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[Ieldra]

philiposophy wrote...
Miranda would not just be concerned with making human biotics safer, but also removing the social stigma that hangs over them.

That people are wary of them because of their special powers is unlikely to change through any measure. It's just human nature. A marked increase in the number of biotics - which would be one result of making biotics safer to attain - might include a wider acceptance as a side effect, but otherwise there's not much you can do.

Apart from that wariness, is there actually any social stigma?

I should mention that I think Miranda would not be concerned overmuch with social issues in general. She just isn't that kind of person - too removed from people and generally not a people person. She's also very unlikely to respond with empathy to problems people have brought over themselves. She'd be aware of the fact that other people's limits are much lower than hers, but she'd still expect them to do their best before she'd consider them deserving of help. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 novembre 2010 - 11:52 .

[philiposophy]

Well, I'm sure I read that lots of biotics end up in the Alliance forces because they suffer discrimination and persecution in everyday life. The army is the only place they can know they'll be accepted.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I should mention that I think Miranda would not be concerned overmuch with social issues in general. She just isn't that kind of person - too removed from people and generally not a people person. She's also very unlikely to respond with empathy to problems people have brought over themselves. She'd be aware of the fact that other people's limits are much lower than hers, but she'd still expect them to do their best before she'd consider them deserving of help. 

I strongly agree with this. Besides, I'd imagine she'd probably get quite frustrated at the tendency for goals like this to take 3 steps forward, 2 steps back, or become entirely sidelined because of new political developments. Dealing with social issues involve alot of social and psychological skills, negotiations with different parties about various needs -- in short, it requires a political acumen to survive that minefield, and as we know, Miranda would very much prefer gun-point diplomacy.

Miranda's natural eye for detail, logical organisation and patience for tedious work makes her perfect as a scientist in the long run, and it's actually what I imagine she'd gravitate towards once she's done with the cloak-and-dagger world, the spy and espionage career. But I also feel she has to firstly depersonalise what genetic augmentations her father has done on her to be able to conduct research on human biotics and augmentations to human capabilities. Something like that right now remains too close to her heart for her to be competently objective about the goal. Lazarus project fortunately didn't make gross augmentations of Shepard as its primarily goal. But I admit beyond Lazarus, there isn't much of what she's done in Cerberus that can be construed as advancing humanity. I wish there was more hints of what she does in that organisation really.

[Xilizhra]

Does anyone here have the exact quote Miranda uses when she talks about putting a control chip in Shepard's brain?

[jtav]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does anyone here have the exact quote Miranda uses when she talks about putting a control chip in Shepard's brain?

Miranda: I wasn't in charge. The Illusive Man was. If I were running the show, I'd have done a few things differently.
Shepard: What would you have changed?
Miranda: For starters, I would have implanted you with some type of control chip.

[Xilizhra]

Spiffykeen. Thanks.

[jtav]

I'd still like to read something where she gets her way about that. It would put her in villain territory for me, but the one story I read with that premise was cartoonishly bad.

[Xilizhra]

Indeed... and speaking of villain territory, it's where I needed that quote to go for my nine-part character alignment chart. I'm fairly sure that of the squadmates, though, she's the closest to lawful evil.

[jtav]

I think she straddles the line between Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral and is a pretty good example of why alignments don't really fit well-rounded characters. She has both excessive moral failing and extraordinary virtue. Still not sure how I feel about her.

[Elyvern]

The more pertinent question is where does she stand at the end of ME2?

[Xilizhra]

I'm going to guess by this point that she's fairly LN.

[jtav]

I'd say she starts off as LN with Evil tendencies and ends TN with Good tendencies if you Paragon'd her LM and she destroyed the base.

[Elyvern]

Setting aside my reservations for the DND alignment system and how it doesn't even begin to capture the complexities of her personality, I don't actually see her able to abandon her "lawful" tendencies though. She still appreciates order and sees the merits of chain of command in a war situation. She recognises and respects authority that she feels warrants her respect and tries to keep her calm to avoid emotional excess in confrontations (think conflict scene with Jack). I don't see any of that being in the danger of disappearing no matter how her character develops in ME3.

[philiposophy]

Miranda is Lawful Neutral if anything. She's a very ordered person and part of her character is that she likes to know where she fits in the world. Also, her belief in a higher altruistic goal makes it hard to call her "evil" in the way that DnD alignments work.

[Errol Dnamyx]

Miranda is the control chip.

[Giggles_Manically]

I hate the flip flop that happens with Miranda and Jacob's personality after Freedom's Progress.



I was looking forward to having a cold and professional person, but then Miranda becomes all open and chatty with Shepard? I was off put by that.



I was also off put by Miranda not wanting to keep the base, because that makes zero sense. For every other choice like Legion or Grunt, Miranda wants to use the data for Cerberus and humanity, yet now she dosent?

Jacob I can understand but not her since there is no progress of dialouge that moves her away from her loyalty to cerberus.



Ah well thats just par for the course in ME2.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Setting aside my reservations for the DND alignment system and how it doesn't even begin to capture the complexities of her personality,[...]

I feel quite unable to set that aside. Reading about complex characters made to fit that system always bugs me, and I'm highly irritated having to see it used here. Xilizrha, you could've chosen a less blatant way to do that. 

I don't actually see her able to abandon her "lawful" tendencies though. She still appreciates order and sees the merits of chain of command in a war situation. She recognises and respects authority that she feels warrants her respect and tries to keep her calm to avoid emotional excess in confrontations (think conflict scene with Jack). I don't see any of that being in the danger of disappearing no matter how her character develops in ME3.

The problem is that I find the term "lawful" misapplied. She is an ordered and methodic personality, she values calmness and composure, what would you call that? Her relationship to authority is as conflicted as anyone's with an intelligence like hers - she does value "a place where she fits", but will give her allegiance only to those she respects. As for the law, she's quite willing to break it for a higher cause. And the chain of command in a war situation is simply the intelligent thing to have, it is a necessity, not a way of life.

[Xilizhra]

I feel quite unable to set that aside. Reading about complex characters made to fit that system always bugs me, and I'm highly irritated having to see it used here. Xilizrha, you could've chosen a less blatant way to do that.

Theoretically, but nine-part alignment chart motivational poster things are kind of a tradition where I come from, and I felt like doing one for ME2. I wanted to use TIM, but that'd break the pattern of using all squad members. In any case, I feel that it's overly criticized for simplicity, as each alignment has many different ways it can be expressed. Miranda and Hitler both qualify as LE, but are very different about it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 novembre 2010 - 07:43 .

[philiposophy]

Well, arguably using Miranda would break the pattern of accurately designating alignments...

Even so, what's the rest of the chart like?

Modifié par philiposophy, 24 novembre 2010 - 07:42 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm posting it piecemeal in the "Motivationals" thread in the ME2 discussion forum. Finished are LE (Miranda), CN (Jack), TN (Grunt), LN (Samara), NE (Zaeed), and CE (Morinth). I've tentatively designated Legion for LG, Tali for NG, and Garrus for CG.

[jtav]

Anybody up for offering me some concrit? There's a passage I'm not sure about.

[Ieldra]

Some what? If you're speaking of advice, I'd be willing, except I can answer about 8 hours from now at the earliest.

[jtav]

Constructive criticism. Is Miranda too nice here?

She took a deep breath. "It's my job to understand Shepard. Since so much of what she became seems to hinge on what happened at Akuze, it seems a logical place to start. How much is she going to hate us?" Miranda kept her tone businesslike and tried to ignore the chill that passed over her. Everyone knew what had happened on Akuze. The story had dominated the news cycle for weeks. Shepard had only just survived the first human encounter with thresher maws. She'd sustained severe acid burns to her face and chest, and the scars had never fully healed. It wasn't something Miranda relished reliving, but she had to try, didn't she? "Can you do that?"

"Not as such. I'm sorry." Liara didn't sound sorry. "I can give you flashes and emotions." Do you remember how blurry what you saw was?" Miranda nodded, and she continued. "It's even worse for things I didn't experience myself. We never discussed it. She didn't show it to me. I couldn't give you anything coherent."

"That seems... weak. I got Shepard's thoughts with no problem. You had no way of knowing those during the encounter itself." Miranda rubbed her temples. She was suddenly aware that it had been a very long day. "You would have had to experience them during the meld."

Liara's eyes narrowed and her lips thinned. Miranda had seen that look before. Liara had worn a similar scowl when she'd first agreed to help Cerberus recover Shepard's body. "It's still harder."

"Nobody said this would be easy." Damn it, Liara. You're not usually so petulant. What's going on? "Shepard came to galactic attention because she was the first human to survive a thresher maw attack. You seemed convinced that she'll hate you because of that attack. Why want you show it to me?"

"Because I don't want to!" Liara's voice was a sharp and cold as an ice pick. She dug her fingers into her thigh. "Has it ever occurred to you that I had to experience every memory I give you right along with you? I would be feeling Shepard's pain and fear. She was nearly given a psychiatric discharge after what happened. Maybe you can cope better with that sort of thing. I'm told spies can. But I'm not a spy."

Miranda didn't respond immediately. Truthfully, she hadn't thought about it. She knew that she had asked Liara to share very personal memories, but what was privacy next to the fate of the universe? The idea of Liara being pushed past her mental endurance had never occurred to her. She closed her eyes. Liara would end up with enough mental scarring working in the information business. Adding to them wasn't a price she was willing to pay. She had standards.

Standards? Or are you just up a besotted fool afraid of hurting her crush?

Miranda dismissed the thought. Liara would be no good to her if she were turned into a gibbering wreck. Forcing her to risk her health was a brutish approach and the mark of an amateur. Miranda wasn't an amateur. "Then show me what happened between Shepard, Toombs, and Wayne. At the very least, I can get an idea of how much she might resist working for Cerberus."

[Xilizhra]

I think it's acceptable, given the general tone of this story.

[Markinator_123]

It's funny that Miranda finds keeping enemy technology reprehensible but is completely comfortable with putting a control chip in another human being's head (taking away another person's free will is just something that is hard to forgive!). Just wierd!