15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

OldMan91 wrote...

Like Ieldra has said, it's not her reccommendation, it's the way she brings forth said reccommendation. She let's her emotions rule over her and make the decision for her when she says "This feels like a betrayal". That is something I do not want. I've never said she was incompetent.

New to the Miranda character thread, but i'd like to point (my opinion of course) out that Miranda taking a decision based on "feelings" or "emotions" when it comes to the fate of the collector base isn't wrong. Remember that, while Miranda in general is pragmatic, it doesn't mean she can't be affected emotionally by what she's seen in the collector base. One of the colonists or shipmates (Kelly, Chakwas) is turned into DNA goo, a giant Reaper-human hybrid is being built and countless other horrors have occurred in the base. I'd be raising my eyebrow if she DIDN'T react emotionally, as that would make her less human and less believable.

As jtav said, the time to react emotionally would have been when the crew was freed, and the processing explained for the first time.
But I do think, in fact, that making the CB decision based on emotion is wrong. Our emotions are not made for that kind of decision. The possible strategic value of the base does not come into it when you make an emotional decision there, but it really should.

There is a limit to how much a person can be stoic and pragmatic in the face of death and nightmarish horror. In Miranda's case, seeing what she saw there was enough to make her rethink just how useful it really is to keep the collector's base, knowing how many people have suffered.

I don't expect her to feel nothing. I expect her to think things through nonetheless. It's what she was trained for, after all. If she can do that when freeing the crew, she should be able to do it later. And really, the reasoning is definitely not objectionable in any way: The people processed here are dead, nothing can be done for them anymore. Destroying the base will not bring them back. You can take some satisfaction from killing those responsible, but you don't need to destroy the base for that - that would be akin to destroying a gun for having killed someone. Dumb. The base could decide the future of the galaxy, concern for those already dead should take second place to that.

Hell, sometimes it is better to go with your feelings or principles rather than sheer pragmatism. You have to be pragmatic about your pragmatism. Or something.

Sometimes, perhaps. But not in a decision that can decide the fate of the known galaxy.

[Xilizhra]

Sometimes, perhaps. But not in a decision that can decide the fate of the known galaxy.

Unless of course the Renegade decision goes horribly wrong, as Renegade decisions are wont to do.

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

It's not that I don't want her showing any kind of emotion around others, hell she shows emotion at Pragia. What I don't want is for those emotions to affect her decision making or competence.

To take pragmatic decisions, it's not being competent.
If you think that her decision to support the destruction of the base makes her incompetent, we'll never agree.

Like Ieldra has said, it's not her reccommendation, it's the way she brings forth said reccommendation. She let's her emotions rule over her and make the decision for her when she says "This feels like a betrayal". That is something I do not want.  I've never said she was incompetent.

You've just said it before. You don't want that her emotions affect her decision making or her competence. And Ieldra have an even more extreme opinion : he said that Miranda taking this decision because of her emotions is stupid.

I stand by that. Let's suppose that destroying the base is the right decision. I would still say that the reason she gives for it is stupid. Even more, I say she would say that herself if we could ask her about it later. As OldMan91 says, it is understandably human, but stupid nonetheless. I do not think Miranda would act that way, so I think her reasoning is OOC.

You say that's an insult to her character. It's exactly because I do *not* want to insult her character that I say it's OOC. The only alternative would be to say that Miranda does act stupid here - that would be an insult.

BTW, I have seen a lot of people complaining about exactly that who aren't her fans. Which tells me that this is a concern shared by many.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sometimes, perhaps. But not in a decision that can decide the fate of the known galaxy.

Unless of course the Renegade decision goes horribly wrong, as Renegade decisions are wont to do.

That's metagaming and doesn't count for this debate. Apart from that, if she'd given an understandable reason like the one I posted on the previous page, like:

"I know how things work in Cerberus. Most of the military cells - and thats where the base will end up with - aren't remotely careful enough with unknown technology. If they get this base, our chances against the Reapers will be lessened,"

then I wouldn't have said anything. I wouldn't have agreed, but I would have respected her opinion. And it would have made destroying the base so much easier for me in those games where I wanted to. I would have been able to say "Miranda knows what she says, she's the Cerberus expert here" and take her recommendation. I can't take a recommendation based on "this feels like a betrayal".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:27 .

[OldMan91]

As jtav said, the time to react emotionally would have been when the crew was freed, and the processing explained for the first time.
But I do think, in fact, that making the CB decision based on emotion is wrong. Our emotions are not made for that kind of decision. The possible strategic value of the base does not come into it when you make an emotional decision there, but it really should.

I posted a reply to jtav's comment before, so i'm not going to copy and paste what I said. I do agree that emotion alone isn't a good way to make a decision, but remember that it's a tense moment. You're running out of time. You've battled through countless collectors and your adrenaline is high. It's likely she has thought it through rationally, but it also comes as a shock to her that TIM wants to keep the Collector's Base.

I don't expect her to feel nothing. I expect her to think things through nonetheless. It's what she was trained for, after all. If she can do that when freeing the crew, she should be able to do it later. And really, the reasoning is definitely not objectionable in any way: The people processed here are dead, nothing can be done for them anymore. Destroying the base will not bring them back. You can take some satisfaction from killing those responsible, but you don't need to destroy the base for that - that would be akin to destroying a gun for having killed someone. Dumb. The base could decide the future of the galaxy, concern for those already dead should take second place to that.

She has training, yes. Training alone though can't prepare you for everything. The CB experience is something she's never seen before. For the most part she remains cool, but keeping the Collector Base? That's the last straw in her mind. Sure, the people can't be brought back. But she can at least ensure no one ever does something like that again. She can ensure no more human lives are sacrificed. And in a tense moment, with Shepard making the decision (and potentially being in love with him), she decides that the base is not worth it.

This, to me, does not sound like chickification. It sounds like an adult human being responding to a difficult situation which requires questioning things she thought were always true. To me, it strengthens her character rather than demean it. In fact, she displays traits completely opposite to chickification. She makes an independent decision to NOT destroy the base. She decides NOT to rely on TIM and do what she thinks is right. This time, she's not going to be pragmatic. This is the line she draws. As EU Commissioner Viviane Reding said, "Enough is enough".

And after all, don't we all draw a line somewhere? You may not, in this situation. But Miranda does, and she makes that decision alone. Even when Shepard decides to not destroy the base, she still thinks it was wrong not to destroy it. You can't be more independent thinking than that.

Modifié par OldMan91, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:27 .

[tommyt_1994]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sometimes, perhaps. But not in a decision that can decide the fate of the known galaxy.

Unless of course the Renegade decision goes horribly wrong, as Renegade decisions are wont to do.

That's metagaming and doesn't count for this debate. Apart from that, if she'd given an understandable reason like the one I posted on the previous page, like:

"I know how things work in Cerberus. Most of the military cells - and thats where the base will end up with - aren't remotely careful enough with unknown technology. If they get this base, our chances against the Reapers will be lessened,"

then I wouldn't have said anything. I wouldn't have agreed, but I would have respected her opinion. And it would have made destroying the base so much easier for me in those games where I wanted to....

QFT, Ieldra. Isn't it even possible to avoid the line altogether?

[Ieldra]

Yes, it is possible to avoid the line by taking the middle option. But unfortunately, I know it exists.

[tommyt_1994]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, it is possible to avoid the line by taking the middle option. But unfortunately, I know it exists.

Well you can always turn a blind eye and just put your fingers in your ears and scream "LALALALA, I'm not listening!"

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:35 .

[jtav]

Sounds like me and certain romance lines. *grumbles*



I'm going to go work on Persistence. I assume excerpts are appreciated? Ironically, she gets pretty emotional in this chapter.

[Ryzaki]

I fail to see how Shepard realizing nearly everytime Cerberus got it's hand on something big it blows up spectacularly to be metagaming.

[tommyt_1994]

jtav wrote...

Sounds like me and certain romance lines. *grumbles*

I'm going to go work on Persistence. I assume excerpts are appreciated? Ironically, she gets pretty emotional in this chapter.

Definitely, jtav. Speaking of which I think you posted a chapter I haven't read yet. I love Miranda and Liara. Favorite two characters in the series. I have problems with both of their romances though, but same goes for every romance lol.

[Ieldra]

OldMan91 wrote...
This, to me, does not sound like chickification.

No, of course not. But it's the part where she loses her pragmatism, which was the other thing I and some others here wouldn't like.

And after all, don't we all draw a line somewhere? You may not, in this situation. But Miranda does, and she makes that decision alone. Even when Shepard decides to not destroy the base, she still thinks it was wrong not to destroy it. You can't be more independent thinking than that.

Everyone draws the line somewhere, yes. But really, keeping the base is not such a horrible act itself that it merits re-thinking your loyalties. The feeling is based purely on damage that is already done. It's completely irrational. Concern for what TIM would do with it would perhaps merit it, but she doesn't say that. 

Besides, you made it sound as if her pragmatism was never her own but rather TIMs - I disagree.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:48 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Sounds like me and certain romance lines. *grumbles*

Yeah. I passionately hate that line...

I'm going to go work on Persistence. I assume excerpts are appreciated? Ironically, she gets pretty emotional in this chapter.

So much for "you all want Miranda to be a cold-hearted b*tch". I hope that accusation has been soundly refuted.

Yes, I would love an excerpt.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...

I fail to see how Shepard realizing nearly everytime Cerberus got it's hand on something big it blows up spectacularly to be metagaming.

Xilizrha spoke of Renegade decisions, not of Cerberus-related decisions. And I did say that if Miranda based her recommendation to destroy the base on the reasoning (I quote this yet again) "I know how things work in Cerberus. Most of the military cells - and thats where the base will end up with - aren't remotely careful enough with unknown technology. If they get this base, our chances against the Reapers will be lessened," that I would've had no issue with it and accepted it as the recommendation of a competent expert in matters Cerberus. You know, I would have *loved* to hear that from her - a really good argument I could've actually followed without feeling stupid. In fact, had she said that, it would have been hard to keep the base, exactly because I respect Miranda's competence.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[Xilizhra]

What's this certain romance line? "The priiiize?"

[Caihn]

OldMan91 wrote...

She has training, yes. Training alone though can't prepare you for everything. The CB experience is something she's never seen before. For the most part she remains cool, but keeping the Collector Base? That's the last straw in her mind. Sure, the people can't be brought back. But she can at least ensure no one ever does something like that again. She can ensure no more human lives are sacrificed. And in a tense moment, with Shepard making the decision (and potentially being in love with him), she decides that the base is not worth it.

This, to me, does not sound like chickification. It sounds like an adult human being responding to a difficult situation which requires questioning things she thought were always true. To me, it strengthens her character rather than demean it. In fact, she displays traits completely opposite to chickification. She makes an independent decision to NOT destroy the base. She decides NOT to rely on TIM and do what she thinks is right. This time, she's not going to be pragmatic. This is the line she draws. As EU Commissioner Viviane Reding said, "Enough is enough".

And after all, don't we all draw a line somewhere? You may not, in this situation. But Miranda does, and she makes that decision alone. Even when Shepard decides to not destroy the base, she still thinks it was wrong not to destroy it. You can't be more independent thinking than that.

I agree.

And it's one of my favorite Miri moment after the romance scenes and discussions.
I have recorded the whole scene, and I watch it time to time.

[jtav]

Xilizhra wrote...

What's this certain romance line? "The priiiize?"

"I want everyone to know that you're mine." It's her romance conflict dialogue. Not that that's the only problem I have with her romance, but it's annoying.

[OldMan91]

No, of course not. But it's the part where she loses her pragmatism, which was the other thing I and some others here wouldn't like.

I understand, but I wouldn't claim that she is "cheapened" by what she does. I would draw a parallel with Liara. Before the DLC, there were plenty of Liara fans who didn't like the way she had changed from ME1 to ME2 and there were those who didn't mind it. The comic that was released explaining why she had changed only helped to fuel both sides to debate it further. Eventually though most Liara fans went along with the idea that she's not static character and events in her life can change her for better or worse. Some people start out being a bit idealistic or innocent and eventually become realists or cynical. I would argue that the opposite can happen too. This is the case for Miranda, and it's where I see her character development is going. Such a change doesn't make her a weaker or inconsistent character. Rather it shows that, like everyone, she's a human being with her own flaws and traits. It makes her less one dimensional and more human.

Everyone draws the line somewhere, yes. But really, keeping the base is not such a horrible act itself that it merits re-thinking your loyalties. The feeling is based purely on damage that is already done. It's completely irrational. Concern for what TIM would do with it would perhaps merit it, but she doesn't say that.

This is, I think, where we have a difference of opinion and we're not very likely to convince each other. Your assumption is that keeping the base is not a bad thing, and therefore it is out of character for Miranda to be against such the idea of destroying the CB. You believe that because Miranda has previously made rational choices that she would do the same thing again, given different circumstances. I'd argue that people don't look at everything rationally and that, in a tense situation, having seen the cruelties inflicted upon fellow humans, she is likely to react to the news of keeping the collector base irrationally, despite having made a rational choices most of the time.

All I can say though is that, while we're not going to convince each other, I can definitely understand your side on this. We can proceed to admire Miranda for who she is and what she does.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I fail to see how Shepard realizing nearly everytime Cerberus got it's hand on something big it blows up spectacularly to be metagaming.

Xilizrha spoke of Renegade decisions, not of Cerberus-related decisions. And I did say that if Miranda based her recommendation to destroy the base on the reasoning (I quote this yet again) "I know how things work in Cerberus. Most of the military cells - and thats where the base will end up with - aren't remotely careful enough with unknown technology. If they get this base, our chances against the Reapers will be lessened," that I would've had no issue with it and accepted it as the recommendation of a competent expert in matters Cerberus. You know, I would have *loved* to hear that from her - a really good argument I could've actually followed without feeling stupid. In fact, had she said that, it would have been hard to keep the base, exactly because I respect Miranda's competence.

Oh I see.

Though honestly a lot of renegade decisions are pretty bleh too. I'm sad that Elnora was a renegade interrupt.

Paragons do listen and think you know BW. That volus had told us right before we left that every single eclipse member had to kill to earn her uniform. My paragon does listen and remember stuff like that. <_<

[jtav]

I've been watching the kiss on Youtube and find myself amused by it. Not sure why it doesn't work when I play it. I love that she can give back as good as she gets instead of being steamrolled and that she's an equal partner in the kiss. I'm actually rewatching the entire romance on Youtube and making notes on what I feel does and doesn't work and to see if there's anything I can steal for Persistence.

[Markinator_123]

I agree with Ieldra2. Miranda is completely out of character at the collector base. We are talking about the same woman who wanted implant Shepard with a control chip! A control chip! I find that way more morally abhorrent than keeping a dirty weapon (aka the collector base). It would be a shame if Bioware turns her into the ultimate paragon in the next game. It would just make me throw up.

[jtav]

I'm continuing working on Persistence and it got me thinking. Would you have liked the romance better or worse if Miranda and Shepard had begun a sexual relationship fairly early on, with serious emotional investment coming later? I think I would have.



Er, I think I just spoiled chapters 4 and 5 there.

[enayasoul]

jtav wrote...

I'm continuing working on Persistence and it got me thinking. Would you have liked the romance better or worse if Miranda and Shepard had begun a sexual relationship fairly early on, with serious emotional investment coming later? I think I would have.

Er, I think I just spoiled chapters 4 and 5 there.

I would like to see how they relate to each other... sexually and just being together!   I hope we see some of that in ME3 but I doubt they will show anything sexual... those *chickens*  he he.  At least we have our fics. 

I just finished watching the first 4 episodes of season three of Chuck.... *daydreams* 

 

A few worthy quotes from Sarah Walker...  

"I acted impulsively, I don't usually do that."  (something like that)

"You need to learn to ignore your emotions.  Spies do not having feelings. Feeling get you killed.  You need to bury them in a place deep inside."

Modifié par enayasoul, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:51 .

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Please, where did you get that impression? I and others never said anything like that. I do not think anyone here wants that. It's only that some people get that impression whenever anyone talks easily about sex. I say - and feel in a fundamental way - that sex is not a problem, and my arguments and the way I respond to others are informed by that. Whenever someone says "I say Miranda's sexual experiences are very limited", I hear a hidden prude talking, and whenever I say she is sexually experienced (that is the phrasing I use most of the time), people like Yannkee hear - well, I really don't know what they hear, but it's definitely more than I want to say. Miranda has high standards for her partners, that limits her possible encounters. She also has no problem with sex, that may increase her possible encounters. Exactly where she lands, really, I don't care. We don't know, and every one of us has his own image. But I won't let Miranda be re-defined by prudes.

Just because someone thinks that Miranda has less sex that you think doesn't make them prudes. And what I gathered from your posts is, well, that. Anyways, your viewpoint would be true...if Miranda didn't have impossibly high standards, didn't have security concerns to hold her back, and she wasn't a half galaxy away from the nearest sexual partner most of the time.