@jtav, I just finished your 3rd chapter, wonderful story. WoW Miranda and Liara, I never would have put them together, brilliant....will you be continuing?
Miranda Lawson - our favorite woman in the galaxy (III)
Débuté par
Ieldra
, juin 11 2010 04:30
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#9377
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Posté 20 novembre 2010 - 07:16
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If Miranda's ME3 friendship path is anything akin to that of Ashley in ME1, I will be more than satisfied. If it's as extensive as Liara in LotSB, then I will be ecstatic.
#9379
Posté 20 novembre 2010 - 09:00
Ieldra
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LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
jlb524 wrote...
My worry is that they will do whatever the heck they want with these female characters to make them more palatable to who they perceive as the audience for them (young dudes).
They may think it's a brilliant idea to slowly soften Miranda up to make her more popular as a character and LI (and more folks will like her and praise BW for making 'great' characters, etc.). I'm not sure if they write with the audience in mind, or if they just write what they would think is 'interesting'. I hope it's more of the latter and not the former.
I don't even want to think about my fears on what they could do with Liara's character.
I understand that fear, but I do believe that BioWare value good storytelling over the appeasement of a group of silly teenage dudes who wish to undermine certain characters due to their own projections.
With Miranda, I'm confident that they will not ruin her character, as she's been presented as a pragmatic, competant and somewhat ruthless individual from the start. I believe that they will not Flanderise any softening-up of her character to extreme lengths, and that she will retain the personality traits that we appreciate.
I'm confident regarding Liara to an even greater extent, as it would undermine her character development during ME2 and LotSB, and render it null and void. I think there's little chance of both of them becoming emotionally dependant on Shepard at all.
Nice to hear an optimistic voice. Miranda is the most interesting character I've met in a game in a very long time. A big part of that is her competence, her pragmatism and her relative independence from Shepard, as far as a romance allows such a thing.
A personal remark @all:
I've just had a look at a character description I wrote a few years ago for one of my tabletop RPG characters. I knew she was simliar to Miranda, but the degree of similarity is eerie: Detached to the point of sometimes appearing cold? Check? Values independence (here in a culture that does not value it)? Check. Protective of her sisters? Check. High society background? Check. Pragmatic streak? Check. Her calling involves secret knowledge? Check. She even has almost the same name ("Mirande") and that world's equivalent of superpower potential!!! Practically the only important trait she doesn't share with Miranda is her appearance. Weird...
Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 novembre 2010 - 09:01 .
#9380
Posté 20 novembre 2010 - 09:42
Prudii Aden
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Ieldra - thinking back over some of the female characters my PC's have gone out with in previous tabletop/live RPGs, there are more than a few similarities. Independent? Check. Protective of those close to her? Check. Pragmatic streak? Check. Not ruled by her emotions? Check. Secret knowledge? Check.
I guess it's something all Miranda fans have in common - an appreciation for strong willed/spirited people (or however you wish to phrase it).
I guess it's something all Miranda fans have in common - an appreciation for strong willed/spirited people (or however you wish to phrase it).
#9382
Posté 20 novembre 2010 - 10:46
jlb524
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Ieldra2 wrote...
A personal remark @all:
I've just had a look at a character description I wrote a few years ago for one of my tabletop RPG characters. I knew she was simliar to Miranda, but the degree of similarity is eerie: Detached to the point of sometimes appearing cold? Check? Values independence (here in a culture that does not value it)? Check. Protective of her sisters? Check. High society background? Check. Pragmatic streak? Check. Her calling involves secret knowledge? Check. She even has almost the same name ("Mirande") and that world's equivalent of superpower potential!!! Practically the only important trait she doesn't share with Miranda is her appearance. Weird...
You must really love those type of characters then! I think the name being almost the same (minus only one letter) is the most eerie similarity.
I think it's refreshing and exciting when someone does create a character that kind of possesses all the traits you tend to love in a fictional character. It's usually rare to find a character that matches up so well. It's also understandable to be extremely resistant to any changes to that character that would remove those things you love.
#9383
Posté 20 novembre 2010 - 11:22
jtav
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Here's an unpleasant question, but it goes to how I RP my current Shepard. If Miranda does the barrier, how angry should Shepard be when it fails? How much would Miranda blame herself?
#9384
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Posté 20 novembre 2010 - 11:29
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jtav wrote...
Here's an unpleasant question, but it goes to how I RP my current Shepard. If Miranda does the barrier, how angry should Shepard be when it fails? How much would Miranda blame herself?
Hmmm. Regarding Miranda, I think that she would take full responsibility for the eventual failure of the biotic barrier. I think it has been discussed before that some insecurity is present of her genetic upgrades and augmentations, and that her supposed imperfections result in the death of one of her crewmates. Additionally, it was Miranda who also stated that any biotic could theoretically handle the barrier, and should be able to protect the squad. When she inevitably fails to do so, it would resonate with her pretty hard.
Shepard? It depends upon how the Commander is roleplayed, I guess. Considering the fact that the decision ultimately rests with Shepard, it would be a tad insensitive to fully blame Miranda. It's almost like Shepard is trying to absolve themselves of any guilt.
#9385
Posté 20 novembre 2010 - 11:52
jlb524
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Well, practically, Miranda did succeed in holding the barrier. Herself and Shepard (plus one other squad mate) made it through and were able to then get the doors open so they could continue on to the central chamber. We know there's a better outcome from meta-gaming, but Miranda and co. doesn't.
Now, would Miranda still beat herself up for losing one person when casualties were expected on the mission...I doubt it. Perhaps she would wish she could have done better, but I don't think she'd dwell on it that much.
Now, would Miranda still beat herself up for losing one person when casualties were expected on the mission...I doubt it. Perhaps she would wish she could have done better, but I don't think she'd dwell on it that much.
#9386
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Posté 20 novembre 2010 - 11:59
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But Miranda was unable to maintain the biotic field until the entirety of the squad mere able to safely reach their destination. Considering the fact that the purpose of the barrier was to ensure that the team safely reaches it's next checkpoint, I think that Miranda would feel responsible for the death of one of her crewmates. She may also start questioning herself, such as would she have been able to prevent this person's death if she had persevered for a few more metres.
#9387
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:02
jlb524
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But you know what the optimal result could have been for that mission, while Miranda does not.
Think of it this way, the optimal bad result could have been Miranda losing the bubble half way through, and Shepard, the two squad-mates, and herself all getting carried away by the swarm. What does happen with Miranda is a lot better than that...a lot!
If this happened, the mission would have been a complete failure. It did not...Miranda was still 90% successful in holding the bubble ( I made that number up, btw). I think that's the better way to look at it, than saying Miranda failed b/c one person died. Unless she's a perfectionist.
Think of it this way, the optimal bad result could have been Miranda losing the bubble half way through, and Shepard, the two squad-mates, and herself all getting carried away by the swarm. What does happen with Miranda is a lot better than that...a lot!
If this happened, the mission would have been a complete failure. It did not...Miranda was still 90% successful in holding the bubble ( I made that number up, btw). I think that's the better way to look at it, than saying Miranda failed b/c one person died. Unless she's a perfectionist.
Modifié par jlb524, 21 novembre 2010 - 12:04 .
#9388
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Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:06
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...but it could have been alot better! The assigned task of the biotic specialist was to protect the team, and ensure that all members survive the encounter with the swarm. As one of her fellow crewmates tragically lost their life, she would feel like she has failed that person, especially when considering the fact that she believed that any biotic could handle it.
#9389
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:10
jtav
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I suppose I should mention that Shepard and Miranda are extraordinarily close and the death will be either Kasumi (who Shepard was also close to) or Jacob.
#9390
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:18
jlb524
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LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
...but it could have been alot better! The assigned task of the biotic specialist was to protect the team, and ensure that all members survive the encounter with the swarm. As one of her fellow crewmates tragically lost their life, she would feel like she has failed that person, especially when considering the fact that she believed that any biotic could handle it.
Stop meta-gaming *slap*
Miranda doesn't know that...she doesn't know that Jack or Samara would have been able to complete the task (which Miranda was still able to do) as well as get the entire party through to safety. Especially Jack, when considering Miranda's opinion on her. I'm sure Miranda is aware that Jack is the more powerful biotic, but Miranda might expect Jack to still mess the mission up due to other reasons, like her volatile personality and that she seems to have difficulty controlling her emotions.
#9391
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Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:18
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jtav wrote...
I suppose I should mention that Shepard and Miranda are extraordinarily close and the death will be either Kasumi (who Shepard was also close to) or Jacob.
Ah, I can see where you're going with this. The character who dies will be close to either Shepard or Miranda, and this may create some tension between the pair of them. If Kasumi dies, then Miranda may feel responsible for the death of her beloved friend's close companion.
#9392
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:20
jlb524
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jtav wrote...
I suppose I should mention that Shepard and Miranda are extraordinarily close and the death will be either Kasumi (who Shepard was also close to) or Jacob.
I'm not saying Miranda wouldn't feel saddened by the loss of this crewmate, especially considering that she has platonic feelings for one (Jacob) or Shepard had feelings for the other (Kasumi). I dont' think she'd start to question her competence, though, as she was still successful in completing the mission.
#9393
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Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:29
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jlb524 wrote...
Stop meta-gaming *slap*
Miranda doesn't know that...she doesn't know that Jack or Samara would have been able to complete the task (which Miranda was still able to do) as well as get the entire party through to safety. Especially Jack, when considering Miranda's opinion on her. I'm sure Miranda is aware that Jack is the more powerful biotic, but Miranda might expect Jack to still mess the mission up due to other reasons, like her volatile personality and that she seems to have difficulty controlling her emotions.
That's not meta-gaming!
The assigned task was to ensure that the entirety of the team survived the encounter with the seeker swarms, and to safely escort them through the areas that they are infesting. A person died, when it was Miranda's responsibility to not allow this to happen.
Shepard feels guilty over Ashley or Kaidan's death on Virmire. She mourns the fact that she was forced to leave one of her friends and comrades behind to die, and believes that she made a mistake in allowing this to happen. From a meta perspective, we know that there exists no better solution to resolve the mission. It differs from the biotic escort mission in this regard. However, from an in-universe perspective, Shepard feels that she has made a mistake and is personally responsible for one of her crew sadly meeting their death. You can't accuse me of meta-gaming here, as there is no way to save both Ashley and Kaidan. This mission may have also went horribly wrong, as all of them could have been slaughtered by Saren and his geth.
#9394
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:36
jlb524
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The assigned task was just to get through the corridor to open the door and allow the others to meet up in the central chamber. Ensuring that everyone lived was a bonus. Miranda wouldn't know for sure that Samara or Jack could have done that, plus ensured everyone's safety unless they actually showed her they could have. But, this never happens if Miranda (or Thane/Jacob) was selected. Even if she knows they are more powerful than she is, she couldn't come to the conclusion that they would have been able to hold it long enough to allow all squad mates to survive just based on that.
She may suspect that they could have, but never would know for sure. However, since the task was still completed, I don't see her dwelling much on it.
She may suspect that they could have, but never would know for sure. However, since the task was still completed, I don't see her dwelling much on it.
Modifié par jlb524, 21 novembre 2010 - 12:38 .
#9395
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Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:45
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You're missing my point. I am aware of the fact that Miranda has no way of knowing that Samara or Jack would have been able to maintain the barrier, and ensure the survival of everybody in the party. That's an irrelevance to what I am arguing.
My point is that, regardless of the fact that the results of the mission could have been alot worse, a person still died when it was Miranda's duty to protect and escort them to safety. Discounting the fact that Samara or Jack would have successfully maintained the barrier and avoided any casualties, Miranda would feel that she could have protected her crewmates, and that it was a mistake that she was not able to.
Factor in her insecurity over her genetic augmentation, and what I believe to be her perceived obligation to use her abilities to help others, and I think that she would feel responsible for the tragic death of a crewmate.
My point is that, regardless of the fact that the results of the mission could have been alot worse, a person still died when it was Miranda's duty to protect and escort them to safety. Discounting the fact that Samara or Jack would have successfully maintained the barrier and avoided any casualties, Miranda would feel that she could have protected her crewmates, and that it was a mistake that she was not able to.
Factor in her insecurity over her genetic augmentation, and what I believe to be her perceived obligation to use her abilities to help others, and I think that she would feel responsible for the tragic death of a crewmate.
#9396
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:51
Ryzaki
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Ah yes Miranda's pick me as the biotic specialist.
...Isn't she supposed to be pragmatic? Surely she would've realized both Jack's and Samara's biotic abilities far surpassed hers and would be better suited to holding the bubble.
I really felt that was a stupid call on her part. It was like she just *had* to let Shepard know she could do it to.
The fact that she was wrong is what makes it to me hysterical.
And yes I know she reached the end but I can't help but feel that was game mechanics. If you hadn't gotten that far it would've been an instant game over no?
Besides her task was to get everyone safely over. She failed when someone was taken and she falls to the ground in exhaustion wasting effort getting her to safety that could've been used securing the last person.
...Isn't she supposed to be pragmatic? Surely she would've realized both Jack's and Samara's biotic abilities far surpassed hers and would be better suited to holding the bubble.
I really felt that was a stupid call on her part. It was like she just *had* to let Shepard know she could do it to.
The fact that she was wrong is what makes it to me hysterical.
And yes I know she reached the end but I can't help but feel that was game mechanics. If you hadn't gotten that far it would've been an instant game over no?
Besides her task was to get everyone safely over. She failed when someone was taken and she falls to the ground in exhaustion wasting effort getting her to safety that could've been used securing the last person.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 12:54 .
#9397
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 12:52
jlb524
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I said this:
And I agree that she might feel down b/c someone died...however, she wouldn't consider herself a failure or question her competence as a biotic as the task was still completed.
jlb524 wrote...
I'm not saying Miranda wouldn't feel saddened by the loss of this crewmate, especially considering that she has platonic feelings for one (Jacob) or Shepard had feelings for the other (Kasumi). I dont' think she'd start to question her competence, though, as she was still successful in completing the mission.
And I agree that she might feel down b/c someone died...however, she wouldn't consider herself a failure or question her competence as a biotic as the task was still completed.
#9398
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 01:11
jlb524
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Ryzaki wrote...
Ah yes Miranda's pick me as the biotic specialist.
...Isn't she supposed to be pragmatic? Surely she would've realized both Jack's and Samara's biotic abilities far surpassed hers and would be better suited to holding the bubble.
I really felt that was a stupid call on her part. It was like she just *had* to let Shepard know she could do it to.
The fact that she was wrong is what makes it to me hysterical.
And yes I know she reached the end but I can't help but feel that was game mechanics. If you hadn't gotten that far it would've been an instant game over no?
Besides her task was to get everyone safely over. She failed when someone was taken and she falls to the ground in exhaustion wasting effort getting her to safety that could've been used securing the last person.
I don't think it was a stupid call nor was she trying to prove herself to Shepard. She wasn't wrong, as ulimately, the task was still completed.
Also, Miranda is pragmatic, and since the majority of the team was still able to get through and successfully enable them to continue through the Collector Base, she would feel that this was a success regardless of the one casualty. People die and casualties were expected. She never insisted that Shepard choose her, but merely gave advice that she thought was sound. From a pragmatic standpoint, her advice was sound. She ended up being correct, as any biotic could do it.
For comparison, Shepard's task was just to destroy the Collector base, but not to destroy the Collector base and get everyone safely through...that would be a nice bonus, but not expected.
#9399
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 01:14
Ryzaki
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jlb524 wrote...
I don't think it was a stupid call nor was she trying to prove herself to Shepard. She wasn't wrong, as ulimately, the task was still completed.
Also, Miranda is pragmatic, and since the majority of the team was still able to get through and successfully enable them to continue through the Collector Base, she would feel that this was a success regardless of the one casualty. People die and casualties were expected. She never insisted that Shepard choose her, but merely gave advice that she thought was sound. From a pragmatic standpoint, her advice was sound. She ended up being correct, as any biotic could do it.
For comparison, Shepard's task was just to destroy the Collector base, but not to destroy the Collector base and get everyone safely through...that would be a nice bonus, but not expected.
I do. And the task wasn't completed. Her job was to get everyone over not mostly everyone.
And tha pragmatism is something that would lead me to believe she would've wanted the best person for the job. (Samara because I could see her as seeing Jack as unreliable). I fail to see how the advice "In theory any biotic could do it. I could do it too." is sound when you have a super biotic and Asari Justicar standing right there. It's completely unnecessary advice when Samara has already told you she could do it. I can't help but see that as a "I can do it to!" because that's exactly what she says. "I could do it to." When Shep's practically already at the "okay Samara let's do this." stage.
She ended up being incorrect. She did it but she failed at the task that both Jack and Samara can complete wih not only no casulaties but the elimination of all targets chasing them.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:15 .
#9400
Posté 21 novembre 2010 - 01:43
Xilizhra
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I don't see her recommendation to destroy the base as that bad. It seems to me that she's greatly idealized Cerberus, rationalizing their grievous errors and refusing to believe that TIM had anything to do with major atrocities. She's loyal to Cerberus because she believes that they'll do the things that she wants to do herself; when TIM himself breaks her ideals with wanting to take possession of the Collector base, an action she likely sees as grievous disrespect to its victims and a betrayal of her own ideals, she naturally storms off.
