15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm continuing working on Persistence and it got me thinking. Would you have liked the romance better or worse if Miranda and Shepard had begun a sexual relationship fairly early on, with serious emotional investment coming later? I think I would have.

I have no strong preference for either. Normally, I would say it would have made sense, but having a sexual encounter relatively close to Shepard's waking up from Miranda's operating table? I don't like the associations invoked by that image. The same, of course, doesn't apply to Liara, though the mind-meld would make separating these two aspects of a relationship difficult. 

[Ryzaki]

This sort of makes me sad. We're supposed to be uniting over our love for Miri instead we're tearing each other apart.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Elyvern wrote...
Welcome to the forum! It's always good to see new faces here.

As to your assertions, I can only shake my head over what you've extracted from your months of reading posts here, and the way you sum up desires of one camp wanting her b*itchy and one-dimensional, and how the onus of the blame falls on me and jtav because we're women. It's not in my place to speak for anyone's beliefs, but I'm just boggled at how you put words into my mouth. I never said that other people are "talifying" Miranda. I make it a point never to make comparisons between characters or their fanbases.

I'm also boggled at how you selectively ignored other things I say and then blow up certain topics. With regards to Miranda's emotional side, she's already getting more comfortable with her emotions. Something like this has been building up throughout the game. I like the fact that she changes and has one of the biggest potential to change of all the characters in ME2. By all means, she can be more empathic and friendly to people, and I'd imagine that for any sort of relationship progress to occur, she'd need to open up more to Shepard as well, so no problems there. The issue is not so much to do with her emotional expression, but the idea that she cannot be pragmatic once she softens up. but as LesEnfantsTerribles has pointed out just a few pages back, these are seperate aspects of her character and can work in conjuncture. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Except at the Collector's base, her words make it sound like Bioware intends both to be mutually exclusive. Saying things like using the base feels like a betrayal suggests that she has so much empathy for the victims and is so morally outraged at the idea that she is willing to risk the chance of sacrificing the all sapient life in the galaxy to obtain emotional vindication and ease her moral conscience. How does this allow her to retain her efficiency at work, to use your words, if may I ask? That she would probably feel more empathic for the suffering of the colonists is understandable, that she would be ambivalent towards giving the base to TIM and Cerberus (after we mentally conjure scenarios on how her loyalty to them has eroded) can also be arrived at eventually. It's the one-or-the-other mentality that I can't accept. I can't accept that the price for her being emotional requires her to forsake all rationality and all sense of self preservation. Why would I want an XO who is going to encourage me to destroy a strategic resource because she feels it's morally wrong? She should be the one to point out all sides of the argument and remind me morals aren't going to win the war against the Reapers.


I hope you can see from my argument that whatever "weakness" you're positing has nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman, so please don't pull that card out like it's a train ticket you use everyday. But to return the ball to your court, you're also forgetting that there are people that play as femshep and appreciate Miranda as a friend. How does your scenario fit in for them? Because there wouldn't be cabin time between her and femshep, because femshep arguably has far less influence on her character change than a maleshep that romances her, her character change for maleshep is thus perfectly justfiable? Can you see where I'm going? 

Well, maybe I read your posts the wrong way, but it sure smelled like you were deathly afraid of her showing emotions because it'd make Miri look weak to me. Sure, I want Miri to retain her efficiency and her excellence at her job, but I also want her to soften up emotionally WITHOUT depending TOO MUCH emotionally on Shepard.
 Otherwise she'd just be another forgettable ice-queen with little to no character development. Also, letting emotions cloud her judgements on the rare occasion is enhancing her character, not destroying it as you believe, because to be emotional is to be human. If she didn't let emotions get in the way every blue moon, she'd simply be a Mary Sue, which I'm sure none of us want. Even Superwoman had displays of emotion every now and then.

As for the romance and friendship...well it's only fair that Miranda's character develop further when romanced than being befriended. Otheriwse there are no 'benefits' to romancing her. Unfortunately, Bioware hashed it badly (no surprise there) for those who wish to befriend her, so I go Gibbed the whole time the femShep. If only manShep could actually to a decent job...

I've read your fanfic, and while I like the descriptions of the Reaper War and the nano-tech indoctrination, I feel that you've mischaracterised Miranda in quite a few places. When she interacts with Shepard, it feels like they're nothing more than roomates, and it doesn't feel like a romanced Miranda at all. Also, you made her into something like Tali when she was about to get it on with Shepard. Miranda's a confident woman who knows what she wants, and what she wants, she gets. But you wrote her as a flustered teenager who was flapping about, going 'yes' then 'no and she didn't quite know what she wanted. Also, your Miranda came off as a bit...robotic, and sorely lacked emotions. That's all my opinion anyways.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

jtav wrote...
I'm continuing working on Persistence and it got me thinking. Would you have liked the romance better or worse if Miranda and Shepard had begun a sexual relationship fairly early on, with serious emotional investment coming later? I think I would have.

I don't mind earlier at all. Too early is a bit...eyebrow raising. I think after all of Omega's pre-Horizion assignments are completed (assuming you did Omega first, of course) is a good start time.

[Ieldra]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Please, where did you get that impression? I and others never said anything like that. I do not think anyone here wants that. It's only that some people get that impression whenever anyone talks easily about sex. I say - and feel in a fundamental way - that sex is not a problem, and my arguments and the way I respond to others are informed by that. Whenever someone says "I say Miranda's sexual experiences are very limited", I hear a hidden prude talking, and whenever I say she is sexually experienced (that is the phrasing I use most of the time), people like Yannkee hear - well, I really don't know what they hear, but it's definitely more than I want to say. Miranda has high standards for her partners, that limits her possible encounters. She also has no problem with sex, that may increase her possible encounters. Exactly where she lands, really, I don't care. We don't know, and every one of us has his own image. But I won't let Miranda be re-defined by prudes.

Just because someone thinks that Miranda has less sex that you think doesn't make them prudes.

If that amounts to "no sex but what we cannot avoid to admit because it's in the game", then yes, it does make them prudes. Miranda is a 35-year-old woman who practically oozes sexuality, in that too-blatant way that I quite agree is much too obtrusive. To say she's not had any sex but that one instance from the iPartners date - or even limit her to a handful of encounters in 20 years or so, is preposterous. I prefer to say she is "sexually experienced" because that term is widely open to interpretation, so YMMV in all the details and I'm OK with that, but to outright deny it is wishful thinking.

And what I gathered from your posts is, well, that. Anyways, your viewpoint would be true...if Miranda didn't have impossibly high standards, didn't have security concerns to hold her back, and she wasn't a half galaxy away from the nearest sexual partner most of the time.

I'm beginning to get quite allergic to the way people keep re-iterating she has "impossibly high standards" to justify their opinion that she's had almost no sex. Apparently, a half dozen interviews at iPartners was enough for her to find someone she could accept. That's quite a bit away from "impossible". BTW, a healthy sex life does not default to "almost no sex" however some people would want you to believe that. 
I agree that she's probably not had much, if any, opportunity for the two years she was working on Shepard. But in general, may I point you to the fact that Miranda is an operative with, canonically, an extensive net of contacts all over the galaxy. Which means, she's been in contact with people regularly. You can't tell me an encounter doesn't go further than exchanging information here and how. Security concerns would not necessarily hold her back - she'd have enough control over the situaition to not let any information slip, especially if she's not emotionally involved.
Please note that I do not say she's "continually on the hunt", as you decided to misinterpret what I've been saying, but she'll take opportunities that present themselves to her. We are agreed that doesn't happen every day, nor would she want it to. I explicitly do not want to post any numbers because I think that's silly, and ambiguous phrasing is more likely to keep everyone's image intact. 

So, do you disagree that the phrase  "sexually experienced" applies to Miranda? If yes, then why? And why the hell would it bother you?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:09 .

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm continuing working on Persistence and it got me thinking. Would you have liked the romance better or worse if Miranda and Shepard had begun a sexual relationship fairly early on, with serious emotional investment coming later? I think I would have.

Er, I think I just spoiled chapters 4 and 5 there.

I would like to see how they relate to each other... sexually and just being together!   I hope we see some of that in ME3 but I doubt they will show anything sexual... those *chickens*  he he.  At least we have our fics.

I think jtav was alluding to her Miranda/Liara pairing... As I understand, in the scenario of  "Persistence of Memory", Shepard is not interested.

A few worthy quotes from Sarah Walker...  

"I acted impulsively, I don't usually do that."  (something like that)

"You need to learn to ignore your emotions.  Spies do not having feelings. Feeling get you killed.  You need to bury them in a place deep inside."

If that isn't the most apt set of quotes for the "great Miranda debate", as I'm tempted to call it.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...
This sort of makes me sad. We're supposed to be uniting over our love for Miri instead we're tearing each other apart.

Yes, it is. It's also uinderstandable. Miranda has the widest range of possible paths for character development of all ME2 characters, and everyone of us fears that ME3 will make someone of her (s)he won't be able to like any more - as it would be for me if Miranda would come to make or recommend non-pragmatic decisions regularly.

Miranda is awesome. I think we *are* all united in that and we're also united in our wish that she will continue to be awesome.

[snfonseka]

Image Time !

[t3HPrO]

@Ieldra2

Nobody ever said that Miranda never had any sex aside from iPartners. That would be bullcrap, an downright stupid. In fact the general idea is that Miranda is experienced, but you're trumpeting her to be VERY sexually experienced, and that's what's raising a few eyebrows and hackles. Also, note that you're not just projecting her as a sexually active woman, your projections are actually bordering on promiscuous. The way you try to argue your case is actually starting to make her look slightly promiscuous.

[Ieldra]

This is about Elyvern's fanfic Degrees of Inheritance.

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...
I've read your fanfic, and while I like the descriptions of the Reaper War and the nano-tech indoctrination, I feel that you've mischaracterised Miranda in quite a few places. When she interacts with Shepard, it feels like they're nothing more than roomates, and it doesn't feel like a romanced Miranda at all.

They have a somewhat uneasy companionship there, because this is the first time they've been together with no obligations to some mission or other. This feels extremely realistic to me. They're drawn to each other, but neither doesn't quite know what to do with that attraction in everyday life. Elyvern's Shepard feels he's made for war and doesn't know what to do with himself out of it. It's also very much clear that their relationship hasn't quite matured into love yet. Both want that, but it isn't as easy for people like them. I think this is all a very fine example that love doesn't make things simple. "Love overcomes all odds" is a stereotype, and I'm very glad this fanfic doesn't subscribe to it.

Also, you made her into something like Tali when she was about to get it on with Shepard. Miranda's a confident woman who knows what she wants, and what she wants, she gets. But you wrote her as a flustered teenager who was flapping about, going 'yes' then 'no and she didn't quite know what she wanted. Also, your Miranda came off as a bit...robotic, and sorely lacked emotions.

I can only shake my head at this. Didn't you realize, perchance, that Miranda drawing back was for fear she'd contaminate Shepard with the indoctrination nanites in her body? In this scene she was almost overcome by her desire, and that would have endangered Shepard. It's such a heartbreaking scene, really, even though you don't realize it until further down in the chapter. And you call her "robotic".
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Ieldra]

snfonseka wrote...
Image Time !

I like this picture.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 10:48 .

[Ieldra]

t3HPrO wrote...
@Ieldra2
Nobody ever said that Miranda never had any sex aside from iPartners. That would be bullcrap, an downright stupid. In fact the general idea is that Miranda is experienced, but you're trumpeting her to be VERY sexually experienced, and that's what's raising a few eyebrows and hackles. Also, note that you're not just projecting her as a sexually active woman, your projections are actually bordering on promiscuous. The way you try to argue your case is actually starting to make her look slightly promiscuous.

I'm not doing any trumpeting, nor can I see anything of what you're accusing me of in my posts. I don't know what you're hearing when you read my posts, but it's not what I wrote. Do you know that that there is no sharp distinction between "experienced" and "promiscous" except the negative connotation? One person's "experienced" is another's "promiscous", that's why I stick to vague phrasing and a term that doesn't have negative connotations. It's you who put the negative terms in. I never said that, nor did I mean it, nor do I think my arguments can be misread that way without being prejudiced. For me everything I wrote was an expression of Miranda having a healthy sex life.

If you want to continue, I would like to know exactly what in my last post made you get that impression.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 11:36 .

[t3HPrO]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm not doing any trumpeting, nor can I see anything of what you're accusing me of in my posts. I don't know what you're hearing when you read my posts, but it's not what I wrote. Do you know that that there is no sharp distinction between "experienced" and "promiscous" except the negative connotation? One person's "experienced" is another's "promiscous", that's why I stick to vague phrasing and a term that doesn't have negative connotations. It's you who put the negative terms in. I never said that, nor did I mean it, nor do I think my arguments can be misread that way without being prejudiced. For me everything I wrote was an expression of Miranda having a healthy sex life.

If you want to continue, I would like to know exactly what in my last post made you get that impression.

You kept repeating that Miranda is experienced like a broken ipod in many of your posts, leading us to think that you were trying to say that she has lots of experience due to her sleeping around often. Yes, to you it may sound like she has a normal sex life because you as the writer know what you're trying to say, but for the rest of us, we don't know that, so we interpreted it as you saying she sleeps around. To the rest of us reading the post, your posts make her sound...slightly promiscuous. It sounds like a slightly excessive sex life. It's not that we're prudes (I don't deny that Miranda had a couple dozen sexual encounters over approx. 18 years), maybe it's just that you're very liberal. And calling people prudes just because they don't agree with your definition of a healthy sex life is rather pointless, offensive and somewhat childish. It's like calling someone else a moron just because they didn't agree with you that an apple was sweet.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Ieldra2 wrote...

This is about Elyvern's fanfic Degrees of Inheritance.

They have a somewhat uneasy companionship there, because this is the first time they've been together with no obligations to some mission or other. This feels extremely realistic to me. They're drawn to each other, but neither doesn't quite know what to do with that attraction in everyday life. Elyvern's Shepard feels he's made for war and doesn't know what to do with himself out of it. It's also very much clear that their relationship hasn't quite matured into love yet. Both want that, but it isn't as easy for people like them. I think this is all a very fine example that love doesn't make things simple. "Love overcomes all odds" is a stereotype, and I'm very glad this fanfic doesn't subscribe to it.

I can only shake my head at this. Didn't you realize, perchance, that Miranda drawing back was for fear she'd contaminate Shepard with the indoctrination nanites in her body? In this scene she was almost overcome by her desire, and that would have endangered Shepard. It's such a heartbreaking scene, really, even though you don't realize it until further down in the chapter. And you call her "robotic".
 

I had no issue with Elyvern's Shepard, but Miranda...and yes, I did realise Miranda was fearing that she'd contaminate Shepard. But there's another 'wait, what?' moment. Shepard, being one of those boarding Reapers to blow them up, would've undergone the same treatment Miranda guinea-pigged herself in order to avoid indoctrination. And would've thus been immune. Also, Miranda subjecting herself to the treatment is unlikely, as any self-respecting medical researcher would've gathered volunteers long before the cure/vaccine/etc. was anywhere near completion. For example, I signed myself up as a guinea pig for a contraceptive pill (not out in the market yet) trial FOUR months ago, and I'm going to take the test NEXT month. Apparently, it's procedure.

Also, a tough as nails couple blundering around their attraction is also cliche, unfortunately. While I didn't want the 'love overcomes all' thing, judging by Miranda's behavior post-collector base, she would've shown a lot more emotion to seeing Shepard again than just hugging each other. And for the record, it is love already even before you went through the Omega4 relay. As proven by Shepard's lines, as well as Miranda's, and Shep's disgusting rape face(ugh). I don't know about you, but their interactions seemed...robotic and forced, like someone was controlling them on puppet strings and they were reading off scripts. It's nothing special really. It's more courtesy than actual concern.

[Ieldra]

@t3HPrO:

Actually, I only started called people prudes on the previous page, and that because I'm fed up with people putting things into my mouth I didn't say - like a broken iPod. I wanted to illustrate how it feels to be continuously misrepresented and misinterpreted. I also note that this misrepresentation seems to always come from those people I often disagree with on other matters, and never from others, so how can I interpret that but as intentional misrepresentation? If this reads like I'm angry, be assured that you get only the barest minimum of what I really feel about that.

"Promiscous" is a buzzword used by social conservatives as a slight against everyone who disagrees with their values. Its use always ticks me off, since there are no objective standards for it, thus making it always a politically loaded slight. To misrepresent me as having said that Miranda has that attribute is an insult I do not take lightly, and I intentionally retaliated by using a similarly loaded term.

Note that the same applies to "excessive". What *is* excessive? I really couldn't say, it depends on cultural standards.

From what you said, it seems we aren't that far away from each other in our opinions about Miranda's sex life. Perhaps we can find an expression that encompasses both our opinions. Since "experienced" doesn't seem to do it for you, what would *you* prefer?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[t3HPrO]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@t3HPrO:

Actually, I only started called people prudes on the previous page, and that because I'm fed up with people putting things into my mouth I didn't say - like a broken iPod. I wanted to illustrate how it feels to be continuously misrepresented and misinterpreted. I also note that this misrepresentation seems to always come from those people I often disagree with on other matters, and never from others, so how can I interpret that but as intentional misrepresentation? If this reads like I'm angry, be assured that you get only the barest minimum of what I really feel about that.

"Promiscous" is a buzzword used by social conservatives as a slight against everyone who disagrees with their values. Its use always ticks me off, since there are no objective standards for it, thus making it always a politically loaded slight. To misrepresent me as having said that Miranda has that attribute is an insult I do not take lightly, and I intentionally retaliated by using a similarly loaded term.

Note that the same applies to "excessive". What *is* excessive? I really couldn't say, it depends on cultural standards.

From what you said, it seems we aren't that far away from each other in our opinions about Miranda's sex life. Perhaps we can find an expression that encompasses both our opinions. Since "experienced" doesn't seem to do it for you, what would *you* prefer?

Sexually experienced is fine by me, just don't try and elaborate. NOT. ONE. WORD. MORE. OR. I. KEEL. YOU. Capice?

[Ieldra]

@t3HPrO:

I don't know what it is about you. Here we have come to an agreement, and there could actually be some quiet about this issue, and what do you do? Follow it up with a threat.



I'll say what I want to say, when I want to say it, understand? I'm fed up with trying to be reasonable with you.

[Ieldra]

So, to get myself to calm down a bit....

[jtav]

"Experienced" is the value-neutral term. The only other words I can think of are "sl*t" and wh*re" which are blatantly derogatory and don't fit Miranda. And we should be able to talk about this like rational adults. Miranda has high standards, but they are not insurmountable standards. Shepard and Jacob both meet them at various times. She's going to run in to a higher than average number of people who are extremely attractive and/or skilled by the nature of her job. Security concerns can be minimized. All she required from the iPartners guy was that he not be an idiot, use bad pickup lines, and have a clean bill of health. What she gives only after serious consideration is emotional intimacy, not physical intimacy. The two are not necessarily linked for her. At the same time, she is not a nymphomaniac. She clearly has standards, and she seems to have borne the two years of celibacy caused by the Lazarus Project with good grace. I don't see anything controversial about this.



And, yes, I was referring to Persistence earlier. Shepard is very much not interested in Miranda. She and Miranda both have feelings for Liara, though this isn't a love triangle. The two of them will be barely able to stand each other.

[Ieldra]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
This is about Elyvern's fanfic Degrees of Inheritance.

I had no issue with Elyvern's Shepard, but Miranda...and yes, I did realise Miranda was fearing that she'd contaminate Shepard. But there's another 'wait, what?' moment. Shepard, being one of those boarding Reapers to blow them up, would've undergone the same treatment Miranda guinea-pigged herself in order to avoid indoctrination. And would've thus been immune. Also, Miranda subjecting herself to the treatment is unlikely, as any self-respecting medical researcher would've gathered volunteers long before the cure/vaccine/etc. was anywhere near completion. For example, I signed myself up as a guinea pig for a contraceptive pill (not out in the market yet) trial FOUR months ago, and I'm going to take the test NEXT month. Apparently, it's procedure.

(1) In this scenario, Shepard was the admiral in command of the fleets. as such, he would've had no part in the commando raids. At least, that's the way I read it.
(2) Miranda used herself as the test subject because of her accelerated healing. Even so, she barely survived it.
(3) It's wartime. In a war for the very survival of everything. On a remote space station cut off from almost everything. Forget procedure. Just....forget it.

Also, a tough as nails couple blundering around their attraction is also cliche, unfortunately. While I didn't want the 'love overcomes all' thing, judging by Miranda's behavior post-collector base, she would've shown a lot more emotion to seeing Shepard again than just hugging each other.

What can be more emotional than an instant, bonecrushing hug without any words immediately after eye contact? What did you expect? A flood of tears and endearments? Well, no cheese for me, I like the scene as it is. Also it has been five years with no contact, and that after nothing more to their relationship than what was going on in the game. I think a little hesitation is appropriate.

And for the record, it is love already even before you went through the Omega4 relay. As proven by Shepard's lines, as well as Miranda's, and Shep's disgusting rape face(ugh)

Actually, that's open to interpretation. While I always see it that way in my games, you can interpret their interactions as a relationship that won't last past the mission. I think long-term love is likely to develop a little slower than in the time we have in the game. And prolonged separation is likely to put a kink in it anyway.

I don't know about you, but their interactions seemed...robotic and forced, like someone was controlling them on puppet strings and they were reading off scripts. It's nothing special really. It's more courtesy than actual concern.

I do admit that the MIranda/Shepard interactions on New Canton are not as satisfying as the rest of the chapter. But to call them "robotic and forced" is not justified IMO. Interestingly, I have more difficulty getting into Elyvern's Shepard.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[jtav]

I don't think the romance is love yet. That takes time. And it's very easy to play Shepard as a cad who wasn't lying about trying to get her into bed. I believe Miranda has strong feelings for Shepard, but it's not love yet. Let's let them get to know each other a bit better in a situation where death isn't imminent.

[enayasoul]

jtav wrote...

I don't think the romance is love yet. That takes time. And it's very easy to play Shepard as a cad who wasn't lying about trying to get her into bed. I believe Miranda has strong feelings for Shepard, but it's not love yet. Let's let them get to know each other a bit better in a situation where death isn't imminent.

Indeed! 

I've been thinking a lot about what their pet peeves would be?  I'm mostly from the Maleshep viewpoint with romancing Miranda.

My male shep is pretty bad with joking around.  He's blunt and most times can't stand criminals...particularly Batarians for killing his parents, friends etc...  but is always willing to help the innocent.
And saying that line about getting her into bed.  He was a least honest about it.   He's tough on the battlefield, but can be quite soft and gentle alone.

Think Miranda would be grossed out if he starts eating like a pig, stuffing his face?

What could she do that would so annoy Shepard...! 

Modifié par enayasoul, 22 novembre 2010 - 03:24 .

[Axestone]

I think, this screenshot is not bad...

Modifié par Axestone, 22 novembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[jtav]

That's a fantastic screenshot.

[Xilizhra]

I've been thinking about it, and the whole scene at the Collector base has actually made me think of Miranda as more interesting than before. I have a feeling that her ME3 path, if any, is going to be that of... well, she personally probably wasn't evil enough to qualify as The Atoner, but now that she's seen a hint of Cerberus true darkness, she'll very likely be uncovering more of it along with Shepard, and try to make up for the time she spent serving them. It could conceivably end with her taking over the organization after removing TIM and, well, most of the rest of its members... though would this mean that we couldn't just destroy Cerberus if she survived the suicide mission? Decisions, decisions...