15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Elyvern]

Xilizhra wrote...

As mentioned in my previous post, I question the notion that wanting to destroy the base means that she's definitely no longer pragmatic.

Feel free to question. Because we're unlikely to get the answer until ME3 comes around as the CB interaction is the last we have with Miranda in ME2. And because it's literally the cliffhanger of her character progression, you'll understand why so many of us are so finnicky about it. The coin could land on either face come ME3.

[Xilizhra]

You're correct in that it probably shouldn't be necessary, but in-universe, she had reasons for her behavior and if we're trying to discern them, we can't just say "lazy writing" and be done with it. Rationalization is by this point our only choice if we're to figure anything out.



Also, I apologize for my assumptions regarding your paradigms; I suppose I'm too used to arguing with base supporters.

[Elyvern]

Unfortunately, we can't discount the possibility of lazy writing at all. Especially given the glaring fact that if you don't do her LM, which is purported to be crucial towards cementing her loyalty to Shepard, she would also advocate destroying the base. Shouldn't you be wondering if there is a chance she would turn on Shepard if that was the case? Would extrapolating that she's disillusioned with Cerberus be enough for her to throw her cause with Shepard? Note that her LM is one of the biggest causes of her warming up emotionally as a character and a disloyal Miranda wouldn't have undergone that. Why would she then still advocate destroying the base? Except we'll never get an answer to her decision because she will die in the fight after.

All that evidence screams to me that the writers was pouncing on something, anything to write her out of Cerberus if Shepard destroys the base to set up some scenario in ME3.

[Caihn]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...
Hi guys and girls! New forumite here, and a die hard Thane&Miri fangirl. I've been lurking around here for a coupla months without an account, and now that my holidays are around the corner, it's forum time! Now, epic post will be epic, so someone's gonna need to post a Miri pic to break up the doomwall after I'm done. And if you can't take some opposing viewpoints, then don't read.

I've been following the last few...hundreds? of posts over the 3 months I was lurking, and I realized that Mirimancers seem to be a really fragmented group. One camp wants her one-dimensional and b*tchy, while the other wants her to soften up, but still retain her efficiency in work. I've noticed that all those that want Miri to remain an ice queen with next to no emotions are women like me, while those that want her character development to continue are guys. Jtav, Elyvern, you girls seem to be as allergic to the idea of Miranda learning to be more human and emotional as the average American is to nuts (I'm English, btw). And the general idea I get from your posts is that you're afraid that Miranda will be 'chickified' and learn to show emotions. I find that worrying about chickification is rather pointless, as it's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. As long as Bioware's writers keep their brains (do they have any?)functional, well, stop worrying. Now, the second part is the one I have gripes with. I like Miranda to be softer and learn to show emotions. However, you girls seem to think that Miranda showing emotions= weak Miranda and therefore women=weak.

Or at least that's what I understand from your posts. I'd like to counter that thought by saying that if we women are weak, so what? Nobody's perfect (except for Miranda), and Miranda learning to show emotions is an integral part of her character development. You say that others are trying to 'Talify' Miranda by making her softer, but in actual fact you are 'talifying' Miranda by closing off her character dev (seeing that Tali had no character dev from ME1-2) and making her an emotionless...robot, for lack of a better term. Sure, I'd hate for Miranda to suddenly become an incompetent operative, but her opening up and her losing her incompetence are as related as we humans are to ants. Basically, what I see Miranda becoming in ME3 is quite close to how  t3HPrO and Yannkee see her. I see her as still being that aloof, highly efficient and successful operative (with less ice) as her public appearance, but when she's alone with Shepard, she'll be a lot more emotional and she'll try to display some shows of affection. But that only happens in the confines of Shep's cabin. So yes, she'll still be highly competent, but she'll be more human in the sense that she actually displays some emotions.

Now, time for me to open the s**t can. Miranda's sex life. Yes, that 20 megaton nuclear missile.  While I don't argue the fact that she's no longer a virgin (duh...with that bod, which I'm SO jealous of), I don't think she's as active as some of you make her out to be. Sure, she's got her fair share of experience, but she probably doesn't get even half as much sex as some of you think she does thanks to her job, her impossible standards, inconvienience, and security concerns. She's no prude, and neither am I, what with my various sexual experiences, but some of you make her out to be a lust-filled woman hunting for a lay every two days or so. That's 's*utifying' her, and while I fully agree that she has every right to exploit and use her perfect body for sexual pleasures, but she's abusing it from the way some of you are describing it.

^this

And welcome to the forums.

Modifié par Yannkee, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[enayasoul]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

. I'd like to counter that thought by saying that if we women are weak, so what? Nobody's perfect (except for Miranda), and Miranda learning to show emotions is an integral part of her character development. You say that others are trying to 'Talify' Miranda by making her softer, but in actual fact you are 'talifying' Miranda by closing off her character dev (seeing that Tali had no character dev from ME1-2) and making her an emotionless...robot, for lack of a better term. Sure, I'd hate for Miranda to suddenly become an incompetent operative, but her opening up and her losing her incompetence are as related as we humans are to ants. Basically, what I see Miranda becoming in ME3 is quite close to how  t3HPrO and Yannkee see her. I see her as still being that aloof, highly efficient and successful operative (with less ice) as her public appearance, but when she's alone with Shepard, she'll be a lot more emotional and she'll try to display some shows of affection. But that only happens in the confines of Shep's cabin. So yes, she'll still be highly competent, but she'll be more human in the sense that she actually displays some emotions.

Now, time for me to open the s**t can. Miranda's sex life. Yes, that 20 megaton nuclear missile.  While I don't argue the fact that she's no longer a virgin (duh...with that bod, which I'm SO jealous of), I don't think she's as active as some of you make her out to be. Sure, she's got her fair share of experience, but she probably doesn't get even half as much sex as some of you think she does thanks to her job, her impossible standards, inconvienience, and security concerns. She's no prude, and neither am I, what with my various sexual experiences, but some of you make her out to be a lust-filled woman hunting for a lay every two days or so. That's 's*utifying' her, and while I fully agree that she has every right to exploit and use her perfect body for sexual pleasures, but she's abusing it from the way some of you are describing it.

I agree with these points in bold. I can see her opening up to Shepard more in private than in front of the crew.  She should still have those qualities of being highly competent.  I hope they do explore these areas.

She's clearly a workaholic so I also think she wouldn't have had that much sex because of it but she really does love it.  I am sure she will be quite adventurous. 

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
As mentioned in my previous post, I question the notion that wanting to destroy the base means that she's definitely no longer pragmatic.

Then she should have given me a good reason to destroy the base. Had she said "I know how things work in Cerberus. Most of the military cells - and thats where the base will end up with - aren't remotely careful enough with unknown technology. If they get this base, our chances against the Reapers will be lessened," then I say it's a good argument. I would not have agreed with her, but there would be no claim that she's lost her pragmatism or acted out of character. But what she said "It feels like a betrayal", that does indeed seem like she's lost her pragmatism, and I very much hope *that* trend doesn't continue.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:37 .

[Caihn]

Xilizhra wrote...

As mentioned in my previous post, I question the notion that wanting to destroy the base means that she's definitely no longer pragmatic.

There is no relation of cause and effect between Miranda supporting the destruction of the base (with her reasons) and Miranda losing all her pragmatism.

And IMO, keeping the base is more a stupid decision than a pragmatic one. Even with my most pragmatic Shepard I've never kept the base.

[Ieldra]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...
I've been following the last few...hundreds? of posts over the 3 months I was lurking, and I realized that Mirimancers seem to be a really fragmented group. One camp wants her one-dimensional and b*tchy, while the other wants her to soften up, but still retain her efficiency in work. I've noticed that all those that want Miri to remain an ice queen with next to no emotions are women like me, while those that want her character development to continue are guys. Jtav, Elyvern, you girls seem to be as allergic to the idea of Miranda learning to be more human and emotional as the average American is to nuts (I'm English, btw). And the general idea I get from your posts is that you're afraid that Miranda will be 'chickified' and learn to show emotions.

Perhaps a few things should be clarified: First, I'm a man, and I usually argue for Miranda to keep her emotional detachment. I'm generally not opposed to Miranda showing emotions in private - after all, an "unemotional romance" is an oxymoron, but that's usually not a problem with female characters. However, it *is* often a problem with female characters that they let their emotions influence professional decisions where that makes them seem dumb. It *is* a problem that female characters are often *defined* by their emotions instead of their competence and independence. That is what I, Elyvern, jtav and others do not want to happen to her. We do not want her to be nothing but Shepard's satellite, but to retain her professional competence and independence. We would also like her to retain most of her pragmatism - again, in professional decisions. It is not a contradiction, but all so often in fiction, female characters are written one-dimensional. Miranda's behaviour at the Collector base is an example - see my previous post for what I mean. *That* is her emotions interfering with the most important professional decision we make in ME2. The way she argues, not the recommendation itself, makes her appear as if she's lost it, makes her appear dumb. I do not want to see her like that again.

So, what we fear is that Miranda turns into a stereotype all too often used for female characters in fiction, thereby losing her uniqueness. It is not true we want her emotionless, but she isn't that in ME2 (see the end of her loyalty mission) and significantly more than she does show in ME2 - in her loyalty mission and in the romance - would make her less unique.

Or so say it the shortest possible terms: whatever happens in Shepard's cabin - and that can be really anything as long as it's not demeaning, really - should have little influence on how Miranda behaves professionally. If I might point you to my fanfic A Promise of Love and Death. They're talking about how the fact that they love each other will influence their jobs. I'd like a Miranda who would hold to that promise, not because she has no emotions, but because her pragmatism will overrule them if it's important enough.

I also agree with Elyvern's answer to your post.

Now, time for me to open the s**t can. Miranda's sex life. Yes, that 20 megaton nuclear missile.  While I don't argue the fact that she's no longer a virgin (duh...with that bod, which I'm SO jealous of), I don't think she's as active as some of you make her out to be. Sure, she's got her fair share of experience, but she probably doesn't get even half as much sex as some of you think she does thanks to her job, her impossible standards, inconvienience, and security concerns. She's no prude, and neither am I, what with my various sexual experiences, but some of you make her out to be a lust-filled woman hunting for a lay every two days or so. That's 's*utifying' her, and while I fully agree that she has every right to exploit and use her perfect body for sexual pleasures, but she's abusing it from the way some of you are describing it.

Please, where did you get that impression? I and others never said anything like that. I do not think anyone here wants that. It's only that some people get that impression whenever anyone talks easily about sex. I say - and feel in a fundamental way - that sex is not a problem, and my arguments and the way I respond to others are informed by that. Whenever someone says "I say Miranda's sexual experiences are very limited", I hear a hidden prude talking, and whenever I say she is sexually experienced (that is the phrasing I use most of the time), people like Yannkee hear - well, I really don't know what they hear, but it's definitely more than I want to say. Miranda has high standards for her partners, that limits her possible encounters. She also has no problem with sex, that may increase her possible encounters. Exactly where she lands, really, I don't care. We don't know, and every one of us has his own image. But I won't let Miranda be re-defined by prudes.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
As mentioned in my previous post, I question the notion that wanting to destroy the base means that she's definitely no longer pragmatic.

There is no relation of cause and effect between Miranda supporting the destruction of the base (with her reasons) and Miranda losing all her pragmatism.

And IMO, keeping the base is more a stupid decision than a pragmatic one. Even with my most pragmatic Shepard I've never kept the base.

Yannkee, it would be easier to take you seriously if you actually brought arguments for your opinion instead of re-stating it ad infinitum. But of course, that would mean recognizing evidence that disagrees with your preconceptions.

Please, can you tell me exactly how "This feels like a betrayal" is *not* an emotional, totally non-pragmatic argument for destroying the base? Can you tell me how exactly we can *not* see that expression as anything but Miranda losing her pragmatism  - or lazy writing? If she can make a decision for such a non-pragmatic reason in the one place where it's least appropriate to not take a rational stance and take strategic concerns into consideration, how can we *not* expect decisions like that to pop up more often in future? How can we, seeing such a "reasoning" at the very end of the game, *not* suspect that her character might be Paragonized and chickified?

For once, I would like to hear arguments instead of assertions. If you can't bring them, this will be nothing but a "yes" and "no" shouting match." You say it's your opinion as if all opinions deserved respect, but opinions not grounded in evidence are nothing but belief, and while that's OK for you alone, as long as you don't even make an attempt to demonstrate the validity of your claims, I am not obliged to take them seriously.

Regarding the Collector base decision  itself, please let's debate that in the relevant topic.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[tommyt_1994]

So I was conjuring up a myriad of points to make in regards to the post made by MsSihaKatieKrios on the last page, but then I read Ely and Ieldra's posts. I am not the 'savant with words' they are, but they hit the proverbial nail on the head. The Miranda fans in this corner (Ieldra, jtav, Ely, fongiel, etc) do not want her to be a "one dimensional b*tch". Wanting her to stay on the same level as Shepard and keep her emotions from influencing her actions in the field while still warming up to her emotions in private does not equal "one dimensional b*tch".

Putting words in peoples' mouths also isn't the smartest thing to do in one's first post, as well as attacking another character. That shines a bad light on all of us.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[jtav]

What Ieldra and Elyvern said. I love the end of her loyalty mission. I love "So don't die!" But the same woman also told you not to send an escort back with the crew. I want both aspects of her personality to remain present in ME3. I want her to continue to be competent and not set up as someone who needs Shepard. She has her issues, but she is not paralyzed by them. I want this to continue.



As for her sexual experience, I have always maintained two things. One: sex is a fundamentally healthy, positive thing for her. She likes it. She doesn't necessarily need or want this to be coupled with a romantic relationship because emotional intimacy is harder for her. She still has high standards and she is very careful, but she has recreational sex. This isn't a bad thing. I like that the game presents her as someone who knows what she wants and how to get it. I like that she takes the initiative in her romance scene. I like that she's permitted to have slightly unconventional tastes. Most of all, I like that there no attempt to tie her attitude toward sex to any trauma in her past. The other thing I've said is that she has (rarely) used sex on jobs. BW did call her a femme fatale.



I've also speculated she's enjoys certain practices that make Ieldra uncomfortable, but that's neither here nor there.

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
As mentioned in my previous post, I question the notion that wanting to destroy the base means that she's definitely no longer pragmatic.

There is no relation of cause and effect between Miranda supporting the destruction of the base (with her reasons) and Miranda losing all her pragmatism.

And IMO, keeping the base is more a stupid decision than a pragmatic one. Even with my most pragmatic Shepard I've never kept the base.

Yannkee, it would be easier to take you seriously if you actually brought arguments for your opinion instead of re-stating it ad infinitum. But of course, that would mean recognizing evidence that disagrees with your preconceptions.

Please, can you tell me exactly now "This feels like a betrayal" is *not* an emotional, totally non-pragmatic argument for destroying the base? Can you tell me how exactly we can not see that expression as anything but Miranda losing her pragmaticsm  - or lazy writing? If she can make a decision for such a non-pragmatic reason in the one place where it's least appropriate to not take a rational stance and take strategic concerns into consideration, how can we not expect decisions like that to pop up more often in future? How can we, seeing such a "reasoning" at the very end of the game, not suspect that her character might be Paragonized and chickified?

For once, I would like to hear arguments instead of assertions. If you can't bring them, this will be nothing but a "yes" and "no" shouting match." You say it's your opinion as if all opinions deserved respect, but opinions not grounded in evidence are nothing but belief, and while that's OK for you alone, as long as you don't even make an attempt to demonstrate the validity of your claims, I am not obliged to take them seriously.

Regarding the Collector base decision  itself, please let's debate that in the relevant topic.

No I won't start a debate about the collector base decision here, and not with you. It's not the place. I've already read the arguments of the people who support the decision to keep the base in the other threads, and I completely disagree.

I was responding to Xilizhra's question. And my respond is clear : taking one decision based on her emotion doesn't make lose ALL her pragmatism and transform her in a paragon. Like I said, I have Shepards who took many pragmatic decisions in ME1 & ME2, all of them chose to destroy the base, and it doesn't transform them into Paragon. But the real problem (I don't know how many times I will have to say it) is that we don't have the same opinion about Miranda personality and morality . I think Miranda can, most of the time, take pragmatic decisions, and sometimes she can show her softer / more emotional side (and not only in private) .
And even if the writers decide to make Miranda even less pragmatic in ME3, it won't change my opinion about the character. To me, pragmatism is not what define her the most. She can lose some pragmatism and remain the same competent, strong and intelligent woman.

Modifié par Yannkee, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:41 .

[tommyt_1994]

It's not that I don't want her showing any kind of emotion around others, hell she shows emotion at Pragia. What I don't want is for those emotions to affect her decision making or competence.

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...
I was responding to Xilizhra's question. And my respond is clear : taking one decision based on her emotion doesn't make lose ALL her pragmatism and transform her in a paragon.

No, of course not, but if the statement in question ("This feels like a betrayal") is made (a) at the very end of the game, and ( it affects the single decision in the game where it is most important to think it through, then that single instance of a non-pragmatic reasoning has weight beyond being simply "one instance out of many. 

But the real problem (I don't know how many times I will have to say it) is that we don't have the same opinion about Miranda personality and morality . I think Miranda can, most of the time, take pragmatic decisions, and sometimes she can show her softer / more emotional side (and not only in private).

She does that, for instance at the end of her loyalty mission. It's completely appropriate and I love that scene. I almost always tell her to speak with Oriana as well. I do not object to her *feeling* "this feels like a betrayal" at the Collector base, I only object to that emotion having a decisive effect on her recommendation. Wherever you want the CB decision to go, I say it's stupid - understandably human perhaps, but stupid nonetheless - to make it based on emotion or intuitive morality. And so would Miranda say.  

Edit:
Also, what tommyt said. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Would making her closer to the Paragon end of the scale also count as chickification? The latter would be a legitimate problem; the former, I believe, is not.

[Caihn]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

It's not that I don't want her showing any kind of emotion around others, hell she shows emotion at Pragia. What I don't want is for those emotions to affect her decision making or competence.

To take pragmatic decisions, it's not being competent.
If you think that her decision to support the destruction of the base makes her incompetent, we'll never agree.

[tommyt_1994]

Yannkee wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

It's not that I don't want her showing any kind of emotion around others, hell she shows emotion at Pragia. What I don't want is for those emotions to affect her decision making or competence.

To take pragmatic decisions, it's not being competent.
If you think that her decision to support the destruction of the base makes her incompetent, we'll never agree.

Like Ieldra has said, it's not her reccommendation, it's the way she brings forth said reccommendation. She let's her emotions rule over her and make the decision for her when she says "This feels like a betrayal". That is something I do not want.  I've never said she was incompetent.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Would making her closer to the Paragon end of the scale also count as chickification? The latter would be a legitimate problem; the former, I believe, is not.

"Chickification" means losing her independence and competence. That would be a very big problem. Paragonization would also be a problem if taken too far, because it could mean to let emotions and intuitive morality determine strategic decisions. But then, it need not necessarily mean that. A problem with this is that Paragon and Renegade are poorly defined in the game, and "deontology vs. consequentialism" is only one dimension. 

Here's how I see Miranda according to my analysis of the Paragon/Renegade dimensions. Note that these are tendencies and not absolutes:
Morality: Deontology / Consequentialism. She doesn't go nearly as far as TIM, but she's definitely willing to sacrifice lives and violate others' rights for an important cause.
Philosophy: Idealism (guided by what should be) / Realism (guided by what is): Her goals are idealistic, but she'll rarely assume goodwill in others and trust them.
Leadership style: participative / authoritarian: She can be the latter, but she prefers to talk things through and to take other's opinions into account. She's too much the scientist for anything else.
Guiding principle: compassion / reason: She does have compassion, but if compassion and reason come into conflict, Miranda will tend to take the rational decision.
Persuasion style: conciliatory / assertive: She can be both, but tends to be uncompromising in her style - see the argument with Jack. To be conciliatory, she has to respect the person in question, and there aren't that many people in that category.
Attitude to crime: forbearing / implacable: I don't think she has a defined attitude to lawbreaking and crime, given that she breaks the law often enough and isn't a hypocrite.
Politics: multilateralist / nationalist. I don't think I need to explain this. Note that "nationalist" does not mean "racist".

What I wouldn't like is a strong change in the "morality" and "guiding principles" dimensions, because they define Miranda strongly. Again, note that these are not absolutes but tendencies. Miranda is intelligent enough to judge every situation separately.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[Elyvern]

Bravo, Ieldra! You explain it better than I ever could. Although I personally thinks her leadership style is more authoritarian than participative, maybe because her assertive persuasion style has a strong tendency to put people off from hearing her side of the story.

[OldMan91]

Like Ieldra has said, it's not her reccommendation, it's the way she brings forth said reccommendation. She let's her emotions rule over her and make the decision for her when she says "This feels like a betrayal". That is something I do not want. I've never said she was incompetent.

New to the Miranda character thread, but i'd like to point (my opinion of course) out that Miranda taking a decision based on "feelings" or "emotions" when it comes to the fate of the collector base isn't wrong. Remember that, while Miranda in general is pragmatic, it doesn't mean she can't be affected emotionally by what she's seen in the collector base. One of the colonists or shipmates (Kelly, Chakwas) is turned into DNA goo, a giant Reaper-human hybrid is being built and countless other horrors have occurred in the base. I'd be raising my eyebrow if she DIDN'T react emotionally, as that would make her less human and less believable.

There is a limit to how much a person can be stoic and pragmatic in the face of death and nightmarish horror. In Miranda's case, seeing what she saw there was enough to make her rethink just how useful it really is to keep the collector's base, knowing how many people have suffered. It DOES feel like a betrayal and I completely understand her for thinking that. To me it doesn't change how I see her. I highly doubt Bioware is going to overhaul her character and have her crying about her big manly Shepard, or anything like that, just because she's made one decision based on her feelings.

Hell, sometimes it is better to go with your feelings or principles rather than sheer pragmatism. You have to be pragmatic about your pragmatism. Or something.

Modifié par OldMan91, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:31 .

[jtav]

The problem is she more or less tells you to leave the surviving crew to their deaths right after she's seen the liquidification process. That would be the time for her to get emotional. Not later when nothing else has changed.

[Caihn]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

It's not that I don't want her showing any kind of emotion around others, hell she shows emotion at Pragia. What I don't want is for those emotions to affect her decision making or competence.

To take pragmatic decisions, it's not being competent.
If you think that her decision to support the destruction of the base makes her incompetent, we'll never agree.

Like Ieldra has said, it's not her reccommendation, it's the way she brings forth said reccommendation. She let's her emotions rule over her and make the decision for her when she says "This feels like a betrayal". That is something I do not want.  I've never said she was incompetent.

You've just said it before. You don't want that her emotions affect her decision making or her competence. And Ieldra have an even more extreme opinion : he said that Miranda taking this decision because of her emotions is stupid.

People like me, who doesn't think that Miranda's behavior during this scene is OOC, consider this kind of opinions insulting for the character. The Miranda who thinks that using anything from this base seems like a betrayal, is the real Miranda to me, and you can't ignore that a lot of things which have been said about this in this thread did hurt people who share my opinion.

I wish that every Miranda fans could discuss in the same thread about their favorite character. But our opinions about the character are too different. And this subject (like other controversial subjects) are discussed too many times in the thread and can't be ignored.

Modifié par Yannkee, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[Caihn]

OldMan91 wrote...

Like Ieldra has said, it's not her reccommendation, it's the way she brings forth said reccommendation. She let's her emotions rule over her and make the decision for her when she says "This feels like a betrayal". That is something I do not want. I've never said she was incompetent.

New to the Miranda character thread, but i'd like to point (my opinion of course) out that Miranda taking a decision based on "feelings" or "emotions" when it comes to the fate of the collector base isn't wrong. Remember that, while Miranda in general is pragmatic, it doesn't mean she can't be affected emotionally by what she's seen in the collector base. One of the colonists or shipmates (Kelly, Chakwas) is turned into DNA goo, a giant Reaper-human hybrid is being built and countless other horrors have occurred in the base. I'd be raising my eyebrow if she DIDN'T react emotionally, as that would make her less human and less believable.

There is a limit to how much a person can be stoic and pragmatic in the face of death and nightmarish horror. In Miranda's case, seeing what she saw there was enough to make her rethink just how useful it really is to keep the collector's base, knowing how many people have suffered. It DOES feel like a betrayal and I completely understand her for thinking that. To me it doesn't change how I see her. I highly doubt Bioware is going to overhaul her character and have her crying about her big manly Shepard, or anything like that, just because she's made one decision based on her feelings.

Hell, sometimes it is better to go with your feelings or principles rather than sheer pragmatism. You have to be pragmatic about your pragmatism. Or something.

QFT

[OldMan91]

jtav wrote...

The problem is she more or less tells you to leave the surviving crew to their deaths right after she's seen the liquidification process. That would be the time for her to get emotional. Not later when nothing else has changed.

Maybe she didn't know what TIM was planning. The idea was to defeat the collectors by destroying their base. That was the mission. Then suddenly TIM pops up saying, "Hey guys, don't destroy the collector base. It could be useful against the reapers". As you've said, Miranda was willing to sacrifice the crew before. I think she doesn't want those sacrifices to be dismissed or betrayed so quickly.

We all have a limit to how far we're willing to go. TIM is willing to "betray" the memory of those the collectors murdered and turned into DNA food (and those crew members who might have been sacrificed), while Miranda wasn't.

She says specifically in the scene we're referring to: "I'm not so sure. Seeing it firsthand... using anything from this base seems like a betrayal". So Miranda has seen the horrors of the collector's base. She doesn't like what she's seeing, but she still carries on the mission with the assumption that the base would be destroyed. It is a little shocking then to hear your boss, the guy who helped hide your sister (her only real family by that point), say that the base should be kept and studied.

Modifié par OldMan91, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:48 .

[Melra]

Yannkee wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

Like Ieldra has said, it's not her reccommendation, it's the way she brings forth said reccommendation. She let's her emotions rule over her and make the decision for her when she says "This feels like a betrayal". That is something I do not want. I've never said she was incompetent.

New to the Miranda character thread, but i'd like to point (my opinion of course) out that Miranda taking a decision based on "feelings" or "emotions" when it comes to the fate of the collector base isn't wrong. Remember that, while Miranda in general is pragmatic, it doesn't mean she can't be affected emotionally by what she's seen in the collector base. One of the colonists or shipmates (Kelly, Chakwas) is turned into DNA goo, a giant Reaper-human hybrid is being built and countless other horrors have occurred in the base. I'd be raising my eyebrow if she DIDN'T react emotionally, as that would make her less human and less believable.

There is a limit to how much a person can be stoic and pragmatic in the face of death and nightmarish horror. In Miranda's case, seeing what she saw there was enough to make her rethink just how useful it really is to keep the collector's base, knowing how many people have suffered. It DOES feel like a betrayal and I completely understand her for thinking that. To me it doesn't change how I see her. I highly doubt Bioware is going to overhaul her character and have her crying about her big manly Shepard, or anything like that, just because she's made one decision based on her feelings.

Hell, sometimes it is better to go with your feelings or principles rather than sheer pragmatism. You have to be pragmatic about your pragmatism. Or something.

QFT

Couldn't have said it better myself.