. I don't want her to suddenly not be able to at least somewhat deal with her own emotional problems. She's a jerk occasionally. Partly because of her past but her past doesn't excuse her behavior. I like it. It's a character flaw. I do feel a bit sorry for her, but I like that she doesn't need it.

[Ieldra]

Quite so, jtav. A character doesn't need a sh*tload of problems to be liked. I like that she's competent and independent in spite of her problems. A very long time ago (see OP), I've written that she can deal with her problems herself, given time and circumstances, and that I like her for it.

I also don't subscribe to the philosophy "give someone a problem and it will make people more sympathetic". I despise those people whose sympathy depends on the object of their sympathy being somehow less than themselves. When Miranda refused to stroke the player's ego at Minuteman station, giving Shepard a rebuff instead, my immediate reaction was "at last, a woman who stands on her own and doesn't fall at my feet for emotional support". I also like that she appreciates it when it's given, later in the relationship, but she should never become dependent on it.

@Ryzaki:
A less blatantly sexualized outfit is on this thread's wishlist for Miranda in ME3. See OP.

@all:
Would you find it terribly arrogant if I re-posted the "Miranda Manifesto" in the thread? As well as other OP content - nobody seems to read OPs, not even the rare lurker, and there is some nice stuff in there. Another candidate for re-posting is the fanfic list.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2010 - 06:39 .

[jtav]

This may get me in trouble, but I don't care if the majority likes her. I like that she's smart and competent and that she knows it. She does not need to compensate for it.

Edit: I don't mind if you repost them Ieldra.

Modifié par jtav, 11 novembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[Elyvern]

go ahead, Ieldra *goes back to lurking*

[hooahguy]

I dont think her outfit is too sexualized. Except her back-end. Other than that im fine with it.

[Ryzaki]

Meh I don't need a character to have a "sympathy" tweak to like them. Just for them to be relatable to me.

[tommyt_1994]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Quite so, jtav. A character doesn't need a sh*tload of problems to be liked. I like that she's competent and independent in spite of her problems. A very long time ago (see OP), I've written that she can deal with her problems herself, given time and circumstances, and that I like her for it.

I also don't subscribe to the philosophy "give someone a problem and it will make people more sympathetic". I despise those people whose sympathy depends on the object of their sympathy being somehow less than themselves. When Miranda refused to stroke the player's ego at Minuteman station, giving Shepard a rebuff instead, my immediate reaction was "at last, a woman who stands on her own and doesn't fall at my feet for emotional support". I also like that she appreciates it when it's given, later in the relationship, but she should never become dependent on it.

@Ryzaki:
A less blatantly sexualized outfit is on this thread's wishlist for Miranda in ME3. See OP.

@all:
Would you find it terribly arrogant if I re-posted the "Miranda Manifesto" in the thread? As well as other OP content - nobody seems to read OPs, not even the rare lurker, and there is some nice stuff in there. Another candidate for re-posting is the fanfic list.

I agree with you whole-heartedly here. I like that she has problems, because hey everyone does. But I love the fact that they don't dominate her like some. Being able to deal with your own problems is an admirable trait and it shows her inner strength, I believe. The outfit is also something I really want changed, at least on missions. Hey Bioware! Not all 16 year olds are mindless "I wanna see some b00bz!" freaks. Some of us are actually open-minded, rational people<_<. /rant

I would prefer the ME1 style of armor on missions, casual outfits on the ship. Something like her loyalty outfit on the ship and some nice light armor on missions? 

And feel free to post the manifesto, more people need to see the great stuff going on in the OP.

jtav wrote...

This may get me in trouble, but I don't care if the majority likes her. I
like that she's smart and competent and that she knows it. She does not
need to compensate for it.

I agree with you here. If more people were to like her, her personality would (unfortunately) have to change, and that's not something I want to see.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:02 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
This may get me in trouble, but I don't care if the majority likes her. I like that she's smart and competent and that she knows it. She does not need to compensate for it.

I care for one reason only: if more people like her, then she's more likely - even if it's only a little more - to get more content in ME3. Otherwise, I couldn't care less. Let's hope that LotSB was the only attempt in that direction. As everyone knows, I hate her infertility, but at least it doesn't change her personality.

@tommy_t:
Actually, I do want to see more skin - in the romance scenes It's annoying that they made that oversexualized outfit for her, and then buckled to Fox News (damn them to hell!) and made a sex scene where nobody took their clothes off. ***nostalgic ME1 reminiscence*** ***goes off to play some ME1***

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:27 .

[tommyt_1994]

Ieldra2 wrote...


@tommy_t:
Actually, I do want to see more skin - in the romance scenes It's annoying that they made that oversexualized outfit for her, and then buckled to Fox News (damn them to hell!) and made a sex scene where nobody took their clothes off. ***nostalgic ME1 reminiscence*** ***goes off to play some ME1***

Same here, regarding the romance scenes. There's a happy medium between awkward(ME2) and full fledged porno. ME1 had that happy medium, and Bioware threw it away due to fox news. I really can't believe how their story recieved any significant attention considering how blatantly false their story was. Let's just be happy the ME2 scenes aren't as bad as the DA:O ones though.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:52 .

[The_Numerator]

Collider wrote...
I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't think anything like that.

Yeah, I'm sorry about that-- Like I said, I just copied and pasted the notes that I'd planned to develop originally. You in particular said quite a bit, and some of your points came across rather subtle. So undeveloped, much of my reply to you wouldn't have made much sense at all. In truth, if I wasn't going to take the time to do it right, I probably shouldn't have bothered posting anything at all. It was just... It was that I didn't want to let the backlog of posts to go through get even larger.

I'd forgot about the holiday, too. If I'd remembered, I wouldn't have felt so rushed, and might have been more sensible and put it off 'till now. Anyway... I'll take some time now to go through things slow and proper-like now.

Modifié par The_Numerator, 11 novembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Ieldra]

Since the OP remains largely unread and nobody voiced any objections to my re-posting the "Miranda Manifesto", here is it, for those lurkers who never read the OP and everyone else who might care. I wrote this about 9 months ago. It's unedited, just as the words wanted to flow. I never wanted to iron out any remaining awkwardness. Reading it again these days, I can only say I wouldn't change a word.

Miranda – an attempt at capturing her essence
aka "The Miranda Manifesto"
by Ieldra2

She turned out to be the most interesting, the most fascinating woman I have ever encountered in a game on electronic media: Miranda Lawson, black-ops agent, genetically optimized superwoman, renegade daughter with a conflicted childhood, with the figure of a femme fatale and the heart of a warrior, a cool demeanor and a core of passion, a mind like a double-edged sword and a presence like a blue giant star. A powerful friend and an enemy to be feared, but to those who dare desire her – a dream made flesh. Who else could capture the heart of a larger-than-life hero? Where else would he look and not look down? Who else could walk beside him on this path and not be burned to ashes? Who else but coolly indomitable Miranda, the almost perfect companion, who settles for nothing but the best, because she is one of the best herself?

Introducing Miranda: not a girl

We live in a culture and time where women are regularly designated "girls". This tendency falls flat on its face if applied to Miranda, because for all her physical perfection, apparently the epitome of youthful health and attractiveness, she is definitely not a girl. This is most obvious when comparing her with Tali, who has grown in character and power considerably since we met her first in Mass Effect 1, but retains a certain coy girlishness (which presents an attraction all of its own, but that’s another topic). Miranda has none of that. She is a woman not with charm but with presence, seems almost at the height of her personal power. Nonetheless, she also is no femme fatale, in spite of her physical attractiveness. There can be no doubt that she has the ability for such a role, but so far it seems she prefers to be less deceptive. If her most open moments are not a deception, then she is as she seems: a powerful woman with a stunning presence, tempered by personal conflict, dedicated to a cause she believes in, and a tendency for blunt honesty and open confrontation. As far as I'm concerned: a woman to be admired. In Latin: Miranda.

Deciphering Miranda: no mere beauty

Let’s face it – or, as Miranda has put it: why hide from it? – great beauty and attractiveness are never "mere". There is something dishonest in our culture’s tendency to play down the importance of the physical while dancing around it like around the proverbial golden calf. Great beauty and attractiveness may cause happiness or tragedy, they may give you power or turn you into a victim, but they are always remarkable and always influence how others perceive you. Whichever it turns out to be: the physical is as much part of your person as less tangible attributes.
Miranda fully appreciates this, she fully appreciates her own physical superiority, while having not a single bit of vanity because of it. All the while, her attractiveness goes beyond the "mere" physical. Her presence is the result of a great figure, an interesting face, the physical grace resulting from her combat training, and the confidence she gains from her competence, all combined. If she were not beautiful, her relationship with Shepard would be very different. The story setup would be about seeing the extraordinary personality hiding behind the unremarkable or even the ugly. As it is, their story is a very different one: one of two people who both, in their different kind, may represent the best or the worst their species has to offer the galaxy, and who will decide which it is to be by the way they come together, or not.

Enhancing Miranda: no mere genetics

A much overlooked aspect of what makes Miranda fascinating is her heritage. Yes, everyone knows she's genetically engineered, but I suspect few appreciate it. We're so conditioned to see its problems that we tend to overlook that whatever the intent and the methods of her creation may have been, she really *is* enhanced, and may just represent the future of humanity. We're never exactly told what is enhanced apart from her looks and her longevity, but I take it for granted that enhanced mental acuity as well as enhanced physical reflexes and senses are a part of the package. We have seen so many disastrous results of genetic experiments, particularly by Cerberus. Miranda represents the other extreme: because her father wanted a dynasty – I take that to mean he wanted his daughter(s) to inherit his "business empire" – she has nothing like the control chip she’d wanted to implant in Shepard, nothing making her essentially less human. No, she only got the good parts. All the while genes only provide potential, which must still be realized. No mere genetics can substitute for learning and training, only let you have an easier time doing that. Miranda may have extraordinary potential, but her father also wanted extraordinary results. So, even apart of the emotional deprivation she may have experienced, in a way she had to work just as hard as anyone else; which, among other things, makes her as human as anyone else - only better.

Romancing Miranda: not about need

Romancing Miranda tells us about a kind of love that is not about need. Miranda is confident and powerful. There is a core of emotional vulnerability, centered on her perception of herself as "only a tool", but that only makes her more human, not less confident in what she does. You get the impression that, given time, she'd come to terms with it on her own. As she herself tells Shepard, she doesn't need a friend. As she herself admits some time later, she wants one, she also wants a lover, nonetheless. But she settles for none but the best. So she is the type of woman even Shepard, larger-than-life hero that he is, must make an effort to be worthy of. Miranda will never be taken for granted. She doesn't fall into his lap. As a rule, she doesn't cry on his shoulders even while appreciating that she could if she needed to. Because in her own way, she's larger than life herself, as Shepard's equal an almost perfect companion. By challenging him she will bring out the best in him, as he will do with her, and together they will make a total greater than the sum of its parts.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2010 - 09:05 .

[Ieldra]

And here the list of fanfic featuring Miranda, reposted from the OP:

Fan fiction featuring Miranda

"Immortality" by Ronnie James Dio.
"Operation Forseti" by Cpt.ShaneShofield
"Veteran of the Psychic Wars" by xahra99, featuring Miranda/Jacob.
"Exitus" Chapter 12: Every Detail by sinvraal
"Be All Our Sins Rembered" by jtav
"Let You Go" by jtav, featuring Miranda/Liara.
"Atlas" by Witness Gaxkang
"Fight for the Lost" by LuxDragon
"An Old Friend" by Rathias0114 &amp; MegWithAMouth
"Test of Loyalty" by Rathias0114 &amp; MegWithAMouth
"Reflections" by Jediknight120
"Ghosts of Elysium" by DarthReavus
"A Promise of Love and Death" by Ieldra2
"Mass Effect Foundation" by Breakdown Boy
"Rebirth" by fongiel24.
"Gravity" by Ryan Priessman.
"Promethean Legacy" by Ieldra2.
"Vulnerable" by jtav.
"Persistence of Memory" by jtav, featuring Miranda/Liara.
"Masks and Mirrors" by Ieldra2
"Recruitment Mission: Kaidan vs. Miranda" by Dinah Lance
"Friendly Rivals: Liara and Miranda" by Dinah Lance
"Three Steps Forward" by Thessilian
"Degrees of Inheritance" by Elyvern

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2010 - 08:48 .

[Collider]

Yeah, I'm sorry about that-- Like I said, I just copied and pasted the notes that I'd planned to develop originally. You in particular said quite a bit, and some of your points came across rather subtle. So undeveloped, much of my reply to you wouldn't have made much sense at all. In truth, if I wasn't going to take the time to do it right, I probably shouldn't have bothered posting anything at all. It was just... It was that I didn't want to let the backlog of posts to go through get even larger.



I'd forgot about the holiday, too. If I'd remembered, I wouldn't have felt so rushed, and might have been more sensible and put it off 'till now. Anyway... I'll take some time now to go through things slow and proper-like now.

Hey, no problem. You don't need to apologize No worries.

[jtav]

Question: how secretive would Miranda be about her origins? If she were directly asked if her father had artificially created her and had her genetically modified, would she lie?

[Collider]

jtav wrote...

Question: how secretive would Miranda be about her origins? If she were directly asked if her father had artificially created her and had her genetically modified, would she lie?

If she was asked then I'd expect her to be suspicious. Could be an agent from her father.

But in general, about secrecy to her origins? She did tell Shepard pretty quickly.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Question: how secretive would Miranda be about her origins? If she were directly asked if her father had artificially created her and had her genetically modified, would she lie?

It depends on who's asking and on the circumstances. But the better question is: why would anyone ask her that who didn't already suspect? Any why would anyone suspect in the first place? 

[Elyvern]

Just thought of something. Looking through the thread about who should/shouldn't be LIs, a couple of people mention that they found it very uncomfortable that Miranda was primarily responsible for bringing Shepard back to life, and because of that there may be a pygmalion complex involved. On the other end, someone expresed a sense of frankensteinian distaste in that Shepard was pretty much blood and tubes to her for most of 2 years and that was a creepy basis for a relationship. What do you guys think?

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It depends on who's asking and on the circumstances. But the better question is: why would anyone ask her that who didn't already suspect? Any why would anyone suspect in the first place? 

Liara is reading some documents from scientists attempting to adapt the technology that created her. They mentioned several flawed  "prototypes" including one that initially appeared perfect but was diagnosed as a clinical sociopath at the age of sixteen and who also had a genetic quirk that left her at higher risk for premature ovarian failure. Liara remembers Miranda's reaction to to the story she told and puts two and two together.

[jtav]

Elyvern wrote...

Just thought of something. Looking through the thread about who should/shouldn't be LIs, a couple of people mention that they found it very uncomfortable that Miranda was primarily responsible for bringing Shepard back to life, and because of that there may be a pygmalion complex involved. On the other end, someone expresed a sense of frankensteinian distaste in that Shepard was pretty much blood and tubes to her for most of 2 years and that was a creepy basis for a relationship. What do you guys think?

That angle has occurred to me. I think a sort of Frankenstein/Creature relationship would have been more interesting than what we got. I don't think about it too much because beginning doesn't address it at all. Certainly, I've written her filling a quasi-parental role instead of as a lover.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
It depends on who's asking and on the circumstances. But the better question is: why would anyone ask her that who didn't already suspect? Any why would anyone suspect in the first place? 

Liara is reading some documents from scientists attempting to adapt the technology that created her. They mentioned several flawed  "prototypes" including one that initially appeared perfect but was diagnosed as a clinical sociopath at the age of sixteen and who also had a genetic quirk that left her at higher risk for premature ovarian failure. Liara remembers Miranda's reaction to to the story she told and puts two and two together.

Considering the background of your story, I'd say Miranda is not exactly secretive about it, but still very reluctant to tell Liara. She'll eventually do it, though. 

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Just thought of something. Looking through the thread about who should/shouldn't be LIs, a couple of people mention that they found it very uncomfortable that Miranda was primarily responsible for bringing Shepard back to life, and because of that there may be a pygmalion complex involved. On the other end, someone expresed a sense of frankensteinian distaste in that Shepard was pretty much blood and tubes to her for most of 2 years and that was a creepy basis for a relationship. What do you guys think?

I see that aspect as part of Miranda's initial determination to stay professionally distant with Shepard. I don't think it's that important, though. I don't find it creepy in the least.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[Elyvern]

I don't find it creepy either, but I must admit to being quite intrigued by what she would be thinking. I can entirely buy it as the reason for her wanting to stay professionally distant with Shepard, but after that? Does it come into play at all with her falling for him romantically? After all, she seems to be processing the entire thing rationally like a scientist (the bunch of hormones speech comes to mind).

I keep feeling it's more important than what it seems to be, because in the renegade scene with the kiss, she kept referring to him in clinical terms like "bloody perfect human specimen". I can't put my finger on it, but there seems to be alot of significance to that apart from the fact that it makes her attraction to Shepard sound really like she's shopping for a mate in terms of pedigree or biological superiority.

[The_Numerator]

Elyvern wrote...

Just thought of something. Looking through the thread about who should/shouldn't be LIs, a couple of people mention that they found it very uncomfortable that Miranda was primarily responsible for bringing Shepard back to life, and because of that there may be a pygmalion complex involved. On the other end, someone expresed a sense of frankensteinian distaste in that Shepard was pretty much blood and tubes to her for most of 2 years and that was a creepy basis for a relationship. What do you guys think?

In what direction is this pygmalion complex supposed be going?

I mean, what is the nature of the proposed problem? That Miranda is supposed to fall in love with her "creation", or that Shepard falling in love with his "creator" raises questions about the source of his feelings; that his affections arise more from a feeling of "indebtedness", than from love?