15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm afraid that's your bad luck in dealing with me; I'm fascinated by moral issues and tend to hover over them with great fondness.

Then we are interested in the same thing from completely different angles. I am interested in a descriptive account of human morality. I don't ask what *is* right or wrong (there can be no objective answer to that), but rather how and why people come to consider something right or wrong. And the more I find out about that, the more I've come to the conviction that much of the intuitive morality used by human cultures doesn't measure of up to my personal standards of what should be. You could say that about half of humanity's moral intuitions as measured by a descriptive account across a variety of cultures feels morally wrong to me. Which makes me quite wary and suspicious of moralistic arguments in general, and particularly suspicious of Paragons in the ME games. 

I don't think Miranda's actions can be captured by a one-dimensional scale that has only the two ends "good" or "bad". Or anyone's really. Desirability of outcomes and actions has more than one dimension, and all should be taken into consideration.

BTW: has anyone else problems with editing posts? Two thirds of the time I get a black empty window after I hit the edit button.

 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda has room both on the Renegade and Paragon side, while Jack can pretty much go into only one direction because she sits at the extreme end.

That still doesn't stop her from not changing as much fundmentally as Jack.

As long as the fate of the galaxy doesn't depend on them, I can live with one or the other. But I'd prefer not to see again sentimentality clouding her mind when it's really important. I'm not much into faith. I'd settle for precedence, but the last time Bioware developed characters over multiple games was in the Baldur's Gate series. That was nicely done, but it was ten years ago, and characters weren't fully voiced back then. Also, the BG story wasn't nearly as idealistic as Shepard's is, though more limited in expression. What does make me optimistic is that as the last game in the series, diverging outcomes are no problem. I hope we'll see a lot of them.

Meh. I didn't like her until she resigned so to me her acting with her emotions isn't that bad of a thing.

I don't think we'll get the extreme ends. In that I agree with most of us here. Whether I'll be happy with the result, that depends on details.

It doesn't change that Miranda is awesome *now*.  For the rest, we'll have to wait.

True. I just think she has a lot of room to grow.

[Ryzaki]

Actually I have a problem with both paragons and renegades in the ME universe. Paragons are too forgiving and renegades are too bullheaded and unwilling to see two sides of the story. They both have their issues.

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually I have a problem with both paragons and renegades in the ME universe. Paragons are too forgiving and renegades are too bullheaded and unwilling to see two sides of the story. They both have their issues.

It's why you play in the middle and hope to god that you can get all the tough charm / intimidate choices out of the way early on.

[jtav]

I just had the Miranda/Jack fight. Sided with Miranda, though I could have Renegaded it. I don't like the fight. It's one sided in Miranda's favor. Jack instigates the fight. Jack is the one being physically violent and making threats. Miranda apologizes if you side with her. "Clearly, you we a mistake is a vile thing to day, but I don't feel the blame is remotely equal. The only reason I give Miranda a harder time is that I don't think Jack can control herself. If the blame was meant to be equal, we should have seen Miranda antagonizing Jack and then have Jack snap and become violent.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...
Actually I have a problem with both paragons and renegades in the ME universe. Paragons are too forgiving and renegades are too bullheaded and unwilling to see two sides of the story. They both have their issues.

Quite so. But the problem lies somewhere else: everyone recognizes the Renegades' callousness as a character flaw, while only a minority recognizes the Paragons' sentimentality as an equally bad flaw - many actually promote it as a virtue, as if acting on emotion untempered by reason was desirable as a matter of principle. I say it's a character flaw most of the time, whenever things go beyond the purely personal. That sentimentality tends to make people likeable while callousness tends to make them dislikeable does not change the fact that both are character flaws, and I refuse to make "likeable" a virtue as such.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Quite so. But the problem lies somewhere else: everyone recognizes the Renegades' callousness as a character flaw, while only a minority recognizes the Paragons' sentimentality as an equally bad flaw - many actually promote it as a virtue, as if acting on emotion untempered by reason was desirable as a matter of principle. I say it's a character flaw most of the time, whenever things go beyond the purely personal. That sentimentality tends to make people likeable while callousness tends to make them dislikeable does not change the fact that both are character flaws, and I refuse to make "likeable" a virtue as such.

True they are both character flaws. But let's be honest paragon Shepard is a lot more likable than Renegade Shepard. At least PShep isn't liable to punch you in the face for looking at him wrong. And people judge off appearences. If you act like a douche you're going to be judged more harshly than Mr. Nice Guy. That's just how it goes.

Unless you're Mc. Douche because of your wangsty childhood. Then for some reason you get a pass. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:06 .

[jtav]

Is the salute scene on YouTube anywhere? I'm doubting my resolve to see it in person. Thane is about as hard for me to resist as Miranda is for most of you. This playthrough is...research. That's it. Research.

[jlb524]

You can see it here, jtav.  Jump to 1:10

Modifié par jlb524, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:23 .

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Quite so. But the problem lies somewhere else: everyone recognizes the Renegades' callousness as a character flaw, while only a minority recognizes the Paragons' sentimentality as an equally bad flaw - many actually promote it as a virtue, as if acting on emotion untempered by reason was desirable as a matter of principle. I say it's a character flaw most of the time, whenever things go beyond the purely personal. That sentimentality tends to make people likeable while callousness tends to make them dislikeable does not change the fact that both are character flaws, and I refuse to make "likeable" a virtue as such.

True they are both character flaws. But let's be honest paragon Shepard is a lot more likable than Renegade Shepard. At least PShep isn't liable to punch you in the face for looking at him wrong. And people judge off appearences. If you act like a douche you're going to be judged more harshly than Mr. Nice Guy. That's just how it goes.

Yes, of course. They are character flaws in different situations. In personal relationships, a little sentimentality will most likely hurt nobody, while being a callous jerk even once might destroy the relationship. In strategic decisions, a little callousness won't do much damage while one decision driven by sentimentality may cost you the war, campaign or whatever it is you want to achieve.

I guess you can see how that applies to Miranda.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Is the salute scene on YouTube anywhere? I'm doubting my resolve to see it in person. Thane is about as hard for me to resist as Miranda is for most of you. This playthrough is...research. That's it. Research.

LOL. I do empathize.

I've just sent another ME1 femShep to Ilos, romancing Kaidan. I had almost forgotten how good that scene is. Isn't it strange how, if femShep is forward with Kaidan in ME1, it is sexy and funny, while when she does the same with Jacob, it's like bad porn?

If femShep could romance Miranda, I would face a really hard decision when going from ME1 to ME2.

[Ieldra]

I think this Miranda-ized picture of Yvonne Strahovski should be posted here:

[jtav]

Much of my issue with Miranda's romance is Meer's VA work, so being able to romance Miranda as a FemShep may have left me in a difficult position. I'm in a difficult position right now, choosing between the salute scene and Thane's romance. I love them both to bits.



Great. Now I have the urge to work on Atonement.

[Elyvern]

Something less divisive to talk about. Strahovski and Jen Hale have both been nominated for best female voice performance in the Spike TV VGA. So let's talk about Miranda's in-game lines where you feel best exemplify Miranda and moments where Strahovski's voice work really shines out for you.

In terms of voice-acting aptitude and skill, I love her flustered dialogue after the renegade kiss scene. It's extremely hard to stutter spontaneously and convincingly, but she does it marvelously there. And "Stop smiling, damnit!" was the crowning icing on the whole cake for me.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

I just had the Miranda/Jack fight. Sided with Miranda, though I could have Renegaded it. I don't like the fight. It's one sided in Miranda's favor. Jack instigates the fight. Jack is the one being physically violent and making threats. Miranda apologizes if you side with her. "Clearly, you we a mistake is a vile thing to day, but I don't feel the blame is remotely equal. The only reason I give Miranda a harder time is that I don't think Jack can control herself. If the blame was meant to be equal, we should have seen Miranda antagonizing Jack and then have Jack snap and become violent.

I don't like Jack in the least, but she's clearly mentally ill. I really don't think it was too much for Miranda to just apologize even if she didn't mean it, for the sake of avoiding a potentially lethal fight.

Quite so. But the problem lies somewhere else: everyone recognizes the
Renegades' callousness as a character flaw, while only a minority
recognizes the Paragons' sentimentality as an equally bad flaw - many
actually promote it as a virtue, as if acting on emotion untempered by
reason was desirable as a matter of principle. I say it's a character
flaw most of the time, whenever things go beyond the purely personal.
That sentimentality tends to make people likeable while callousness
tends to make them dislikeable does not change the fact that both are
character flaws, and I refuse to make "likeable" a virtue as such.

I really can't help but to point out the fact that Paragon Shepard's sentimentality has never, so far as we know, backfired. To you, it may be a sign of the universe being stacked, but to me, it says that Shepard is actually capable of finding a time and place to be sentimental, and only choosing to do so when she's sure it's safe.

[jtav]

I like "Not even remotely." She scared me. And the end of the loyalty mission. She manages to convey both her love for Oriana and her fear of connecting with her with only a few lines. And "the only things I can take credit for all my mistakes." That was the moment that captured me completely and utterly.



A very good debut effort for Strahovski and a very well deserved nomination.

[philiposophy]

I think Strahovski did a great job on the "It's not about what I want, it's about what's best for her" line.



Another great one was when you accuse her of being jealous during the kiss scene. I think she delivers the "First, it's not a competition!" perfectly.

[hooahguy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think this Miranda-ized picture of Yvonne Strahovski should be posted here:

Oh. WOW!

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think this Miranda-ized picture of Yvonne Strahovski should be posted here:

ZOMG WHERE'D YOU GET THAT?!!! I WANT!!!

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Elyvern wrote...

@MsSihaKatieKrios - I keep getting the feeling you totally missed out on a number of points while reading my fic and then find alot of things incomprehensible because of it.  

Let me clarify: Miranda and Shepard haven't seen each other in years. This isn't the couple that we see at the end of ME2. They've both been through life and (near) death independent of each other. They walked different paths for 5 years with only the knowledge of each other for solace. In this war, their personal relationship took a backseat because they had to do what must be done. They're traumatised people, but struggling to hide it, struggling to become normal humans again. Against that backdrop, nothing can be normal. 

What is love for one person, when Shepard's hands is awashed with the blood of billions? Where was Shepard when Miranda broke down in depression after Mordin's death and saw the Reapers winning? There is actually a hint of suicide when Miranda injected herself with the nanites. She literally saw no other way out, she was at that low a point in her life. I'd also like to say I'm not done yet, you don't know what else happened to them since it's in the later chapters. But my point is when they needed each other most, they didn't have that support and were forced to go alone into darkness.

It feels like you're discounting all of that and wanting them to continue their relationship after that as if NOTHING has happened. It doesn't work that way...

The premise is both of them have changed, and they need to rediscover each other again. It's what's written in the summary even. My portrayal of Miranda already pushes her further along both the paragon and emotional scale. She cries twice in the 1st chapter, including one episode of outright sobbing. Yet all you saw was her acting robotic towards Shepard, I don't know what to say really.

Well...true, but still, there still is a bit more room for emotion. And I never discounted the fact they've changed, but it still felt like you were writing your version of Miranda (i.e. one that never softened up, a.k.a never had the character development), and it didn't feel like 'ME2 Miranda'. I would've expected Miranda to be happier at seeing Shepard. Also, it would've made more sense that Miranda stayed by Shepard's side. If I were to explain all the reasons, it would result in another doomwall. Also, I find the 'rediscovering each other premise' quite cliche, sorry. I've just seen too many romantic tearjerkers that use that premise.

[t3HPrO]

@Ieldra2

Jeez chill and take a joke. You take everything too seriously, like everything is SRS BUSINESS. Learn to laugh a bit man. Btw, did you photoshop that Miri pic?

[ADLegend21]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think this Miranda-ized picture of Yvonne Strahovski should be posted here:

in her own in game chatter words: Perfect!

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
I really can't help but to point out the fact that Paragon Shepard's sentimentality has never, so far as we know, backfired. To you, it may be a sign of the universe being stacked, but to me, it says that Shepard is actually capable of finding a time and place to be sentimental, and only choosing to do so when she's sure it's safe.

The universe is stacked in favor of Paragons because random events Shepard couldn't have any way to know always - no exceptions - turn out in the Paragons' favor, even if the information we're given in-game would suggest otherwise. It's like playing roulette and winning with every bet. That's what it feels like to play a Paragon in the ME games - contrived to the point of absurdity.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Something less divisive to talk about. Strahovski and Jen Hale have both been nominated for best female voice performance in the Spike TV VGA. So let's talk about Miranda's in-game lines where you feel best exemplify Miranda and moments where Strahovski's voice work really shines out for you.

In terms of voice-acting aptitude and skill, I love her flustered dialogue after the renegade kiss scene. It's extremely hard to stutter spontaneously and convincingly, but she does it marvelously there. And "Stop smiling, damnit!" was the crowning icing on the whole cake for me.

Yes, I love that scene, too. And "stop smiling, damn it." And the scene where she sees Oriana safe in the loyalty mission, the hesistant way she answers "I guess not" when you say "Would it be so bad to know she has a sister who loves her?"

[Ieldra]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think this Miranda-ized picture of Yvonne Strahovski should be posted here:

ZOMG WHERE'D YOU GET THAT?!!! I WANT!!!

LOL. I found it on another forum. But guessing from the reaction, this might deserve a place in the OP. What do you think?

@t3HPrO:
Not my work. My Photoshop skills are almost nonexistent.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 novembre 2010 - 08:21 .