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[AdmiralCheez]

May I ask how discussing the theory that Miranda hacked the mechs isn't relevant to the Miranda discussion thread?

Because it will inevitably end in a flame war.  Also, it's more of a plot thing than a character thing, and involves Wilson as much as it does Miranda.  But, as I'm not a moderator or anything and as subject to my own opinions as everyone else, Zulu is free to ignore me.

The "is Miranda inept?" question is fair game, though.  My personal answer: no, not really, but she seems to be a bit too trusting at times.  TIM, Niket, etc.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
The "is Miranda inept?" question is fair game, though.  My personal answer: no, not really, but she seems to be a bit too trusting at times.  TIM, Niket, etc.

Well what makes the theory that she hacked the mechs interesting is that if she did, she was completely in control of the situation. If it was a simple betrayal by Wilson, she just lucked out that Shepard was able to fight his way out. If Wilson hacked the mechs, Miranda was not in control of the situation, which could be attributed to ineptitude.

[AdmiralCheez]

@COAW: Oh, okay. I see.

[fongiel24]

I think it's possible that Miranda hacked the mechs but unlikely. If she intended to get rid of the Lazarus Project personnel, there are easier ways to do it, some more subtle and some more efficient. Having the mechs with their primitive programming chase them through the station is neither subtle nor efficient. Miranda, Jacob, and Shepard managed to fight/sneak their way to the shuttles. Somebody else could get lucky and manage to do the same.



As for testing Shepard, I'm not sure why this is needed. Shepard has already proven he's a soldier both willing and capable of pulling the trigger in his previous life. He's already proven that he's capable of thinking on his feet and keeping a cool head in life threatening situations. All that Cerberus needs to test is whether his body is capable of carrying out his brain's commands. There are simpler and safer ways to test that as well, ways that wouldn't require them to start from scratch if a lucky shot hit Shepard in the head while he was still woozy.

[philiposophy]

I would be more willing to accept the idea that Miranda set Lazarus up as a test for Shepard if s/he was woken at the appropriate time. The game clearly sets it up that s/he was woken prematurely. Why would Miranda do that? It could jeopardize the entire Lazarus project and wouldn't prove anything - Shepard dying wouldn't necessarily mean that Shepard wasn't up to scratch and was thus a wasted investment, it could only prove that Shepard wasn't in a suitable physical and mental state to be plunged into combat.

[jtav]

Persistence excerpt for those interested.

"Miranda." The voice was soft, but there was a note of steel buried just beneath the surface. Long, almost delicate fingers gripped her and pulled her close. Liara. She was in Liara's apartment on a pleasant autumn day. They were light years away from the nearest Cerberus facility. She owed Cerberus everything. This fury wasn't hers. It was Shepard's. The feelings drained out of her, slowly. The headache remained. She felt hollow. It was as if, having felt Shepard's emotions, she had lost the ability to feel her own.

Liara continued to hold her. Miranda couldn't have resisted even if she'd wanted to. Liara's breath caressed her face. "It's okay," she murmured. Miranda inhaled. Liara smelled strongly of mint. Nice scent, that. She removed one hand from Miranda's shoulders and ran her palm up and down her spine. Gentling her, like a skittish horse or a child waking up from a night mare. “It’s okay.” Liara’s hands were trembling. She felt the same echoes of murderous fury coursing through her.

The thought that she wasn't the only one in the grips of strong emotion didn't make Miranda feel much better. She’d read of the melds Shepard have performed with Liara and Shiala, exchanging the Cipher and vision from the Prothean beacon. There had been mentions of Liara feeling faint and exhausted afterwards, but Shepard had been able to shrug it off. Surely Miranda ought to be at least as strong? The first time might be excusable because of the novelty, but not the second. She was the one who had been bred to have superhuman endurance. That endurance was the reason she'd survived the operations that had made her a biotic and given her the greybox. She felt her cheeks flush with something that had nothing to do with Toombs or Akuze.

She pulled away. "May I have some water?" Her voice was horse, and she felt as if her mouth had been stuffed with sandpaper, but at least it wasn't the barely human croak from before. Perhaps there was hope for her yet.

"Of course." Liara stood up and started walking in the direction of what Miranda assumed to be the kitchen. She almost called after her and told her she would get it herself, but thought better of it. There was pride, and then there was arrogance. Liara returned with the offered glass, and Miranda accepted it with a murmured thanks. The water was cool and fresh. It took every ounce of self-control Miranda possessed not to down it in one gulp.

Liara resumed her seat on the couch. "Better?" she asked after several minutes.

"I think so." Miranda sipped carefully. "I've been worse. Mostly just a mild headache."

"You are remarkably strong willed, you know." Miranda looked up at that. Liara was staring at her. It wasn't the calculating, appraising expression she normally wore when she looked at Miranda. Her eyes were hard. "Most humans would be huddled in corner for the next hour."

"Shepard was fine when you did this with her." She couldn't keep the bitterness from her voice.

"I was taking information from Shepard, not giving it. Even when she received the Cipher, she was receiving ancestral memory, not the memories of individual Protheans. She never had to feel another's lust or anger. My people are natural empaths. Yours aren't. You're handling this about as well as could be expected." She smiled, wistful and a little sad. "Shepard was always a person of strong emotions. Especially her anger." Her expression darkened. "That was the only time I ever saw of Shepard shoot someone who wasn't armed. You see why I say she'll be furious at having to work for Cerberus."

"I do." She had known intellectually that Shepard blamed Cerberus for what happened on Akuze. That wasn't the same as experiencing blind, unreasoning rage for herself. Make them pay. She'd always kept a check on her emotions. Letting fear, anger, or even love interfere with the job was a good way to end up dead. You used your brain, not your gut. But Shepard had acted on impulse because of her hatred. Which meant she would be a problem when she woke up. But there was always a way to solve problems if you didn't mind getting your hands dirty.

Liara looked down. "Now do you see why I say Shepard will hate me? She'll see this as the worst kind of betrayal. Though I admit I'd rather be lonely and have her alive again."

Looking back, Miranda couldn't say what possessed her to say what she did next. Maybe a bit of Shepard still lingered in her. "Who said you had to be lonely? If Shepard is stupid enough to hate you for saving her life, find someone else." It was Liara's turn to look up. "You could have Nos Astra on its knees in ten minutes if you made the effort. Move on with your life."

"Move on with my life," she repeated softly. Another wry smile "I've had offers, you know. I'm a celebrity, and everybody wants to be close to notoriety here." She put a hand on Miranda's arm. "But I won't be an ornament. I won't be used like that. Her fingers glided upwards, almost caressing her. "I'd have to trust my partner, and there are only two people in the galaxy that I trust anymore. One of them is dead. The other..." She trailed off abruptly.

A tightness constricted Miranda's throat. Breathing was suddenly very difficult. She doesn't mean you, a voice said. She'll never mean you. She had to stop torturing herself like this. Stop acting like a teenager every time Liara so much as touched her. It didn't mean anything. Asari simply touched people more often. Liara probably didn't even realize what she was doing. "I'm sure Feron... would be very happy to hear that."

Liara brought her free hand up and removed an errant lock of hair that had fallen in front of Miranda's face. She was trembling again, but there was no trace of righteous fury in her expression. "I didn't mean Feron."

Now that the UST is about to be resolved, I can get on with the plot.

[HectorB]

kraidy1117 wrote...

RobotNixon wrote...



I like this one.

Indeed

My new wallpaper! haha

[Pinkflamingo22]

zulu is just the type of person that needs to disagree with the masses to feel smart. lets just stop giving him the time of day. Logic and evidence doesn't sway people like this.

[Ieldra]

@jtav:
This is a very good scene. I like the foreshadowing - Miranda's competitiveness with regard to Shepard, the control chip issue. The aftermath of almost having drowned in another's emotions also comes across very clearly, as well as Miranda being conflicted about her attraction to Liara.

BTW, funny typo with the horse voice, LOL.

(What's "UST"?)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Ieldra]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
The "is Miranda inept?" question is fair game, though.  My personal answer: no, not really, but she seems to be a bit too trusting at times.  TIM, Niket, etc.

Well what makes the theory that she hacked the mechs interesting is that if she did, she was completely in control of the situation. If it was a simple betrayal by Wilson, she just lucked out that Shepard was able to fight his way out. If Wilson hacked the mechs, Miranda was not in control of the situation, which could be attributed to ineptitude.

Perhaps not ineptitude, but it was a security failure. That Miranda would have been in control of the situation is the reason why I wouldn't mind if it had been so. I just don't think it likely - apart from the added assumptions, it's much too convoluted for an introductory setup,  

[t3HPrO]

@Ieldra2

UST= Unresolved sexual tension if I remember correctly.

[jtav]

Gah! Thank you Ieldra. I've fixed the typo. And, yes, unresolved sexual tension. I'm thoroughly sick of Miranda's pining.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Gah! Thank you Ieldra. I've fixed the typo. And, yes, unresolved sexual tension. I'm thoroughly sick of Miranda's pining.

Then let them get on with it...

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
The "is Miranda inept?" question is fair game, though.  My personal answer: no, not really, but she seems to be a bit too trusting at times.  TIM, Niket, etc.

Well what makes the theory that she hacked the mechs interesting is that if she did, she was completely in control of the situation. If it was a simple betrayal by Wilson, she just lucked out that Shepard was able to fight his way out. If Wilson hacked the mechs, Miranda was not in control of the situation, which could be attributed to ineptitude.

Perhaps not ineptitude, but it was a security failure.

And what did make this security failure possible? Right, Cerberus' general ineptness. Everybody knows that Cerberus is so inept that they even fail at being evil. Every project they run blows up in their faces. Lazarus Project was Miranda Lawson's responsibility, so in this particular case Cerberus ineptness was conducted via her personal inepteptitude. Face it, she was sleeping on the job. For two years. With the priiize. And she was sleeping so hard that let Wilson put cams all over the place, so that the Shadow Broker could enjoy watching it in the solitude of his office back room. Good thing there was Shepard in this project, which made it infallible.

That Miranda would have been in control of the situation is the reason why I wouldn't mind if it had been so. I just don't think it likely - apart from the added assumptions, it's much too convoluted for an introductory setup,  

Likely or not, you have to accept either it, or Miranda's ineptitude.

Or should I throw in the "both" option? Because I'm feeling like I can, because it would fit, this time, lol!

zulu is just the type of person that needs to disagree with the masses to feel smart. lets just stop giving him the time of day. Logic and evidence doesn't sway people like this.

I feel smart all the time, whether the masses agree with me or not. Because yes, logic and evidence don't sway people. Fact of life. But they do make people feel uneasy and think that they are being trolled. But I have to disillusion you once again: if wanted to troll, I'd start with advocating the planet scanning, or some crap like "Why I think dead Shepard files will be importable", or I could post a screenshot of what happens if you take Miranda to her loyalty mission in her black outfit. But I don't.

[Ieldra]

There is a way to make Miranda wear her black outfit in her LM? How do you do that?



Well, I guess the result isn't pleasant, from what you're saying....



As for your speculation, there is always an unlimited number of scenarios that fit any possible set of observations. You're just making one or two assumptions more than the game hints at, but don't contradict anything. That makes the scenario possible, but it doesn't make it likely. It is based on assumptions, imagination and extrapolation, not on evidence.



BTW, a security failure does not automatically translate into ineptitude, especially if the opponent is the Shadow Broker.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There is a way to make Miranda wear her black outfit in her LM? How do you do that?

Well, I guess the result isn't pleasant, from what you're saying....

You can unlock all "loyalty" outfits from the games start as early as you get to the Normandy, by editing coalesced.ini.

But during the loyalty missions the cutscenes don't work properly, so you need to make sure the characters wear their basic outfits on their respective loyalty missions.

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for your speculation, there is always an unlimited number of scenarios that fit any possible set of observations. You're just making one or two assumptions more than the game hints at, but don't contradict anything. That makes the scenario possible, but it doesn't make it likely. It is based on assumptions, imagination and extrapolation, not on evidence.

It takes me a wider stretch of imagination to believe Wilson did it. Wider than I can put up with anyway, because, honestly, I didn't buy it even on my 1st playthrough.

Ieldra2 wrote...
BTW, a security failure does not automatically translate into ineptitude, especially if the opponent is the Shadow Broker.

Sure. Whatever keeps you mind at peace.

I, for one, never denied, that my favorite character, aka TIM, screwed up in Ascension and then in Retribution, before managing to regain control of the situation.

[Ieldra]

Everyone can screw up occasionally, but ineptitude is a character trait. That's the difference.



BTW, with the original setup, you just need a reason for Wilson to have the skills to hack mechs (he's a covert Shadow Broker agent, *of course* he can hack mechs). That's minor in comparison with the whole string of additional assumptions and ascribed motives you need for your scenario.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

he's a covert Shadow Broker agent, *of course* he can hack mechs

Of course.

Ieldra2 wrote...

you just need a reason for Wilson to have the skills to hack mechs.

No. You also need a motive. Which is doubtful, as the Shadow Broker was withholding action against Cerberus.

You also need other, less clumsy options eliminated. Even if the Shadow Broker wanted Shepard brought to him immediately after the Lazarus Project was complete, there was an unlimited number of scenarios not involving "Wilson alone against the whole station of Cerberus personnel and mechs shooting everything that moves". Some harm could come to Shepard... What if there was a suicide-guy sitting on a red button 24/7?

You also need Wilson ready to risk his life. Wilson is established as extremely selfish (logs) and intelligent (chief doctor) person. These character traits are somewhat opposite to bravery and recklessness, essetial to "go for it".

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's minor in comparison with the whole string of additional assumptions and ascribed motives you need for your scenario.

I wouldn't call it minor, as my first and basic assumption is "Wilson didn't do it". The rest is just on top of it: "Then who did? Miranda. How? Easy..." Most of it are just explanations for the people who seem to think that there is "hard evidence" against "Miranda did it". There is no such evidence. I present a coherent (if somewhat too sophisticated for some) scenario, covering "Who, what, how and why." In the "Wilson did it" scenario those questions get too contradictory answers.

[Ieldra]

I very much doubt Bioware ever thought that deeply about a prologue scene. They made him a traitor, included a hint that he's hacked the mechs (I agree there's no hard evidence for that), and in LotSB connected him to the SB to close the glaring plot hole. Works for me. Should it be revealed that you're right with your theory, that would be OK too, but really, I doubt it. The sophistication of the scenario counts against it in this case.



It's like a conspiracy theory - they're all possible with no hard evidence against them, but absence of evidence *for* them counts against them because without that, they're just constructions in a vacuum. Start asking "why did Wilson hack the mechs" or even "did he really hack them", and you land in a territory where you don't have any handholds since the game doesn't give us any. The only possible answer given what the game gives us is "we don't know, and don't even know enough to speculate on a halfway firm ground."

[Zulu_DFA]

In other words, you say it's sloppy writing. Fair enough and fine, only it can be slapped on pretty much everything, starting with the "resurrection" thing and finishing with Miranda's infertility. Only why do they call them "professional writers"? One would expect from such to know who did what in their stories, even if they want to create suspense by keeping the player in the dark.

[TheSixthghoul]

Hi everybody long time sense the last time I was here. Seemd I've got some catching up to do.

[HectorB]

Are there any screemshots of the opening sequence with Miranda walking towards the screen.

[enayasoul]

Sorry to bring this up again but I am working on an angle in my fic with Miranda's initial reaction to the doctor's analysis... about her infertility. (I'm going with her getting checked out after the suicide mission, with her relationship with male shep progressing deeper... ) How do you think she would react? In disbelief, anger, sad, in denial? And her insecurity that if she tells him he might just bolt and leave her... I have some ideas but would like some input.

[Ieldra]

HectorB wrote...
Are there any screemshots of the opening sequence with Miranda walking towards the screen.

As requested....



I'll get back to you later, enyasoul. No time now.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

enayasoul wrote...

Sorry to bring this up again but I am working on an angle in my fic with Miranda's initial reaction to the doctor's analysis... about her infertility. (I'm going with her getting checked out after the suicide mission, with her relationship with male shep progressing deeper... ) How do you think she would react? In disbelief, anger, sad, in denial? And her insecurity that if she tells him he might just bolt and leave her... I have some ideas but would like some input.

I think her initial reaction would be a mix of anger and stubborn denial. She would then move on to sadness, but it would be well internalized. She doesn't show her emotions easily.