15168 réponses à ce sujet

[t3HPrO]

I feel that C-Sec and Spectres are under orders to arrest any member of Cerberus on sight, given that Cerberus is an enemy of the Council. However, Shep would most likely twist it around so that nobody gets arrested.

[enayasoul]

t3HPrO wrote...

I feel that C-Sec and Spectres are under orders to arrest any member of Cerberus on sight, given that Cerberus is an enemy of the Council. However, Shep would most likely twist it around so that nobody gets arrested.

It's kind of funny they didn't in the game... My male shep was walking around with a known Cerberus Operative, Miranda.  She was even with me at the Counsel hearing and spoke her mind....  

Modifié par enayasoul, 17 novembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[jlb524]

They also wear the Cerberus logo proudly on their outfits (Miranda and Jacob) and no one seems to react to that.

[jtav]

There's a reason she never wears her uniform in my fics. In my head, she wears her Redemption casual outfit or body armor, as appropriate.



I'm thinking about doing a short friendship fic with these two since I don't have time to complete the next chapter of Persistence before I get my assignment. I'm having to work very hard not to turn it into a slashfic. I really love this Shepard. *hell freezes over*

[jlb524]

Miranda's Redemption outfit is basically the same as her ME2 one, minus the logo XD



Also, a Miranda/Shepard friendship story should be interesting. Your Sheaprd, jtav, seems very much like Miranda, and I feel they would have a lot in common.

[jtav]

The casual outfit, with t he white jacket and grey shirt. She wears it when she takes Liara to meet TIM.



They do. They also have a certain amount of chemistry I'm trying to resist.

[t3HPrO]

@ jtav

If youre trying resist it, don't bother trying to. Chances are it'll end up really awkward, or worse, in an epic fail.



When I saw Miranda, Jacob and the Normandy complete with Cerberus logos everywhere, I was half expecting an ad going: Cerberus-Just Do It! Or "Im lovin' Cerberus!"

[Elyvern]

Just thought of a new topic. Basically, I'd like to ask two questions:

1. How much does Miranda's status as a Cerberus agent and as a woman on the run from her father influence her tendencies to kill and to commit text-book definitions of criminal acts and felony?

2. Would she ever be able to integrate herself wholeheartedly into regular human society, subject herself to human legal systems, and be able to reconcile herself to accept them and live by them?

What do I mean by that?

Essentially, she leads a double life, and it's a life that constantly requires her to be on her guard, to hide her tracks. She's on the run from her father's agents, she uses an alias that she probably thinks is more her real self than her original name. she's part of a supremacist group that's been labelled a terrorist organisation. The constant understanding that she cannot afford to let herself fall into any legal traps or physical ambush because it could effectively end her life and freedom would probably be always on her mind.

She's unlikely to find or seek any sort of solution within a traditional justice system, and she's not governed by such a system either. Laws and regulations for the sake of themselves, she'd probably scoff at, and if she follows any principles, it would be along the lines of expediency, finnese, avoidance of excess because it's senseless and pointless, as well as the very basic guidelines of her own moral compass.

With that framework in mind, execution without the benefit of a trial, or eventual execution after interrogation and torture sessions would be very familar to her, likewise she'd be less inhibited at the notion of sabotage, of causing collateral damage, of killing innocent lives if she cannot help it. How much of what she does: ie. killing Wilson without giving him the benefit to explain himself, killing Niket because he betrayed her again and when he is unarmed and a civilian, is purely the effect of her moral compass guiding her, and how much of it has to do with the lack of a legal system in the world she moves in and her perpetual immersion in such a world where such things are natural and taken for granted?

Given that she quits Cerberus and eventually finds herself returning to civilised social and legal systems, how much of that change would reflect on her behaviour? Would she still be so willing to kill? If she did, would she feel compelled to hide those acts? Would she consider trusting the legal system? We know that she's generally cynical of galactic society and believes many things don't change, that it's not within their nature to change or the inertia is just too strong. I suspect that part of her personality is one of the reasons why she could slip in and operate so smoothly within an outlaw network. So can she return to the fold again? Considering she has been out of it for so long (since she ran away from her father), or we can even say she has never been subjected to normal rules that regular people have.

Modifié par Elyvern, 17 novembre 2010 - 07:58 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Quick question: could Miranda technically be charged with treason for her Cerberus affiliation? I'm aware it would never happen. Shepard's just musing on the irony of working for Cerberus.

It depends how Miranda fits into Cerberus' structure. IMO, TIM has had his own thing going for quite some time, and it's never become clear if Miranda was part of "Cerberus - the Alliance black ops agency" or "Cerberus - TIM's private project to advance humanity". In my fanfics I've assumed the latter for convenience's sake, to give Cerberus an anti-Alliance aspect back in 2166. In that case, Miranda couldn't be charged for treason because she never formally worked for the Alliance. Charging her for her Cerberus affiliation would then depend on specifics of the law, particularly if the mere membership in a terrorist organization is a criminal offense.

Technically....

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm thinking about doing a short friendship fic with these two since I don't have time to complete the next chapter of Persistence before I get my assignment. I'm having to work very hard not to turn it into a slashfic. I really love this Shepard. *hell freezes over*

LOL. It's certainly odd reading such a statement from you. Resist the "chemistry", please. I'm so much looking forward to a Miranda/femShep friendship story.
 

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
1. How much does Miranda's status as a Cerberus agent and as a woman on the run from her father influence her tendencies to kill and to commit text-book definitions of criminal acts and felony?

2. Would she ever be able to integrate herself wholeheartedly into regular human society, subject herself to human legal systems, and be able to reconcile herself to accept them and live by them?

I'm getting the distinct impression that a refusal to be (mentally) bound by law is more than a matter of personal history and necessity, but a part of her personality. IMO, it may have started as an attitude "the law doesn't protect me, so I don't feel bound by it", but that was an expression of her rather than something she turned into. I think she always had the tendency to consider all options, legal or illegal, with no preference for one side except for the inconvenience that breaking of the law inevitably results in.

So, her being a Cerberus operative and on the run from her father do influence the ease with which she can bring herself to do things that she would otherwise find *morally* repulsive, but it has not had much influence on her ability to "commit crimes by textbook definitions" because text-book definitions don't matter to her.

As for question 2, the more interesting question is: would she be *willing* to integrate herself wholeheartedly into regular human society, subject herself to human legal systems etc.. In my estimation the answer can only be a resounding "no". If she integrates herself, it will always be a mask hiding her true self. She may even consider it convenient to live by the rules of regular human society, but in her heart she will never respect them all that much, and will turn to do what she considers the best path of actions, regardless of law, if it seems worth the risk.

I have more thoughts about this but they'll have to wait until I have sorted them out.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
1. How much does Miranda's status as a Cerberus agent and as a woman on the run from her father influence her tendencies to kill and to commit text-book definitions of criminal acts and felony?

2. Would she ever be able to integrate herself wholeheartedly into regular human society, subject herself to human legal systems, and be able to reconcile herself to accept them and live by them?

I'm getting the distinct impression that a refusal to be (mentally) bound by law is more than a matter of personal history and necessity, but a part of her personality. IMO, it may have started as an attitude "the law doesn't protect me, so I don't feel bound by it", but that was an expression of her rather than something she turned into. I think she always had the tendency to consider all options, legal or illegal, with no preference for one side except for the inconvenience that breaking of the law inevitably results in.

So, her being a Cerberus operative and on the run from her father do influence the ease with which she can bring herself to do things that she would otherwise find *morally* repulsive, but it has not had much influence on her ability to "commit crimes by textbook definitions" because text-book definitions don't matter to her.

This is the part where I actually have alot of reservations on. Mainly because throughout the game, she does show a strict adherance to rules, the few times she actively goes against them is during Jacob's LM where TIM seems to imply that slipping in the information was strictly prohibited, and naturally, when she defies TIM during the paragon CB decision. We can probably say quite a bit about these two incidents in terms of their similarities and comparisons of her motivations when making them. But I'll leave it for now.

Still, she does seem to take the chain of command seriously, accepting Shepard's decisions even though they may be distasteful to her. Of course, we have to wonder how much of it is her really accepting the chain of command and how much of it was her following the charge that she has to make sure Shepard succeeds, and thus she puts aside all her reservations about being subjected to such a system. But the feeling I get is, yes, she believes in it. In her situation, she would need to lead and set by example, in obeying Shepard, she can then expect to be obeyed by subordinates in return.

For example, I think Jack grates her most strongly for breaking that rule, and not so much that Jack is anti-Cerberus. But it also seems like she places value in such a system because she expects the upholder of that system, and the person upon which the system hinges on (Shepard) be worthy and impartial enough to give it real credence. This brings me back to her reaction if Shepard sides (and I feel unjustly) with Jack in their conflict scene. Here, I'd like to give another spin to her chilling "not even remotely" line. Do you get the distinct impression that it wasn't so much a personal rebuff that she was feeling, but more like something she accepted as a constant getting knocked off the pedestal? To be more specific, it's like she became profesionally disappointed in Shepard, and loses faith in the entire chain of command there? And if Shepard uses the renegade or paragon approach to reassure her, the speed which she bounces back feels like she was eager for that explanation to be exactly the reason for Shepard's erratic behaviour-- which makes her happy that she hadn't place her faith in the wrong person. How does that gel with other command decisions where Shepard overrides her suggestions?

1. Veetor
2. Releasing Grunt
3. Activating Legion
4. Giving Jack the Cerberus files

In every case, she could probably see where Shepard is coming from, even if she doesn't neccessarily agree with the decision. But in the case of the conflict scene, her personal and professional integrity was called into question. Personally, I think the worst line if Shepard sides with Jack is saying "Jack is fine. It's you who should rethink your attitude", and this comes after she says Jack will jeopardise the mission. So essentially, she's lost faith in Shepard's judgement and then it all falls apart. It's similar to the way her adherance to Cerberus hinges on believing in one person upon which everything lies. 

I won't say too much as to the merits and pitfalls of such a belief system except to say everyone is inherently flawed and she should know that one day, anyone she puts so much faith on will fail her not neccessarily because of a case of blinkered vision, but also from differing mindsets, different moral values and different goals. In that sense, I would actually think she is quite idealistic, although it's a qualified idealism--in that as long as she believes in the integrity of the person in charge, she is quite happy to subject herself to a behavioural system and follow the rules. And I think she likes that, I really feel that inherently, she is very much for the notion of law and order. And setting aside her distaste and cynicism about the stupidities and inertia that a social or legal system of behaviour entails, her tendency is to follow if there is nothing else influencing her against it, or need prompting her to defy the system. All the things I mentioned above like expedience and finesse will probably play a part as well.

As for question 2, the more interesting question is: would she be *willing* to integrate herself wholeheartedly into regular human society, subject herself to human legal systems etc.. In my estimation the answer can only be a resounding "no". If she integrates herself, it will always be a mask hiding her true self. She may even consider it convenient to live by the rules of regular human society, but in her heart she will never respect them all that much, and will turn to do what she considers the best path of actions, regardless of law, if it seems worth the risk.

I have more thoughts about this but they'll have to wait until I have sorted them out.

This one I'm more in line with your thoughts. One of the reasons why I ask is because it is explored in my fic where she now has a proper alliance ID and is seen by many as a hero (which makes her feel queasy). I doubt any elevated status has much influence on her behaviour. Shepard is afterall the obligated poster child for humanity, not her. But then again, tending to my belief that she has tendencies to want a sense of order, she may be able to deceive herself into thinking that she can believe in the general social and legal system, and she'll try and work entirely within it until something comes along to prove differently. The shock will not be great as she'd always known. Thus, it would be on a case-by-case basis. Yes on this, no on that. And like you said, if the need is great, she will do what she considers as the best.

[Ieldra]

Perhaps I should qualify:

I think that Miranda appreciates order, but law only insofar as it creates an order she agrees with or one she considers necessary. She'll never respect the law because it's the law, but only because, and if, she considers it useful or necessary. In her own value system, "obey the law" as such is a minor consideration at best, and never a commandment.

I think this is an almost inevitable consequence of being smarter than most other people combined with her upbringing. The fact that the law didn't help her when she might have needed it reinforces that tendency.

On a warship like the Normandy, especially on a mission, a chain of command is a necessity. Since Miranda believes in the mission, she has no problem with it in principle, but her early reservations about Shepard make her implicitly challenge his authority. Thus, the conversation on Minuteman station. Later she respects Shepard and has no more such reservations. The chain of command is a means to an end, never a way of life. Also look what she did when she gave Jacob the information about the Hugo Gernsback. That was a violation of security procedures if we can believe TIM.

This is why I think she will always consider legal and illegal options with no a priori preference. She'll take the risks and other consequences into account, but she'll never rule out any option just because it's illegal, and she'll take that attitude with her wherever she'll go.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2010 - 02:53 .

[Ieldra]

Too much text on this page....

[Errol Dnamyx]

Too bad Shepard doesn't have any alliance blues to wear anymore They looked much better than anything he gets to wear in ME2.

[Ieldra]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...
Too bad Shepard doesn't have any alliance blues to wear anymore They looked much better than anything he gets to wear in ME2.

Any more? IIRC he always wears armor in ME1, and that didn't look that good. I prefer his ME2 outfits. The one you get from Kasumi complements MIranda's black one nicely.

[jtav]

S/he wears the same outfit as Ash and Kaidan on board the Normandy.

[jtav]

Chapter three of Persistence of Memory is up.

Summary: Liara has information critical to restoring Shepard. Miranda will do anything to get it. She'll even teach Liara how not to get killed. Facing her own past-and her attraction to Liara-was never part of the bargain.

Modifié par jtav, 17 novembre 2010 - 07:38 .

[Ieldra]

Thanks, jtav. Miranda is perfect in that chapter, and I share her fury about the prothean fairy tale - everywhere the same stuff, even in cultures 50K years in the past. It's infuriating, even though not really surprising. I wonder what will happen when Liara finds out. I'll review once the story has settled a bit.

[Ryzaki]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...
Too bad Shepard doesn't have any alliance blues to wear anymore They looked much better than anything he gets to wear in ME2.

If you're playing ME2 on the PC there's a mod that'll give you the blue outfit along with a bunch of other outfits.

I had to use it because everything being either Cerbeus themed (blegh) or looking like Shep belongs in a gang (the sweater...outfit...thing) or a suit I couldn't take it anymore!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:12 .

[Ieldra]

As we're speaking of outfits - are there any mods changing Miranda's outfits? I know of the bordeaux-colored original outfit (nice, but gets old after a while) and of the Cerberus armor reskin (I hate that). Any others?

[Prudii Aden]

I'm sure you know about the one that has her with a tatoo on her lower back, or is that the bordeaux coloured one?

[Ieldra]

Prudii Aden wrote...
I'm sure you know about the one that has her with a tatoo on her lower back, or is that the bordeaux coloured one?

Oh....yeah...that one. That.....doesn't count. Insulting mods don't count. Not for this woman:

[jtav]

Indeed. She settles for nothing but the best.



I'm back to working on Persistence (femShep story is turning out longer than I thought). I suppose I should warn you that I'll be living up to my reputation as a sadist from here on out.

[Prudii Aden]

Indeed. Whilst I consider it within the realms of possibility for her to get one, but not like that. I can see her getting a temporary tattoo if it was necessary for an assignment, but nothing permanent. Anyway, I'm guessing that if she were to get anything, it'd be something discreet.