15168 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Getting Shep there safe would be ideal, but not necessary to complete the mission.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Getting Shep there safe would be ideal, but not necessary to complete the mission.

Yeah I sort of edited that out. I got you and kraidy confused. Sorry about that.

Regardless the point of the BB was to get everyone within it there safely.

With that said we've gone over this for 2 pages and as my mother would say we're two stubborn ****es and neither of us are gonna budge. With that said I'm gonna go play AC2.

...With it's horrble DRM.

Let's hope my internet doesn't kick me off for once.

[jlb524]

Nope, we won't budge. XD



I will leave the thread with this: MIRANDA IS AWESOME!



I might explain why I feel this to be true later.

[t3HPrO]

Currently for the Miri/Tali friendship fic, I'm putting down Miranda as getting romanced by a Patrick Jane-esque Shepard who pushes all her buttons and somehow makes her like it(ignore Jacob's porno-line reference there). And don't mind me, I'm taking a nap in this corner. With my cuddly Miranda stuffed toy.



@Random dude/chick from a few pages back who's worried about Miranda's character dev

No worries, there'll most likely be a 'work-time' Miranda, and a 'private time with Shep' Miranda, thereby giving her a multi faceted character. 'Work time' Miranda is still as competent and aloof as before, but may let emotions get in the way on rare occassions. After all, emotions are what separates us humans from animals. If she didn't have any displays of emotion as some in this thread are advocating, she'd just be Legion's human female counterpart. 'Alone time with Shep' Miranda will probably be much softer than 'work time' Miranda, and that's where her (awkward?) displays of affection come out. And her freaky side too.

[Ieldra]

jlb524 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

A personal remark @all: 
I've just had a look at a character description I wrote a few years ago for one of my tabletop RPG characters. I knew she was simliar to Miranda, but the degree of similarity is eerie: Detached to the point of sometimes appearing cold? Check? Values independence (here in a culture that does not value it)? Check. Protective of her sisters? Check. High society background? Check. Pragmatic streak? Check. Her calling involves secret knowledge? Check. She even has almost the same name ("Mirande") and that world's equivalent of superpower potential!!! Practically the only important trait she doesn't share with Miranda is her appearance. Weird...  

You must really love those type of characters then!  I think the name being almost the same (minus only one letter) is the most eerie similarity. 

I think it's refreshing and exciting when someone does create a character that kind of possesses all the traits you tend to love in a fictional character.  It's usually rare to find a character that matches up so well.  It's also understandable to be extremely resistant to any changes to that character that would remove those things you love.

Indeed. It's extremely rare - Miranda is only the second one, and the first well-defined one. The first one was the female Rune Warrior in Spellforce: The Order of Dawn - but that was mostly done by the absence of any traits I do *not* like - she had heroic determination without being in any way ideological or moralistic. Miranda has that, too, well, apart from her selective perception of Cerberus - plus all the traits I like. That's unique.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Here's an unpleasant question, but it goes to how I RP my current Shepard. If Miranda does the barrier, how angry should Shepard be when it fails? How much would Miranda blame herself?

I haven't read all the details of the last few pages about this, but I don't think this has been posted:

It would bother Miranda, and she'd want to know if she made a mistake by recommending herself. She'd go to Samara and have a biotic endurance contest with her. After that, she would blame herself but not agonize over it. Since she and Shepard are close, they'd probably talk about it. Miranda would be able to put it behind herself in the end.
Shepard should not be angry, since nobody could've known there was a better outcome.  

[Ryzaki]

See I can't force myself to play a Shep that would take her recommendation seriously. He kind of goes "Uh huh." while turning back to Samara. Rude and dismissive to be sure but really I can't stand that moment and feel it's really...silly to be honest. That said I think she wouldn't agonize over it but it would become one of those unknown mistakes she mentions. And yes I could see her trying to have a biotic contest with Samara. Something more like sparring.

Though I could easily see some of my Sheps getting angry but the ones that would get angry are the ones least likely to listen to her at that point.

Depending on who got carried away though I could easily see even my more nicer Sheps becoming bitter or blaming Miranda/himself (particularly if the carried off person is a LI or Tali/Garrus).

Actually a friendly Miranda and Shepard with Miranda holding the bubble and Shep placing his trust in her abilities just for his LI/One of his best friends to be killed makes for an interesting thought. I could see that influencing his decision to keep/destroy the base as well.

Alas. I suck at fics.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:37 .

[Ieldra]

My post was in answer to jtav's scenario, Ryzaki, in which her femShep and Miranda are friends and Kasumi - the one who was carried away - was also close to Shepard. In my games, I won't use anyone but Samara for the biotic bubble.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

My post was in answer to jtav's scenario, Ryzaki, in which her femShep and Miranda are friends and Kasumi - the one who was carried away - was also close to Shepard. In my games, I won't use anyone but Samara for the biotic bubble.

Not even Jack?

...I have gots to romance her eventually. I keep putting it off. But sheesh. I'm finding all the ME2 romances so cringeworthy. I miss DAO.

Also Kasumi? 

Poor Kasumi. Alas.

Hm...well my poor Shep's. Idealists.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[fongiel24]

I can't see Shepard blaming Miranda for it. She doesn't actually say "Pick me!", she says "In theory, any biotic could do it.", which is true. Expecting zero casualties in the process of getting to the doorway is unreasonable in a combat situation. If we're actually going to be assigning blame, it's Shepard's fault for picking Miranda since as the mission commander, it's his responsibility to pick the right person for the job based on what he knows of their capabilities.



As for Shepard's reaction to losing a squadmate, I can't see him getting too torn up over it. He's a career soldier and an elite one at that. He's lost people before. Commanders can't dwell on their losses or they'll go insane, and more importantly, compromise the mission.

[Elyvern]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't see her recommendation to destroy the base as that bad. It seems to me that she's greatly idealized Cerberus, rationalizing their grievous errors and refusing to believe that TIM had anything to do with major atrocities. She's loyal to Cerberus because she believes that they'll do the things that she wants to do herself; when TIM himself breaks her ideals with wanting to take possession of the Collector base, an action she likely sees as grievous disrespect to its victims and a betrayal of her own ideals, she naturally storms off.

Yes, but in thinking that you actually ignore 1 aspect of her personality -- her rational and pragmatic side. Saving the CB would not pre-empt her from seeing it, to use your words, as grevious disrespect for its victims and a betrayal of her own ideals. Her being disapointed with TIM does not equate to her losing her pragmatic streak. The pragmatist in her would still be compelled to think long-term about what that base would mean for the fight against the Reapers. She may even have to struggle with her sense of disgust at keeping it, but once she has the chance to think about it, her rationale side, the side that has been the driving force throughout the game compelling her to make distasteful decisions not based on knee-jerk emotional responses but for the greater good would and should win out. 

Besides, no other decision in the game has more stakes involved than the CB decision. This isn't about killing Niket, her once-best friend to safeguard her sister's whereabouts, this isn't about not wanting to talk to Oriana because she doesn't want to complicate her sister's life, this is the fate of all sapient life in galaxy at stake here. If she chooses to let her emotions overrule her especially at this point in time, there's no way to see as anything but an OCC moment, or if it's intentional, a major jump towards softening her character to the point where she is standing right at the opposite of the spectrum where she started-- she's actually letting her emotions rule over a life-and-death decision whereas before it was always her rationale that made the choice for her. Anymore developement she undergoes in ME3 would and could easily reduce her to an emotional wreak! Then where the hell would be the character that we know as Miranda Lawson? She'll be effectively gone, replaced by someone else totally different.

[Ryzaki]

fongiel24 wrote...

I can't see Shepard blaming Miranda for it. She doesn't actually say "Pick me!", she says "In theory, any biotic could do it.", which is true. Expecting zero casualties in the process of getting to the doorway is unreasonable in a combat situation. If we're actually going to be assigning blame, it's Shepard's fault for picking Miranda since as the mission commander, it's his responsibility to pick the right person for the job based on what he knows of their capabilities.

As for Shepard's reaction to losing a squadmate, I can't see him getting too torn up over it. He's a career soldier and an elite one at that. He's lost people before. Commanders can't dwell on their losses or they'll go insane, and more importantly, compromise the mission.

She said something closer to:  "I could do it too, in theory any biotic could." The thing that makes me feel that tis is a pick me! moment is that she says this after Samara has finished her explanation and Shep is getting ready to head out and follow Samara's suggestion.

True that. But the whole point is to get the most powerful biotic in your group to hold the bubble and if you've suffered no casulties up to that point you have two more powerful biotics in your group than Miranda.  And I already said I would put part of the blame on Shepard. A bad commander is a bad commander. But Miranda overestimated her abilities in that case.

Eh he's still a person and losing a loved one and close friend is going to hurt no matter how much of a solider you are. He might not break down in tears at that exact moment (and frankly if he did I'd find it silly) but that doesn't mean he's going to get over it in one two three.

My Sheps mourn all their fallen comrades. In private and alone. No one else needs to know because frankly it's no one else's business. In the case of Tali/Garrus though I could see him probably opening up to which ever of them survived and maybe Joker and Chakwas.

Edit: Though am I really the only one who felt that was out of character? The second she suggested it I did a double take.

It would've made far more sense had she suggested herself as a backup in case for whatever reason Samara/Jack couldn't sustain the bubble. (Too many enemies. Too many swarms. Whatever.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:00 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

My post was in answer to jtav's scenario, Ryzaki, in which her femShep and Miranda are friends and Kasumi - the one who was carried away - was also close to Shepard. In my games, I won't use anyone but Samara for the biotic bubble.

I've actually never used Miranda for the biotic bubble, but I'm going do that on my next runthrough just to see what she says and how she struggles with it (in the interest of getting more access to her character). It should be fun.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Here's an unpleasant question, but it goes to how I RP my current Shepard. If Miranda does the barrier, how angry should Shepard be when it fails? How much would Miranda blame herself?

I haven't read all the details of the last few pages about this, but I don't think this has been posted:

It would bother Miranda, and she'd want to know if she made a mistake by recommending herself. She'd go to Samara and have a biotic endurance contest with her. After that, she would blame herself but not agonize over it. Since she and Shepard are close, they'd probably talk about it. Miranda would be able to put it behind herself in the end.
Shepard should not be angry, since nobody could've known there was a better outcome.  

I agree with Ieldra here. And to add my own POV: it wouldn't be something she'll be thinking about much until after the mission, because the timing wouldn't be appropriate then. If both she and Shepard are as close as you're making them out to be, they would feel the failure jointly as the two officers responsible for planning the mission, but upon talking it out, they'd realise that they did their best. Inwardly, I think Miranda may feel more reservations than Shepard because it's once again, this may feel like another mistake on her part. But in the end, they'll move on.

[Elyvern]

Ryzaki wrote...

She said something closer to:  "I could do it too, in theory any biotic could." The thing that makes me feel that tis is a pick me! moment is that she says this after Samara has finished her explanation and Shep is getting ready to head out and follow Samara's suggestion.

I'd also like to point out there are playthroughs where Jack dies from lack of shielding, Samara/Morinth aren't recruited for the end-game. How would that change your view of Miranda's line if your playthrough was like that?

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

She said something closer to:  "I could do it too, in theory any biotic could." The thing that makes me feel that tis is a pick me! moment is that she says this after Samara has finished her explanation and Shep is getting ready to head out and follow Samara's suggestion.

I'd also like to point out there are playthroughs where Jack dies from lack of shielding, Samara/Morinth aren't recruited for the end-game. How would that change your view of Miranda's line if your playthrough was like that?

Ah. Does she say that line then? Because Samara's no longer there to make the suggestion in the first place. So I assume her line is more resonable sounding.

Do you know what her line is? Or could point me towards a youtube vid? It would be appreciated.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:23 .

[Elyvern]

As far as I know, she does. They didn't bother to record more lines to address all the permutations. I'll be double-checking that on my current playthrough when I get my PC fixed in the coming week.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Hi guys and girls! New forumite here, and a die hard Thane&Miri fangirl. I've been lurking around here for a coupla months without an account, and now that my holidays are around the corner, it's forum time! Now, epic post will be epic, so someone's gonna need to post a Miri pic to break up the doomwall after I'm done. And if you can't take some opposing viewpoints, then don't read.

I've been following the last few...hundreds? of posts over the 3 months I was lurking, and I realized that Mirimancers seem to be a really fragmented group. One camp wants her one-dimensional and b*tchy, while the other wants her to soften up, but still retain her efficiency in work. I've noticed that all those that want Miri to remain an ice queen with next to no emotions are women like me, while those that want her character development to continue are guys. Jtav, Elyvern, you girls seem to be as allergic to the idea of Miranda learning to be more human and emotional as the average American is to nuts (I'm English, btw). And the general idea I get from your posts is that you're afraid that Miranda will be 'chickified' and learn to show emotions. I find that worrying about chickification is rather pointless, as it's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. As long as Bioware's writers keep their brains (do they have any?)functional, well, stop worrying. Now, the second part is the one I have gripes with. I like Miranda to be softer and learn to show emotions. However, you girls seem to think that Miranda showing emotions= weak Miranda and therefore women=weak.

Or at least that's what I understand from your posts. I'd like to counter that thought by saying that if we women are weak, so what? Nobody's perfect (except for Miranda), and Miranda learning to show emotions is an integral part of her character development. You say that others are trying to 'Talify' Miranda by making her softer, but in actual fact you are 'talifying' Miranda by closing off her character dev (seeing that Tali had no character dev from ME1-2) and making her an emotionless...robot, for lack of a better term. Sure, I'd hate for Miranda to suddenly become an incompetent operative, but her opening up and her losing her incompetence are as related as we humans are to ants. Basically, what I see Miranda becoming in ME3 is quite close to how  t3HPrO and Yannkee see her. I see her as still being that aloof, highly efficient and successful operative (with less ice) as her public appearance, but when she's alone with Shepard, she'll be a lot more emotional and she'll try to display some shows of affection. But that only happens in the confines of Shep's cabin. So yes, she'll still be highly competent, but she'll be more human in the sense that she actually displays some emotions.

@ t3HPrO: Good grief, calm down. You seem to blow your top rather easily. I agree with your view of how Miranda'll develop to in ME3, and I think your fanfic is rather good, but it's a bit OOC. The problem is that you mostly display 'private time Miranda', which makes others think that she's always emotional, which is why they think your fanfic is grossly OOC. Just saying.

Now, time for me to open the s**t can. Miranda's sex life. Yes, that 20 megaton nuclear missile.  While I don't argue the fact that she's no longer a virgin (duh...with that bod, which I'm SO jealous of), I don't think she's as active as some of you make her out to be. Sure, she's got her fair share of experience, but she probably doesn't get even half as much sex as some of you think she does thanks to her job, her impossible standards, inconvienience, and security concerns. She's no prude, and neither am I, what with my various sexual experiences, but some of you make her out to be a lust-filled woman hunting for a lay every two days or so. That's 's*utifying' her, and while I fully agree that she has every right to exploit and use her perfect body for sexual pleasures, but she's abusing it from the way some of you are describing it.

All right, the FNG (F*cking New Girl) has said her piece, so it's time for her to bail before she gets burnt at the stake. By the way, I'm writing a fanfic that revolves around snapshots of Miri&Mike Shepard's romance, from the frosty beginning to the steaming hot end. t3HPrO, your Patrick Jane-esque Shepard is freaking awesome! Patrick Jane is so damn sexy that I simply NEED to borrow your awesome Shep/Jane. Can I haz your awesome Shep pleez?

[toastye weasel]

welcome to the form

[t3HPrO]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...
All right, the FNG (F*cking New Girl) has said her piece, so it's time for her to bail before she gets burnt at the stake. By the way, I'm writing a fanfic that revolves around snapshots of Miri&Mike Shepard's romance, from the frosty beginning to the steaming hot end. t3HPrO, your Patrick Jane-esque Shepard is freaking awesome! Patrick Jane is so damn sexy that I simply NEED to borrow your awesome Shep/Jane. Can I haz your awesome Shep pleez?

Welcome to the board! When you said that epic post would be epic, you sure weren't kidding. You really think a lot like me and Yannkee too (and quite a few other Mirimancers). And yes, you do haz permission to use my Shep...for $15 million euros. MUAHAHAHAHA. Just kidding, go ahead.

[t3HPrO]

In order to break up the doomwall like Ms Katie requested, here's a classic pic of Miri going "WTF?"

[Xilizhra]

Elyvern wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't see her recommendation to destroy the base as that bad. It seems to me that she's greatly idealized Cerberus, rationalizing their grievous errors and refusing to believe that TIM had anything to do with major atrocities. She's loyal to Cerberus because she believes that they'll do the things that she wants to do herself; when TIM himself breaks her ideals with wanting to take possession of the Collector base, an action she likely sees as grievous disrespect to its victims and a betrayal of her own ideals, she naturally storms off.

Yes, but in thinking that you actually ignore 1 aspect of her personality -- her rational and pragmatic side. Saving the CB would not pre-empt her from seeing it, to use your words, as grevious disrespect for its victims and a betrayal of her own ideals. Her being disapointed with TIM does not equate to her losing her pragmatic streak. The pragmatist in her would still be compelled to think long-term about what that base would mean for the fight against the Reapers. She may even have to struggle with her sense of disgust at keeping it, but once she has the chance to think about it, her rationale side, the side that has been the driving force throughout the game compelling her to make distasteful decisions not based on knee-jerk emotional responses but for the greater good would and should win out. 

Besides, no other decision in the game has more stakes involved than the CB decision. This isn't about killing Niket, her once-best friend to safeguard her sister's whereabouts, this isn't about not wanting to talk to Oriana because she doesn't want to complicate her sister's life, this is the fate of all sapient life in galaxy at stake here. If she chooses to let her emotions overrule her especially at this point in time, there's no way to see as anything but an OCC moment, or if it's intentional, a major jump towards softening her character to the point where she is standing right at the opposite of the spectrum where she started-- she's actually letting her emotions rule over a life-and-death decision whereas before it was always her rationale that made the choice for her. Anymore developement she undergoes in ME3 would and could easily reduce her to an emotional wreak! Then where the hell would be the character that we know as Miranda Lawson? She'll be effectively gone, replaced by someone else totally different.

It's not necessarily completely emotional thinking. While I don't think that it's been terribly developed in her mind by this point yet, she may be thinking along the same lines as I am; that this TIM, clearly not as honorable as she thought, may prove to be a threat that would hinder the fight against the Reapers.

What's actually really interesting here is that your own behavior is identical to Miranda's. You prefer your own image of the character to the character herself. One might think that, judging by your clear respect for Miranda's rationality and pragmatism, that she'd come up with some sort of at least halfway decent reason for supporting the base's destruction, even if at that moment, she phrased her recommendation poorly. However, believing this strongly in your own paradigm of the base's necessity, you instead choose to believe that it's simply a weakening of her character.

[Elyvern]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...


I've been following the last few...hundreds? of posts over the 3 months I was lurking, and I realized that Mirimancers seem to be a really fragmented group. One camp wants her one-dimensional and b*tchy, while the other wants her to soften up, but still retain her efficiency in work. I've noticed that all those that want Miri to remain an ice queen with next to no emotions are women like me, while those that want her character development to continue are guys. Jtav, Elyvern, you girls seem to be as allergic to the idea of Miranda learning to be more human and emotional as the average American is to nuts (I'm English, btw). And the general idea I get from your posts is that you're afraid that Miranda will be 'chickified' and learn to show emotions. I find that worrying about chickification is rather pointless, as it's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. As long as Bioware's writers keep their brains (do they have any?)functional, well, stop worrying. Now, the second part is the one I have gripes with. I like Miranda to be softer and learn to show emotions. However, you girls seem to think that Miranda showing emotions= weak Miranda and therefore women=weak.

Welcome to the forum! It's always good to see new faces here.

As to your assertions, I can only shake my head over what you've extracted from your months of reading posts here, and the way you sum up desires of one camp wanting her b*itchy and one-dimensional, and how the onus of the blame falls on me and jtav because we're women. It's not in my place to speak for anyone's beliefs, but I'm just boggled at how you put words into my mouth. I never said that other people are "talifying" Miranda. I make it a point never to make comparisons between characters or their fanbases.

I'm also boggled at how you selectively ignored other things I say and then blow up certain topics. With regards to Miranda's emotional side, she's already getting more comfortable with her emotions. Something like this has been building up throughout the game. I like the fact that she changes and has one of the biggest potential to change of all the characters in ME2. By all means, she can be more empathic and friendly to people, and I'd imagine that for any sort of relationship progress to occur, she'd need to open up more to Shepard as well, so no problems there. The issue is not so much to do with her emotional expression, but the idea that she cannot be pragmatic once she softens up. but as LesEnfantsTerribles has pointed out just a few pages back, these are seperate aspects of her character and can work in conjuncture. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Except at the Collector's base, her words make it sound like Bioware intends both to be mutually exclusive. Saying things like using the base feels like a betrayal suggests that she has so much empathy for the victims and is so morally outraged at the idea that she is willing to risk the chance of sacrificing the all sapient life in the galaxy to obtain emotional vindication and ease her moral conscience. How does this allow her to retain her efficiency at work, to use your words, if may I ask? That she would probably feel more empathic for the suffering of the colonists is understandable, that she would be ambivalent towards giving the base to TIM and Cerberus (after we mentally conjure scenarios on how her loyalty to them has eroded) can also be arrived at eventually. It's the one-or-the-other mentality that I can't accept. I can't accept that the price for her being emotional requires her to forsake all rationality and all sense of self preservation. Why would I want an XO who is going to encourage me to destroy a strategic resource because she feels it's morally wrong? She should be the one to point out all sides of the argument and remind me morals aren't going to win the war against the Reapers.

Or at least that's what I understand from your posts. I'd like to counter that thought by saying that if we women are weak, so what? Nobody's perfect (except for Miranda), and Miranda learning to show emotions is an integral part of her character development. You say that others are trying to 'Talify' Miranda by making her softer, but in actual fact you are 'talifying' Miranda by closing off her character dev (seeing that Tali had no character dev from ME1-2) and making her an emotionless...robot, for lack of a better term. Sure, I'd hate for Miranda to suddenly become an incompetent operative, but her opening up and her losing her incompetence are as related as we humans are to ants. Basically, what I see Miranda becoming in ME3 is quite close to how  t3HPrO and Yannkee see her. I see her as still being that aloof, highly efficient and successful operative (with less ice) as her public appearance, but when she's alone with Shepard, she'll be a lot more emotional and she'll try to display some shows of affection. But that only happens in the confines of Shep's cabin. So yes, she'll still be highly competent, but she'll be more human in the sense that she actually displays some emotions.

I hope you can see from my argument that whatever "weakness" you're positing has nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman, so please don't pull that card out like it's a train ticket you use everyday. But to return the ball to your court, you're also forgetting that there are people that play as femshep and appreciate Miranda as a friend. How does your scenario fit in for them? Because there wouldn't be cabin time between her and femshep, because femshep arguably has far less influence on her character change than a maleshep that romances her, her character change for maleshep is thus perfectly justfiable? Can you see where I'm going? 

[Xilizhra]

As mentioned in my previous post, I question the notion that wanting to destroy the base means that she's definitely no longer pragmatic.

[Elyvern]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's not necessarily completely emotional thinking. While I don't think that it's been terribly developed in her mind by this point yet, she may be thinking along the same lines as I am; that this TIM, clearly not as honorable as she thought, may prove to be a threat that would hinder the fight against the Reapers.

What's actually really interesting here is that your own behavior is identical to Miranda's. You prefer your own image of the character to the character herself. One might think that, judging by your clear respect for Miranda's rationality and pragmatism, that she'd come up with some sort of at least halfway decent reason for supporting the base's destruction, even if at that moment, she phrased her recommendation poorly. However, believing this strongly in your own paradigm of the base's necessity, you instead choose to believe that it's simply a weakening of her character.

Actually, you missed out on another option I also subscribe to: it was lazy writing, and because of design constraints and the need to have her resign from Cerberus in the fastest time possible if Shepard chooses to destroy the base.
 
My gripe is this: There is no credible build-up of her loss of loyalty to TIM or Cerberus. Or depending on your dialogue choice, absolutely no hints at all.

To arrive at the stage where she feels that Cerberus and TIM doesn't serve humanity as she'd envisioned already requires us to extrapolate that her doubts about the organisation grew off-screen given that we have one in-game example where she expresses dismay at the possibility of TIM betraying them, and it's an optional scenario depending on which dialogue choice Shepard chooses. Teltin isn't a good choice either for substantiating her eroding loyalty because the recording at the start suggests strongly it's a facility gone rogue. So in effect, someone could go through the game without ever getting any hints that she is beginning to feel disilusioned about Cerberus. Why would I as a player, be needed to rationalise her growing disllusionment, and then on top of the heap of rationalisation I have made, further rationalise that she may have phrased her recommendation poorly? I hope you can agree that it takes alot of disingenuity to be able to come to that point of view, and that something like that shouldn't be neccessary.

I hope that answers your accusation that I have a fixed ideal of Miranda in my mind that I wouldn't give up for any evidence in the world. Regarding my paradigm about the neccesssity of the base? I almost always destroy the base in my playthroughs because I just can't shake off the feeling that I'm giving TIM a nuke. That and the ironic belief that paragon choices will not be punished in-game. I'm far more of an idealist than Miranda, and never once do I confuse the difference between us.