15168 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

I think that does give a boost. Skill only gets you so far.



I also don't find her suggestion to be out of character.

[Ryzaki]

kraidy1117 wrote...
Get me proof that was the mision. The mission was to get Shepard to the other side, the team is expandable because they knew what they signed up for. Miranda got you to safety, that's what matters. If the others survive  then good, if not then it's tagic but they are not the main focus

Oh? So the point of the BB somehow changed from being get Shep and a small team to the other side to get Shep and anyone else who survive to the other side? 

Really? You're using that justication to change the fact that Miranda failed at something? 

[Ryzaki]

How is that suggestion in character? Everything you said about that extra boost is frankly not something I buy Miranda believing. If she didn't find Samara capable she would've said so. She wouldn't have simply said "I could do it too."

So centuries of honing your skills and abilities and being determined to stop the collectors to save innocents is somehow less than a few decades of honing skills and abilities and being determined to stop the collectors and keep your research project safe? 

Really?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[kraidy1117]

Ryzaki wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Get me proof that was the mision. The mission was to get Shepard to the other side, the team is expandable because they knew what they signed up for. Miranda got you to safety, that's what matters. If the others survive  then good, if not then it's tagic but they are not the main focus

Oh? So the point of the BB somehow changed from being get Shep and a small team to the other side to get Shep and anyone else who survive to the other side? 

Really? You're using that justication to change the fact that Miranda failed at something? 

Shepard says you can get a small team, Shepard does not say that's the focus, that's the idea. Miranda gets you to the other side, she just ran out of juice to have one squadmate survvie. She didn't lie, she overestimed her aiblties yes, but she was half right, and dialog proves that getting the small team alive was not the focus, it was Shepard. Yo want to prove me wrong, get me dialog to prove that.

[Ryzaki]

kraidy1117 wrote...
Shepard says you can get a small team, Shepard does not say that's the focus, that's the idea. Miranda gets you to the other side, she just ran out of juice to have one squadmate survvie. She didn't lie, she overestimed her aiblties yes, but she was half right, and dialog proves that getting the small team alive was not the focus, it was Shepard. Yo want to prove me wrong, get me dialog to prove that.

Where did I say she lied? What dialogue proves that getting the team alive was not the focus? When did they specify Shepard. Please. Prove that. And yes her overestimating her abilities is the whole point. She was wrong! She failed to do what she said she could.

I distinctly remember Samara going: "It won't be enough to hold all of us. But I could get a small squad through." 

That small squad being Shep and the two companions.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

How is that suggestion in character? Everything you said about that extra boost is frankly not something I buy Miranda believing. If she didn't find Samara capable she would've said so. She wouldn't have simply said "I could do it too."

So centuries of honing your skills and abilities and being determined to stop the collectors to save innocents is somehow less than a few decades of honing skills and abilities and being determined to stop the collectors and keep your research project safe? 

Really?

Yes, if it's personal.

I'm not saying she didn't find Samara incapable either.  Saying anyone can do it is not the same as saying 'Samara can't do it'.  From what knowledge she had, she believed anyone could do it, that was a biotic.   And she ends up being correct, as any bioitc can complete that mission.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Yes, if it's personal.

Yeah right. If Mike Tyson came into my house and killed my parents all the personal righetous rage in the galaxy wouldn't stop him from knocking me the f*ck out. Determination can only get you so far. Jack as a characer is a good example of this. I don't doubt she was determined not to be arrested but she was, she was probably stronger than her captors too. Just not enough to defeat all of them.

I'm not saying she didn't find Samara incapable either.  Saying anyone can do it is not the same as saying 'Samara can't do it'.  From what knowledge she had, she believed anyone could do it, that was a biotic.   And she ends up being correct, as any bioitc can complete that mission.

She specified herself before going on to any biotic can do it. Frankly I found that to be extremely...childish to tell the truth and I don't think it was remotely in character. At all. Why would Miranda believe any biotic could hold up a biotic shield (because that's exactly what it is) with intense concetration, have enough focus to keep it steady and have the bubble strong enough to hold under fire. Because that's exactly what it would need to do. You need power, ability and endurance for all of those things (Experience with biotic shields would be a plus) all of those things that Samara has in spades compared to the others. You think she would want the most powerful and experienced biotic in the crew to handle it.

She was wrong. She managed to get to the door but she did not safely escort the whole team. She did not complete the whole mission she just managed to get their (Please note Shep has to escort her to the door by picking her up when the shields comletely drop.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[ADLegend21]

I agree woth JLB, the mission was to get Shepard through. the bubble was the keep the seeker swarms away form the team so they wouldn't get petrified, but if one of them gets shot in the head that doesn't mean any biotic couldn't make a friggen bubble. Hell a biotic Shepard could make the bubble (I'd have loved it if an Adept Shepard could go "Screw you all, I'm making the bubble, I'm taking three people with me so keep up")

[Ryzaki]

ADLegend21 wrote...

I agree woth JLB, the mission was to get Shepard through. the bubble was the keep the seeker swarms away form the team so they wouldn't get petrified, but if one of them gets shot in the head that doesn't mean any biotic couldn't make a friggen bubble. Hell a biotic Shepard could make the bubble (I'd have loved it if an Adept Shepard could go "Screw you all, I'm making the bubble, I'm taking three people with me so keep up")

Actually I kind of wanted Shep to do it. But that said that would mean Shep Sue was on the level of a Justicar and the best human biotic in the galaxy.



Plus Harbinger would've just kept coming at you with his whole "I know you feel this" as he flung attacks at your shields.

Also. The BB keeps out seeker swarms but not bullets/husks? Really? 

Edit: Look the mission was not about getting Shepard across. While we all know Shep Sue is the star of the universe the haracters in game don't. It was about getting everyone incuding Shepard but if he/she had fallen they'd have gone on closer to the interior of the base to destroy it.

Actually it would be pretty cool if Shep could die on earlier parts of the mission and everyone else could finish it off successfully.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:27 .

[jlb524]

You act like Miranda isn't a capable biotic in her own right. With the Mike Tyson example, a good fighter with a more determination may stand a chance against him (perhaps more) than a fighter that is a bit more skilled but lacking that extra boost from determination. It's not like pitting a total weakling (with a lot of determination) against Mike Tyson.



She believes any biotic could do it b/c frankly any biotic can do it. My argument that sheer power shouldn't be the deciding factor, though it is given the mechanics of the mission. I still think going into the unknown, small differences in biotic power shouldn't be the only deciding factor.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

You act like Miranda isn't a capable biotic in her own right. With the Mike Tyson example, a good fighter with a more determination may stand a chance against him (perhaps more) than a fighter that is a bit more skilled but lacking that extra boost from determination. It's not like pitting a total weakling (with a lot of determination) against MikeTyson.

Thanks for calling me weak. <_<

Miranda is a capable biotic but she is not anywhere near the level of Samara. Let's be realistic. She says she has advanced biotics "for a human." Asari are on average stronger than humans with biotics and Samara is considered to be very powerful in Asari terms. Samara has had far more training and experience. Miranda might win a fight if she resulted to using something other than head on attacking but if she attacked head on I have little doubt she'd lose. (Truth be told the only reason I ever though she might defeat Jack is because Jack doesn't have a cool head. Samara doesn't have that problem).

She believes any biotic could do it b/c frankly any biotic can do it. My argument that sheer power shouldn't be the deciding factor, though it is given the mechanics of the mission. I still think going into the unknown, small differences in biotic power shouldn't be the only deciding factor.

No. Any biotic can get them close to the doors. Only Samara and Jack can successfuly reach the doors without needing Shepard's help and getting a teammate (who they were escorting) killed. And I have told you time and time again Samara has far more than just sheer power on her side. You are vastly underestimating the difference training and experience makes.

And if MIranda is so sure she's useful would she not be more useful you know...shooting things? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[chris025657]

I don't think that one Miranda line you're all referencing is a great assessment of Miranda's decision making skills.



For me, this line just seemed to be a clear explanation from the writers that the upcoming 'test' requires that you select a biotic. Miranda was also used to explain need for a tech expert and leaders for the alternate squads. It's probably just a story mechanic rather than character development.

[ADLegend21]

Ryzaki wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

I agree woth JLB, the mission was to get Shepard through. the bubble was the keep the seeker swarms away form the team so they wouldn't get petrified, but if one of them gets shot in the head that doesn't mean any biotic couldn't make a friggen bubble. Hell a biotic Shepard could make the bubble (I'd have loved it if an Adept Shepard could go "Screw you all, I'm making the bubble, I'm taking three people with me so keep up")

Actually I kind of wanted Shep to do it. But that said that would mean Shep Sue was on the level of a Justicar and the best human biotic in the galaxy.



Plus Harbinger would've just kept coming at you with his whole "I know you feel this" as he flung attacks at your shields.

Also. The BB keeps out seeker swarms but not bullets/husks? Really? 

Edit: Look the mission was not about getting Shepard across. While we all know Shep Sue is the star of the universe the haracters in game don't. It was about getting everyone incuding Shepard but if he/she had fallen they'd have gone on closer to the interior of the base to destroy it.

Actually it would be pretty cool if Shep could die on earlier parts of the mission and everyone else could finish it off successfully.

Evne though Jack's a biotic tank, I don't think she's a better biotic than and Adept Shepard, or hell even a Vangurd shep. Vanguard shep is the only person capable of a botic charge and can even slow down time with the right charge, why can't Jack? Shepard has military training with biotics and Jack has drugs. advantage Shep. actually it's the same with Miranda, she's trained with her biotics for years while JAck just got durgged up a teltin and then she's just wild with them. the only reason I can think they didn't make Miranda a perfect choice is because she'd be too specialized. She already is a perfect fire team leader for both teams and the only way to kill her is to basically kill the rest of the tam and ake her a one person fire team.

[toastye weasel]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...


Shep: Yeah...we have a biotic...Samara, the...powerful Justicar with loads of biotic ability and training? Who came up with the idea and already offered to do it? 

Miranda: Well In theory any biotic can hold the bubble!

Shep:... <_< Samara...if you would?


Exactly !!!

[Ryzaki]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Evne though Jack's a biotic tank, I don't think she's a better biotic than and Adept Shepard, or hell even a Vangurd shep. Vanguard shep is the only person capable of a botic charge and can even slow down time with the right charge, why can't Jack? Shepard has military training with biotics and Jack has drugs. advantage Shep. actually it's the same with Miranda, she's trained with her biotics for years while JAck just got durgged up a teltin and then she's just wild with them. the only reason I can think they didn't make Miranda a perfect choice is because she'd be too specialized. She already is a perfect fire team leader for both teams and the only way to kill her is to basically kill the rest of the tam and ake her a one person fire team.

No. I think Miranda's not a perfect choice because the Devs wanted to show that Miranda sometimes made mistakes and overestimated herself like humans are prone to do. I just wish they hadn't done it in what I see to be such a OOC way. I don't see Miranda as being an overly skilled Biotic. She's good. Oh she's beter than most people but she's not on the level of Jack, Samara or Shep Sue.

And Shep Sue's not a option because the base would blow up from his/her sheer awesomenes .

Game mechanics is why Jack can't do it. (Oddly she has more defensive abilities where in cutscenes everything she does is offensive. What's with that) Jack wasn't just drugged up, she was experimented on for the sheer purpose of strengthening her biotics. That whole place was based on making Jack as powerful as she is. Miranda has no such background. Jack didn't just spend time drugged up, she roamed with mercanary bands and gone gallivanting across the galaxy, she fought turians (didn't she take one of their battleships?) she's been in a lot of dangerous prisions and came out on top. She's a survivor and she's strong.

*blinks*

Wow. I just said something good about Jack.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...
Thanks for calling me weak. <_<

Miranda is a capable biotic but she is not anywhere near the level of Samara. Let's be realistic. She says she has advanced biotics "for a human." Asari are on average stronger than humans with biotics and Samara is considered to be very powerful in Asari terms. Samara has had far more training and experience. Miranda might win a fight if she resulted to using something other than head on attacking but if she attacked head on I have little doubt she'd lose. (Truth be told the only reason I ever though she might defeat Jack is because Jack doesn't have a cool head. Samara doesn't have that problem).

Yes, I'm calling you weak b/c you cannot beat up Mike Tyson.

I know that Miranda isn't as powerful as Samara.  I don't care.  All I'm saying is that other factors could be taken into consideration (beyond sheer biotic talent) when making this decision, realistically.  Gameplay mechanics dictate otherwise.

Ryzaki wrote...

No. Any biotic can get them close to the doors. Only Samara and Jack can successfuly reach the doors without needing Shepard's help and getting a teammate (who they were escorting) killed. And I have told you time and time again Samara has far more than just sheer power on her side. You are vastly underestimating the difference training and experience makes.

And if MIranda is so sure she's useful would she not be more useful you know...shooting things? 

Exactly, any biotic can get them to close the door which is ultimately the mission parameter.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...


Yes, I'm calling you weak b/c you cannot beat up Mike Tyson.

Then Miranda is weak because she can't beat up Samara.

I know that Miranda isn't as powerful as Samara.  I don't care.  All I'm saying is that other factors could be taken into consideration (beyond sheer biotic talent) when making this decision, realistically.  Gameplay mechanics dictate otherwise.

And the other factors are ones that Samara beats Miranda in. Unless Miranda is so desperate to see Shepard safe that she'll destroy the base completely on her own.

Exactly, any biotic can get them to close the door which is ultimately the mission parameter.

No. The mission parameter was safely escorting the crew to the doors. Not close, not half way, not near they were supposed to be at the door when the shields drop. They were supposed to be safe when the BB fell. With Miranda as the BB holder they weren't. When Jack's and Samara's bubble falls even though they weren't inside the area was clear and they were safe. (Due to that nice biotic blast). They accomplished the mission they set out to do "Escort the Crew Safely".

Regarding Miranda the plot device: I wouldn't have minded so much if she had just said in theory any biotic can do it instead of saying "I can do it too," so quickly. To me that felt like attention grabbing and...as I said before was really out of character.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:48 .

[jlb524]

Miranda did safely escort the crew to the door.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Miranda did safely escort the crew to the door.

Oh? I didn't realize being eaten alive by Seeker Swarms counted as being safe.

Edit: Also she was not at the door when she collasped. She was close but not there. The shield falls, Shepard grabs her and picks her up and drags her to the door while the second team member covers them, the third teammember turns to run to the door but gets caught by the Seeker swarms and dragged off.

Didn't realize that was an safe escort. Silly me I guess.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Miranda did safely escort the crew to the door.

Oh? I didn't realize being eaten alive by Seeker Swarms counted as being safe.

Edit: Also she was not at the door when she collasped. She was close but not there. The shield falls, Shepard grabs her and picks her up and drags her to the door while the second team member covers them, the third teammember turns to run to the door but gets caught by the Seeker swarms and dragged off.

Didn't realize that was an safe escort. Silly me I guess.

When was the entire crew eaten alive by Seeker Swarms?

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Miranda did safely escort the crew to the door.

Oh? I didn't realize being eaten alive by Seeker Swarms counted as being safe.

Edit: Also she was not at the door when she collasped. She was close but not there. The shield falls, Shepard grabs her and picks her up and drags her to the door while the second team member covers them, the third teammember turns to run to the door but gets caught by the Seeker swarms and dragged off.

Didn't realize that was an safe escort. Silly me I guess.

When was the entire crew eaten alive by Seeker Swarms?

Was the point of the mission only to get part of the squad there? 

Edit: Also reading. I said only one teammember was dragged off. She didn't hold the shield until they were safe. The shield fell and they had to make a run for it and someone didn't make it. So yes she failed. It's not the end of the world.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[jlb524]

The point of the mission was to get to the doors.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

The point of the mission was to get to the doors.

The point of the mission was to get a small squad safely to the doors.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The point of the mission was to get to the doors.

The point of the mission was to get a small squad safely to the doors.

No, the point was to get at least one person there to open them so the mission against the Collectors could continue.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The point of the mission was to get to the doors.

The point of the mission was to get a small squad safely to the doors.

No, the point was to get at least one person there to open them so the mission against the Collectors could continue.

Edit: My bad.

Regardless the point was to get the whole squad there safely. That was the whole point of the team being so small.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:06 .