15168 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

I wouldn't mind if she felt the need to atone for her time with Cerberus, especially since she seems to now regard them as not advancing the cause of humanity. I would like her to still be a case of Good Is Not Nice though.

[enayasoul]

and how much knowledge would Miranda have on the Illusive man... if she wanted to get 'rid' of him.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
I've been thinking about it, and the whole scene at the Collector base has actually made me think of Miranda as more interesting than before. I have a feeling that her ME3 path, if any, is going to be that of... well, she personally probably wasn't evil enough to qualify as The Atoner, but now that she's seen a hint of Cerberus true darkness, she'll very likely be uncovering more of it along with Shepard, and try to make up for the time she spent serving them. It could conceivably end with her taking over the organization after removing TIM and, well, most of the rest of its members... though would this mean that we couldn't just destroy Cerberus if she survived the suicide mission? Decisions, decisions...

I would like her to take over Cerberus at the end, and keep its usefulness while curbing its excesses. I think someone like Miranda would be suited best to balance between the necessary evil such an organization must always incorporate and things that are best avoided. But I'd prefer that she did that because of her continued sense of obligation to humanity, not out of a need for personal atonement. I dislike atonement stories, and I feel that there isn't much she'd need to make up for. She hasn't done anything like TIM, anything like what we see on Pragia or Aite. The only thing she could blame herself for is her selective perception.

BTW, what will happen if we continue to work with Cerberus?

@LesEnfantsTerribles:
A good idea can't be repeated often enough

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 04:21 .

[jlb524]

enayasoul wrote...

and how much knowledge would Miranda have on the Illusive man... if she wanted to get 'rid' of him.

Well, I know Shepard has some info on TIM due to the SB dossiers.  I doubt Miranda would have ever had access to anything priviledge.  But who knows...even the smallest thing might be useful.

[BossumBuddy]

Or the biggest.

[jtav]

I'm quite fond of atonement stories, but Miranda's sins are those of blindness, not commission. She doesn't do much that's really horrible onscreen. I'm making her partly responsible for Overlord, but even that is a case of someone misusing her research.

[Ieldra]

^ I knew what you would say in advance (except the Overlord part).

I'm spending too much time in here....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Prudii Aden]

I'm very much in favour of Miranda's continued story being along Good is Not Nice - it's something that most of my Shepards go with. I guess you could also use it to describe Paragades(and maybe Renegons?)

[Ieldra]

Prudii Aden wrote...

I'm very much in favour of Miranda's continued story being along Good is Not Nice - it's something that most of my Shepards go with. I guess you could also use it to describe Paragades(and maybe Renegons?)

I'm also in favor of that. And Renegons could qualify, depending on what defines their Renegade aspect (see my breakdown for Miranda on page 380).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[Xilizhra]

Honestly, I can't say that Miranda is good. I'd peg her as lawful neutral, though by the end of the game, she may be changing.

[jtav]

At least I'm consistent? But Miranda doesn't fit an atonement arc because her blindness doesn't cause harm that we know . I've dealt with that twice, and I had to invent something. A redemption arc doesn't work if you've already taken the first big step before you discover you did something wrong.



Hopefully I deal with it better this time than I did when I made her responsible for Akuze. I'm trying to work square root recitations into Persistemce. Miranda has an eidetic memory, is a mathematical genius, and was medically abused by her father.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Honestly, I can't say that Miranda is good. I'd peg her as lawful neutral, though by the end of the game, she may be changing.

Can not *anything* be discussed without turning to morality, damn it? I don't think I've been on any forum so obsessed with this.

I'd rather discuss how she will advance humanity by her actions (or her existence, but that's another story I'll hopefully tell myself in my fanfics).

[Ieldra]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
I know it's likely that this has already been discussed, but do you guys feel that the chance exists that Mr. Lawson will be a minor villain in ME3? Or, is his sole purpose in the trilogy to flesh out Miranda's backstory, and also provide a plot hook for her loyalty mission?

Considering the fact that he was one of Cerberus' many benefactors, I think that he may enjoy some sort of significant plot role in the future.

We've discussed that some time ago. There was no consensus, but also no passionate disagreement. Personally, it would suit me best if he stayed an unnamed background figure. Then I could still pretend my fanfic universe is canon-compatible, since I did name him. I also think that not too much of Miranda's backstory should be canonically defined.

Is there a chance we'll get him? Not a significant one, I'd guess. I think Bioware won't elaborate too much on characters' backstories in ME3, unless it serves the main plot. 

[Elyvern]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

I've read your fanfic, and while I like the descriptions of the Reaper War and the nano-tech indoctrination, I feel that you've mischaracterised Miranda in quite a few places. When she interacts with Shepard, it feels like they're nothing more than roomates, and it doesn't feel like a romanced Miranda at all. Also, you made her into something like Tali when she was about to get it on with Shepard. Miranda's a confident woman who knows what she wants, and what she wants, she gets. But you wrote her as a flustered teenager who was flapping about, going 'yes' then 'no and she didn't quite know what she wanted. Also, your Miranda came off as a bit...robotic, and sorely lacked emotions. That's all my opinion anyways.

@Ieldra - Thanks for replying to a number of pertinent points while I was away.

@MsSihaKatieKrios - I keep getting the feeling you totally missed out on a number of points while reading my fic and then find alot of things incomprehensible because of it.  

Let me clarify: Miranda and Shepard haven't seen each other in years. This isn't the couple that we see at the end of ME2. They've both been through life and (near) death independent of each other. They walked different paths for 5 years with only the knowledge of each other for solace. In this war, their personal relationship took a backseat because they had to do what must be done. They're traumatised people, but struggling to hide it, struggling to become normal humans again. Against that backdrop, nothing can be normal. 

What is love for one person, when Shepard's hands is awashed with the blood of billions? Where was Shepard when Miranda broke down in depression after Mordin's death and saw the Reapers winning? There is actually a hint of suicide when Miranda injected herself with the nanites. She literally saw no other way out, she was at that low a point in her life. I'd also like to say I'm not done yet, you don't know what else happened to them since it's in the later chapters. But my point is when they needed each other most, they didn't have that support and were forced to go alone into darkness.

It feels like you're discounting all of that and wanting them to continue their relationship after that as if NOTHING has happened. It doesn't work that way...

The premise is both of them have changed, and they need to rediscover each other again. It's what's written in the summary even. My portrayal of Miranda already pushes her further along both the paragon and emotional scale. She cries twice in the 1st chapter, including one episode of outright sobbing. Yet all you saw was her acting robotic towards Shepard, I don't know what to say really.

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Honestly, I can't say that Miranda is good. I'd peg her as lawful neutral, though by the end of the game, she may be changing.

Can not *anything* be discussed without turning to morality, damn it? I don't think I've been on any forum so obsessed with this.

I'd rather discuss how she will advance humanity by her actions (or her existence, but that's another story I'll hopefully tell myself in my fanfics).

I'm afraid that's your bad luck in dealing with me; I'm fascinated by moral issues and tend to hover over them with great fondness.

[Dave of Canada]

This also probably has been discussed to death. I've recently rewatched the blow-up the Collector Base scene with Miranda in the party, she essentially tells the Illusive Man she's quitting but... doesn't this put her sister in danger? Would Cerberus feel no obligation to protect Oriana from her father?

[Xilizhra]

I doubt it. TIM never throws anything away.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

I doubt it. TIM never throws anything away.

Great, now I just imagined TIM on the show "Hoarders" with the flying base being filled with boxes of junk and Miranda's talking to him about Shepard but having trouble moving around the junk to see him.

Thanks.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 novembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Ryzaki]

XD Thanks for that mental image Dave.



Honestly though I wouldn't peg Miranda as good either, neutral at best. A good character wouldn't talk about nearly destroying someone's ship (that's not an antagonist) in a "meh" tone.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yes, it is. It's also uinderstandable. Miranda has the widest range of possible paths for character development of all ME2 characters, and everyone of us fears that ME3 will make someone of her (s)he won't be able to like any more - as it would be for me if Miranda would come to make or recommend non-pragmatic decisions regularly.

Miranda is awesome. I think we *are* all united in that and we're also united in our wish that she will continue to be awesome.

Eh. I don't believe that. If anyone has the most room for development it would be Jack.

Though frankly I doubt BW would completely turn Miranda into someone that is unrecongnizable. I have more faith in them ta that.
I honestly have no problem with her making non-pragmatic decisions. (Except the pick me conv. <_<)

Yes she is awesome. I just hope she's not turned into a complete ice queen or ms bubbly sunshine and flowers. As long as BW avoids extremes I'll be happy.

[Ieldra]

Dave of Canada wrote...
This also probably has been discussed to death. I've recently rewatched the blow-up the Collector Base scene with Miranda in the party, she essentially tells the Illusive Man she's quitting but... doesn't this put her sister in danger? Would Cerberus feel no obligation to protect Oriana from her father?

Cerberus would have its own use for Oriana. After all, as she is genetically identical to Miranda, she represents an advancement of humanity just as much as Miranda does. However, I very much doubt TIM's plans would be pleasant for either of them. He's got a vindictive streak. 

[jtav]

I worry for them both. Miranda could be in the same situation as Grayson, and it wou;dn't be the first time something horrible has happened to a party member. She might want to think about finding a new patron or killing TIM.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yes, it is. It's also uinderstandable. Miranda has the widest range of possible paths for character development of all ME2 characters, and everyone of us fears that ME3 will make someone of her (s)he won't be able to like any more - as it would be for me if Miranda would come to make or recommend non-pragmatic decisions regularly.

Miranda is awesome. I think we *are* all united in that and we're also united in our wish that she will continue to be awesome.

Eh. I don't believe that. If anyone has the most room for development it would be Jack.

Miranda has room both on the Renegade and Paragon side, while Jack can pretty much go into only one direction because she sits at the extreme end.

Though frankly I doubt BW would completely turn Miranda into someone that is unrecongnizable. I have more faith in them ta that.
I honestly have no problem with her making non-pragmatic decisions. (Except the pick me conv. <_<)

As long as the fate of the galaxy doesn't depend on them, I can live with one or the other. But I'd prefer not to see again sentimentality clouding her mind when it's really important. I'm not much into faith. I'd settle for precedence, but the last time Bioware developed characters over multiple games was in the Baldur's Gate series. That was nicely done, but it was ten years ago, and characters weren't fully voiced back then. Also, the BG story wasn't nearly as idealistic as Shepard's is, though more limited in expression. What does make me optimistic is that as the last game in the series, diverging outcomes are no problem. I hope we'll see a lot of them. 

Yes she is awesome. I just hope she's not turned into a complete ice queen or ms bubbly sunshine and flowers. As long as BW avoids extremes I'll be happy.

I don't think we'll get the extreme ends. In that I agree with most of us here. Whether I'll be happy with the result, that depends on details.

It doesn't change that Miranda is awesome *now*.  For the rest, we'll have to wait.