15168 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

We disagree on the mission parameters. In theory, any biotic could do it. Miranda has no way of knowing what exactly will happen if Samara is picked over herself. Other factors should be taken into consideration as well, besides raw biotic power. Like with Jack...yes, she's more powerful than Miranda, but she's brash and lets her emotions guide her actions. Miranda may also have a problem with Samara's idealistic nature, and her ability to think outside the 'Code'. She may have thought that someone like herself, who was completely focused on the mission and determined to see that it succeeds no matter the cost would be the best choice, in spite of her not being as strong of a biotic as either of them.



Also, don't Samara and Jack 'fail' if they are not loyal?

[enayasoul]

Elyvern wrote...

I'm actually tempted to do a romance between Ashley and Miranda just to see how their conflict will play out in ME3. Fire and ice and all that. There's so much to milk in terms of drama there. I also wonder if I choose not to resolve the conflict between Liara and Miranda in LotSB, will it crop up again in ME3?

I've done exactly this.  Ashley from ME1 and Miranda ME2... I want to see how their conflict will play out as well in ME3.  

I am actually adding that element to my fic as well. Miranda vs Ashley, who is really the best choice for Shepard...considering all we know.  I go with Miranda, that's my personal opinion!


I'll have Ash only in another play through and working on Liara only in another. Just to explore all the female romances I like.   It's so hard not to romance Miranda!!!

I still haven't finished any femshem... but now that I hear Miranda's comment about how she enjoyed working under her command, might make me want to finish that play through.

[pacer90]

I was shocked on my first playthrough when I chose Miranda and Grunt was carried off by the swarms. Tailored biotics, in perfect control of emotions, tactical sense etc and it turns out she was a poor choice.

Modifié par pacer90, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

We disagree on the mission parameters. In theory, any biotic could do it. Miranda has no way of knowing what exactly will happen if Samara is picked over herself. Other factors should be taken into consideration as well, besides raw biotic power. Like with Jack...yes, she's more powerful than Miranda, but she's brash and lets her emotions guide her actions. Miranda may also have a problem with Samara's idealistic nature, and her ability to think outside the 'Code'. She may have thought that someone like herself, who was completely focused on the mission and determined to see that it succeeds no matter the cost would be the best choice, in spite of her not being as strong of a biotic as either of them.

Also, don't Samara and Jack 'fail' if they are not loyal?

Yeah but Miranda fails even if loyal. :innocent:

She knows Samara has more biotic ability, strength and far more experience than she has. (I already said she wouldn't have picked Jack. But Jack wasn't the one offering in the first place Samara was). 

And I see that "thinking only she would suceed because she's focused" (which could not be the case if disloyal) to be arrogance at best and downright recklessness at worst. (She's willing to gamble that Samara an powerful Asari Justicar will fail but she'll magically succeed? Despite having a fraction of Samara's ability and experience?)

She's not the best choice in either circumstance. Miranda of all people should be aware of her limitations and logical enough to see that maybe...just maybe. The woman who came up with the idea, who has been using biotics from before anyone else there was even born. Might just know what she's talking about and have the ability to do it (I mean why suggest it if she couldn't do it?). Miranda lacks Samara's ability and experiene and is fully aware of that fact. Miranda is also aware of how focused Samara can b along with her power. I couldn't help but facepalm at the "I could do it too, in theory any biotic could." reminds me of that kid who's being ignored and jumps up and down for attention. I really felt that was out of character.

Honestly I'd have loved Shep to give Miranda a "Are you serious?" look. Seriously if there was every a time for the Shep ":mellow:" that was it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[enayasoul]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't see her recommendation to destroy the base as that bad. It seems to me that she's greatly idealized Cerberus, rationalizing their grievous errors and refusing to believe that TIM had anything to do with major atrocities. She's loyal to Cerberus because she believes that they'll do the things that she wants to do herself; when TIM himself breaks her ideals with wanting to take possession of the Collector base, an action she likely sees as grievous disrespect to its victims and a betrayal of her own ideals, she naturally storms off.

I agree...! 

I personally do not see her ooc... with replying to tim about if he will replace her next because he's carelessly going to throw away shepard.  I think it fits with who she is to me, anyways.

[enayasoul]

pacer90 wrote...

I was shocked on my first playthrough when I chose Miranda and Grunt was carried off by the swarms. Tailored biotics, in perfect control of emotions, tactical sense etc and it turns out she was a poor choice.

Here's a funny... when Jack ****es about not wanting to follow Miranda's orders as fire team leader. i chose Jack.  haha. Let's see how YOU do Jack!   Boy, Miranda did NOT like that.  She goes, "You've got to be kidding me!"  he he.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah but Miranda fails even if loyal. :innocent:

She knows Samara has more biotic ability, strength and far more experience than she has. (I already said she wouldn't have picked Jack. But Jack wasn't the one offering in the first place Samara was). 

And I see that "thinking only she would suceed because she's focused" (which could not be the case if disloyal) to be arrogance at best and downright recklessness at worst. (She's willing to gamble that Samara an powerful Asari Justicar will fail but she'll magically succeed? Despite having a fraction of Samara's ability and experience?)

She's not the best choice in either circumstance. Miranda of all people should be aware of her limitations and logical enough to see that maybe...just maybe. The woman who came up with the idea, who has been using biotics from before anyone else there was even born. Might just know what she's talking about and have the ability to do it (I mean why suggest it if she couldn't do it?). Miranda lacks Samara's ability and experiene and is fully aware of that fact. Miranda is also aware of how focused Samara can b along with her power. I couldn't help but facepalm at the "I could do it too, in theory any biotic could." reminds me of that kid who's being ignored and jumps up and down for attention. I really felt that was out of character.

Honestly I'd have loved Shep to give Miranda a "Are you serious?" look. Seriously if there was every a time for the Shep ":mellow:" that was it.

Miranda doesn't fail!  This is my point...the mission parameters are still completed.  My point was that Jack and Samara need to be 'loyal' and free of distractions in order to 'succeed' (though, I hate that word) which means other factors beyond raw biotic ability should be taken into account when choosing the person who can hold the bubble.

I never said Miranda thinks she's the only one who can succeed b/c of her focus.  She does say any biotic could do it after all.  My point is that things other than raw biotic power should be considered when making this decision.  While Samara may be more powerful, Miranda may feel she has an edge due to her fierce determination to see the mission through.  You want to say that only biotic power should be considered when making this decision, and that Miranda is reckless or dumb for not suggesting the more powerful biotics.  I disagree with this point.

[jlb524]

Though, I will admit, I picked Samara for the bubble the first time I played the suicide mission b/c she was canonically the strongest biotic on the team. I didn't take any other factors in to consideration b/c by then, I had caught on to the simplistic nature of the decisions on the suicide mission (just pick the most talented without considering personality or other character factors). And of course, that worked out. However, this was the decision made by the player who had caught on to the mechanics of the suicide mission, and not the decision of a fictional character in the story who had no knowledge of this.

[enayasoul]

I did hear Miranda comment to Shepard when the crew started dying off. "We have to keep going no matter how many we lose..." something like that.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Miranda doesn't fail!  This is my point...the mission parameters are still completed.  My point was that Jack and Samara need to be 'loyal' and free of distractions in order to 'succeed' (though, I hate that word) which means other factors beyond raw biotic ability should be taken into account when choosing the person who can hold the bubble.

I never said Miranda thinks she's the only one who can succeed b/c of her focus.  She does say any biotic could do it after all.  My point is that things other than raw biotic power should be considered when making this decision.  While Samara may be more powerful, Miranda may feel she has an edge due to her fierce determination to see the mission through.  You want to say that only biotic power should be considered when making this decision, and that Miranda is reckless or dumb for not suggesting the more powerful biotics.  I disagree with this point.

The mission parameters were to get the whole team safely to the doors. The whole team. Not most of the team, not Shepard, not half of the team. Everyone was supposed to get their safely. She only had to keep three people safe. Three people. She failed. The whole point of her failure in that mission I think was to prove that she wasn't perfect and she makes bad judgements.

As does Miranda. Your point? 

Samara has experience and raw power. It's not an either or situation here. Samara has lived far longer than Miranda has or ever will. Samara knows her strengths and weaknesses as only someone who has used their powers for centuries could. Not to mention she has been using that power for centuries. As for determination...are you seriously saying Samara isn't determined during the end game as much as anyone else to put an end to the collectors?

And yes I see Miranda as being foolish for offering an less experienced and powerful alternative. She's supposed to be an intelligent woman and yet she interjects with a "any biotic could do it?" Really? In particular she mentions herself? That just felt like attention grabbing to me and vastly out of character for Miranda. I could see her doubting Jack's drive and concentration but Samara's? No. I don't see that at all. Miranda seems to have great respect for the Asari as a culture and I have little doubt Samara herself would earn Miranda's respect. Samara herself shows dedication to Shep's cause and great calmness even under the heat of battle. Frankly if I think Mianda would've recommended anyone for the bubble it would've been Samara.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 02:39 .

[jlb524]

Even if the mission parameters were to get the whole team through, how can you say Miranda completely failed just b/c one person didn't make it? And this person wasn't Shepard (who was the most valuable).

Practically, she did succeed, and the Collectors were still destroyed in the end. This couldn't have happened without her.  Even though, b/c of game design, someone else could have done it a bit better, why does it mean she failed completely? What if Miranda was the strongest biotic on the team? What if one death was the optimal outcome based on the game design? Would she have still failed, in your opinion?

Modifié par jlb524, 21 novembre 2010 - 02:39 .

[pacer90]

jlb524 wrote...

Though, I will admit, I picked Samara for the bubble the first time I played the suicide mission b/c she was canonically the strongest biotic on the team. I didn't take any other factors in to consideration b/c by then, I had caught on to the simplistic nature of the decisions on the suicide mission (just pick the most talented without considering personality or other character factors). And of course, that worked out. However, this was the decision made by the player who had caught on to the mechanics of the suicide mission, and not the decision of a fictional character in the story who had no knowledge of this.

I didn't catch on, I assumed that there were going to be a number of factors including who else you had doing what. How very wrong I was. Lot of people died on my first playthrough ><

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Even if the mission parameters were to get the whole team through, how can you say Miranda completely failed just b/c one person didn't make it? And this person wasn't Shepard (who was the most valuable).

Practically, she did succeed, and the Collectors were still destroyed in the end. This couldn't have happened without her.  Even though, b/c of game design, someone else could have done it a bit better, why does it mean she failed completely? What if Miranda was the strongest biotic on the team? What if one death was the optimal outcome based on the game design? Would she have still failed?

The mission was to get the whole team across. IF you get half the team across you failed. Maybe not completely (You didn't get a wholewipe out after all!) but you failed that person who died. You failed to keep them safe. In holding that bubble she in essence was telling everyone in that bubble that she had their backs. But someone died because she failed to hold the shield.

Uh...you forget the part where she goes "Any biotic?" Jacob can do the exact same thing she can and Samara and Jack do it better.

Miranda isn't the strongest biotic however. That's the whole point. If she was her interjection would've made sense.

It wasn't because of just game design. Look at who she is saying she can do it better than:

1. An asari Justicar who has lived far longer than her and has more advaced biotics along with the experience and wisdom to use them.

2. A human experimented on and tortured to be the best human biotic possible and honed those skills through battle.

Why would someone dying be an optimal outcome? 

And yes I think she still would've failed if not game design. Only difference is that she would've failed a lot earlier and Shep would've died too.

[jlb524]

The mission was not about getting everyone out alive. The mission was just to destroy the Collector base...that's it. Even if Shepard died plus the entire crew, the mission would have been a success if the base was still destroyed.



About the strongest biotic, I brought up other factors that might influence that decision on why just going on pure biotic strength might not be the best deciding factor. Who cares if you are the strongest biotic if you aren't mentally prepared for the task?



From a meta-gaming perspective, someone dying is not the optimal outcome, but in the game, Miranda does not know the differences between choosing her or Jacob over choosing Jack or Samara. They are going into an unknown. For all she knows, no biotic could have completed it There could have been a delay that prevented this. They could have been swarmed by too many Collectors such that no one would have been able to handle it, regardless of their biotic power.



I disagree with the notion that Miranda failed when the justifications used are purely from a meta-gaming standpoint.

[Ryzaki]

I'm talking about the biotic bubble part of the mission. It was to escort a short 3 man crew. Miranda was not necessary for that. The person was to hold the bubble until they safely reached their destination. That was the mission. (For that segement.)

And once again show me how Samara is less mentally prepared than Miranda? I'd argue Samara was more mentally prepared *than* Miranda.

Even without metagaming (which ironically I was not using) due to strength, endurance and experience alone one would go with Samara over Miranda. The first time I picked the choice I went with Miranda (I was ging to go with Samara initally but Miranda's "ooh ooh pick me!" grabbed my attention.) I lol'd at her failure before reloading and picking the loyal Samara I was originally going with.

Gah. Honestly that was one of Miranda's worst moments in the game for me.

And if they were swarmed they would've been swarmed regardless of MIranda holding the bubble or not so it doesn't even matter. (And actually they were swarmed. Shep and his two companions just dealt with it). [Also too many collectors for Shep Sue to handle? Pfft]

At the end scene where they're almost at the door they're beng swarmed and only Jack/Samara flings a very powerful Biotic pulse and destroys all the enemies. Miranda on the the other hand collaspes in exhaustion (Huh. Probably due to her unlike Samara and Jack not relying on her biotics as much and having less experiene with the toll they can have on her!) and has to have Shepard help her up while another companion is dragged of to their death.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 03:04 .

[jlb524]

Exactly...they would be swarmed regardless of biotic strength. They could have been swarmed even more, in a way that it would prevent them from ever completing that segment. Beforehand, no one knows what will happen.



The biotic part of the mission was just a subset of the main mission. The goal of the main mission was to destroy the Collectors no matter what the cost. It's like you are saying casualties are OK on any other part of the mission, but OMG NO ONE CAN DIE DURING THE BIOTIC BUBBLE PART. Why is that so special?



Miranda is capable of getting the team (minus one) through that so they can complete the mission.



Samara does seem to be the best choice given her biotic prowess, but I still argue that there should be other factors to take into consideration. I've also explained that Samara might be less motivated or driven (compared to Miranda) in desire to complete the mission.

[Ryzaki]

*sighs* How is Samara less driven than Miranda? Just...how? And if you bring up disloyal Samara there should be a direct comparison to a disloyal Miranda

And if they would've been swarmed regardless Miranda is certainly not the best option in any case so her offering is moot anyways.

When did I say casualties were A-OK? Where are you getting that from? I'd appreciate it if you didn't have to resort to putting words in my mouth to support your argument. I'd consider it a failure on Shep's part if the tech died in the vents, on the fire squad leader's for not giving the tech enough cover if they were shot while escaping, and the tech's fault for not being fast enough to hack the computer (or given who it is Shep's fault for choosing someone who didn't have tech as a specialty). Any casualties on HTL could be blamed on anyone actually there or Shepard if he let enough people die through negilience or bad decisions.

As is any other biotic while both Jack/Samara can get everyone there safely as well as destroy all the enemies outside the door. (You know the ones that later try to break in resulting in less foes for the guys that hold the line?) So instead of being swarmed on two sides they're swarmed on one.

You said no metagaming. Without metagaming you have no guarantee that the door you just closed will stay shut for long. And swarms of enemies on both sides would be bad.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[jlb524]

Miranda has a personal stake in the mission succeeding. The Lazarus project and defeating the Collectors is her baby. Knowing Miranda, she's driven to see that the tasks assigned to her get completed. She's worked on this project for two years and then some. She's toiled long and hard, working inhumane hours to ensure that Shepard is resurrected and that the Collectors are destroyed. It's not Samara's baby...she's along for the ride. You can't say the same about her.



About casualties...you seem to want to say they are OK on the mission as a whole, but not OK on that one part of it. The mission would still have been a success if everyone including Shepard had died as long as the Collector base was destroyed. It doesn't matter who dies or how many, as long as that base goes down. That is the one purpose of the mission. You seem to disagree with this....or not...I'm not sure.

[Ryzaki]

Samara is a Justicar sworn to protect the innocent on an ancient code that she has followed for decades if not centuries. This code compels her to do whatever she can to protect innocents no matter what personal losses it has on her. She has followed this code to the letter and has sworn herself into Shepard's service so that this mission wouldn't be conflicted by the code because she feels that strongly about it. A vow that if you question the Asari about is not made lightly.

...So how is she just along for the ride again? Her very code compels her to protect the innocents being harmed by the Collectors. She tells you this herself.

When did I say that? Read my post above I said no casulties were acceptable so please. Once again. Stop putting words in my mouth. The purpose of going to the CB was to destroy it and stop the Collectors. True if Shep dies destroying the base the mission is successful. The purpose of the BB segment (which once again Miranda was not necessary for) was to escort Shepard with 2 other companions safely to the door while the second team distracted the Collectors to take fire off of them.) Miranda volunteers for the BB (Saying "any biotic could do this and specificing herself right after Samara offers to do it and explains how it can be done). This wasn't simply to escort Shepard to the door. Or to make it to the door. But to get everyone safely to the door.

The mission is a success as long as the CB is destroyed. Yes we agree. The BB part of the mission is complete success as long as everyone is safely escorted. That doesn't happen. Miranda failed whoever was taken by the seeker swarms. They didn't die due to negligence or bad luck. They died due to her failure to hold the bubble.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 03:30 .

[jlb524]

Samara's stake in the mission is still idealistic and not personal. Perhaps 'going along for the ride' was a poor choice in words, but I still contend that Miranda had a deeper and more personal stake in the mission succeeding.



Miranda holding the bubble still enables the mission (destroying the base) to succeed. I'm not sure why you are so hung up on the fact that one person dies during it. You are trying to say that as long as the base is destroyed, no matter the casualties, the mission was a success. But, then you try to say that Miranda failed on one part b/c someone died, even though the mission was still able to continue on and be a success with her help. Why is it that the success of one subset of the SM is hinging on how many people survive when the success of the entire mission does not? That makes no sense.

[Ryzaki]

Everyone there has a deep and personal stake. The Reapers are going to kill *everyone*. Asari, Turian, Salarian....doesn't matter. They will kill *everyone*.

I never said it didn't allow the mission to succeed. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the fact that Miranda actually failed. The mission can continue but that doesn't stop the fact that she failed to get everyone safely to the doors.

You're the one who brought it up. Look you can fail one level and beat the whole game can you not? Of course you can. You can fail a sidequest and still beat a rpg can you not? That's what the BB was. She failed to get everyone safely over but she got most people over and they continued on to finish the quest. That's all there is to it.

She proved that like most humans she says something and she's wrong. She was wrong about getting everyone safely to the doors by holding the bubble. The world isnt ending because Miranda was wrong.

...And I still think it's widely out of character for her to even say that in the first place.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[kraidy1117]

Ryzaki wrote...

Everyone there has a deep and personal stake. The Reapers are going to kill *everyone*. Asari, Turian, Salarian....doesn't matter. They will kill *everyone*.

I never said it didn't allow the mission to succeed. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the fact that Miranda actually failed. The mission can continue but that doesn't stop the fact that she failed to get everyone safely to the doors.

You're the one who brought it up. Look you can fail one level and beat the whole game can you not? Of course you can. You can fail a sidequest and still beat a rpg can you not? That's what the BB was. She failed to get everyone safely over but she got most people over and they continued on to finish the quest. That's all there is to it.

She proved that like most humans she says something and she's wrong. She was wrong about getting everyone safely to the doors by holding the bubble. The world isnt ending because Miranda was wrong.

...And I still think it's widely out of character for her to even say that in the first place.

She never said she would get everyone out alive with the bubble. Get me dialog where she says she can get everyone with the bubble to the other side alive.

[jlb524]

Yeah, but if you gave up your life in the past two years to make sure it succeeded, I think you would have a bit more stake in it. An extra boost beyond the obvious.



I agree that Miranda did fail to get everyone to safety. But that wasn't the goal. As that wasn't the focus of the mission, I don't see what she did at the bubble as failure and that she should be vilified for it or blamed.

[Ryzaki]

An extra boost is not enough to make the difference between their levels of skill.

The goal of the BB was to get Shepard and a small team (the team that went with you) to safety. I'm going to see that as a failure.

Who said I villified her? I just thought her suggesting she do it was frankly foolish and out of character. For someone as pragmatic and cautious as Miranda it makes no sense.Now if the only choices had been Jack and herself it might've made sense. But as it is...

And I wouldn't fully blame her. I'd blame Shep for being silly enough to listen to her.

To me that convo practically goes like his: 

Samara: Well I can lead a small team and protect them with my biotics-

Miranda: Well I could do it too!

Shep: Yeah...we have a biotic...Samara, the...powerful Justicar with loads of biotic ability and training? Who came up with the idea and already offered to do it? 

Miranda: Well In theory any biotic can hold the bubble!

Shep:... <_< Samara...if you would?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 03:58 .

[kraidy1117]

Ryzaki wrote...

An extra boost is not enough to make the difference between their levels of skill.

The goal of the BB was to get Shepard and a small team (the team that went with you) to safety. I'm going to see that as a failure.

Who said I villified her? I just thought her suggesting she do it was frankly foolish and out of character. For someone as pragmatic and cautious as Miranda it makes no sense.Now if the only choices had been Jack and herself it might've made sense. But as it is...

And I wouldn't fully blame her. I'd blame Shep for being silly enough to listen to her.

Get me proof that was the mision. The mission was to get Shepard to the other side, the team is expandable because they knew what they signed up for. Miranda got you to safety, that's what matters. If the others survive  then good, if not then it's tagic but they are not the main focus.