15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Caihn]

Melrache wrote...

But it doesn't give her the right to go after others, especially if they are, by no means, responsible for her condition. I wish there would've been renegade interrupt on those Miri/Jack, Legion/Tali, fights. Falcon punch into the face.

Me too.
Or something even better : make Jake an optional recruitment.

[Xilizhra]

Yannkee wrote...

Melrache wrote...

But it doesn't give her the right to go after others, especially if they are, by no means, responsible for her condition. I wish there would've been renegade interrupt on those Miri/Jack, Legion/Tali, fights. Falcon punch into the face.

Me too.
Or something even better : make Jake an optional recruitment.

Not the right. But I don't think that Jack is in control of her own emotions, or fully responsible for all of her actions.

Also, I'd like it if everyone's recruitment was optional.

[Caihn]

Even she is not in control of her emotions, I won't excuse her behavior.

Everyone optional ?
Mordin has to be recruited, and Legion too. So Miranda, Jacob, Mordin & Legion ... well maybe it works. Legion tech specialist, Jacob fire team leader, Miranda biotic buble (someone will die : let's say Mordin), no escort, Jacob holding the line, Miranda & Legion for the final fight.
But the problem is the loyalty : if Jacob is not loyal Legion die and there is not enough squadmate to finish the mission.

Modifié par Yannkee, 23 décembre 2010 - 01:28 .

[elmjuniper]

arent we talking about a fanfic anyway?

isn't the whole point with a fanfic that the author gets to tweak the story after his or her will?

i mean, there are a thousand was to go, and if the writer in this case wants to portray it this way...

then i see nothing strange about it.

[Pwnisher]

Legion is optional. I sold it to Cerberus for the money on my latest play through. Besides that, I didn't recruit Samara just to see what would happen and my entire crew, including myself, survived the Collector base. My point being that there are some optional characters that don't have to be recruited to successfully complete the mission. However, I agree with you when you say that Mordin has to be recruited. Miranda and Jacob are a must too, they brought my Ugly Shepard back to life as well as Miranda being the Illusive Man's right-hand woman.

[hooahguy]

I dont know if this is right, but dont you have to recruit all the first round of dossiers (Garrus, Mordin, Grunt, Jack) before Horizon is triggered? Or can you do side missions?

[Pwnisher]

Yes, all of the first-round dossiers have to be recruited before Horizon is triggered, but I usually recruit Zaeed and Kasumi before Horizon.

[Caihn]

Pwnisher wrote...

Legion is optional. I sold it to Cerberus for the money on my latest play through.

Ah yes I forgot that.
So all recruitment optional doesn't work.

But it doesn't change the fact that I don't want Jack on my ship. If her recruitment is not optional, I wish we can have a solution to get rid of her before the suicide mission.
I think that my next playthroughs I won't do her loyalty mission and I will ignore her like she doesn't exist. Loyalty mission or not she's not loyal, so who cares ?

Kelly : "Commander, Jack want to speak with you"
Shepard : "Who ?"
Kelly : "Jack"
Shepard : "Never heard of him"
Kelly : "But Jack is a ..."
Shepard : "That will be all"

Modifié par Yannkee, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[snfonseka]

Yannkee wrote...

Pwnisher wrote...

Legion is optional. I sold it to Cerberus for the money on my latest play through.

Ah yes I forgot that.
So all recruitment optional doesn't work.

But it doesn't change the fact that I don't want Jack on my ship. If her recruitment is not optional, I wish we can have a solution to get rid of her before the suicide mission.
I think that my next playthroughs I won't do her loyalty mission and I will ignore her like she doesn't exist. Loyalty mission or not she's not loyal, so who cares ?

Kelly : "Commander, Jack want to speak with you"
Shepard : "Who ?"
Kelly : "Jack"
Shepard : "Never heard of him"
Kelly : "But Jack is a ..."
Shepard : "That will be all"

Poor Jack....

[Loki330]

Sometimes feels I'm the about only one who actually likes both of them.

[Caihn]

Loki330 wrote...

Sometimes feels I'm the about only one who actually likes both of them.

You're not the only one.
There are other people who likes them both.

But you know, even if I would have liked Jack, it wouldn't have changed my opinion about the fight between Jack and Miranda. To me the only one to blame is Jack.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Loki330 wrote...

Sometimes feels I'm the about only one who actually likes both of them.

I like everyone.  I guess that makes me highly bizarre, eh?   But even I was surprised--ME2 is definitely the first RPG I've ever played where I have honestly liked every single person in my party.  As for Jack specifically, I felt sorry for her.  Sure she's a loose cannon, but my Shepard took extra time to talk to her and went out of her way to do Jack's loyalty mission for precisely that reason.  Of all the party members on SR2, I'd argue that Jack and Grunt need the most guidance from Shep, and if given that guidance, they turn out ok after all.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
I admit, I find it a little hard to understand why Miranda couldn't have apologized on Cerberus' behalf to stop the bloody fight... it wouldn't be that hard, and unlike Jack, Miranda does have the advantage of mental stability.

I think she might be magnanimous enough to do that eventually, but - and here's the catch - not on demand, not when confronted and threatened with death in her own room. It's not in her, it would be OOC. Also, giving in to Jack in this situation would send the completely wrong message.

[Xilizhra]

Ah well. Thank the Goddess for large numbers of Paragon points, anyway, so that things like this can be quickly solved.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

I liked both Miri and Jack...hmm...

Anyways, I always wished there was an option to b*tchslap the both of them and then draw them in for a sismance group hug. But then again with Miranda there, it'd be a lot more than sismance. ;P

[Loki330]

Yannkee wrote...
But you know, even if I would have liked Jack, it wouldn't have changed my opinion about the fight between Jack and Miranda. To me the only one to blame is Jack.

The problem is, we don't know how it started. Was there a spat that started in the canteen and went back to Miranda's office? If so, who started it?  If Jack started it, was she trying to get Miranda, the most senior person she can get to in Cerberus, to admit what happened to her was wrong? Did she just storm into Miranda's office? Did Miranda call her into the office to talk to her about something/criticise Jack's last performance on the ground team? If it was a normal conversation, what triggered the escalation? Have they been needling each other for the days/weeks/months that they've been on board and is this just the boiling over of that antagonism?

You get the idea. Until it's actually clear what happened there's too many variables to make a honest call of who's right and who's wrong imo, which is probably why the paragon/renegade route can be boiled down to 'Stop arguing' instead of picking sides.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I admit, I find it a little hard to understand why Miranda couldn't have apologized on Cerberus' behalf to stop the bloody fight... it wouldn't be that hard, and unlike Jack, Miranda does have the advantage of mental stability.

I think she might be magnanimous enough to do that eventually, but - and here's the catch - not on demand, not when  confronted and threatened with death in her own room. It's not in her,  it would be OOC. Also, giving in to Jack in this situation would send the completely wrong message.

To quote a post from the Jack thread, which I agree is probably the reason:

Pacifien wrote...
I take Miranda and Jack's confrontation as a visual representation of a flame war. Miranda might have felt that what the Teltin Cell did was wrong, but she wasn't going to give Jack the satisfaction of knowing that, especially if Jack was going to be in-your-face about it. Instead, she chose her words to cut deep.

Modifié par Loki330, 23 décembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Caihn]

I know these arguments, they have been posted in this thread many times. And I still don't agree.

[Loup Blanc]

I strongly dislike Jack. Had her killed in pretty much all my playthrough. I couldn't stand the thought of having her onboard with her trashy mouth in ME3. I tried to give her a chance, her romance scene is even touching, but man... is she a turn off. I can't stand her. At all. And her appearance is repulsive.

[Ieldra]

JL81 wrote...
I strongly dislike Jack. Had her killed in pretty much all my playthrough. I couldn't stand the thought of having her onboard with her trashy mouth in ME3. I tried to give her a chance, her romance scene is even touching, but man... is she a turn off. I can't stand her. At all. And her appearance is repulsive.

I don't kill people just because I don't like them. But dislike her I do, though more from personality incompatibility than anything else. I don't trust the impulsive types, and even less if they're casual about killing. I say that's a very reasonable attitude.

If I had a choice, she'd rarely be recruited. I don't understand why people want a volatile ax-crazy serial killer operating on an instinct that tells her "every time someone dies and it's not me, my chances go up" on their ship, and actually prefer her to an admittedly somewhat ruthless but supercompetent, very controlled and dependable top operative like Miranda. There must be some cognitive dissonance there, as if the fact that Jack has been a victim blinds people to her flaws, and that Miranda is Cerberus blinds people to her virtues.

I thought of posting this in the Jack thread, as an answer to JakeMacDon's barrage of anti-Miranda propaganda. But against him it would be a waste of time, and I don't want to alienate the more reasonable people in her thread.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Gethforceone]

Just wondering, what are these virtues?

[themark443]

Loki330 wrote...

Sometimes feels I'm the about only one who actually likes both of them.

Eh, you're not the only one. I like all of the squad members. 

[TomY90]

do i really dislikes Jack I find her annoying throughout even on her loyalty mission but i did not go that far as killing her never know she could be better on ME3

[Xilizhra]

There must be some cognitive dissonance there, as if the fact that Jack has been a victim blinds people to her flaws, and that Miranda is Cerberus blinds people to her virtues.

To be fair, both are significant. Many of Jack's "faults" aren't really her own responsibility, considering her severe mental issues, and Miranda's knowingly aligned herself with a group like Cerberus, actually showing loyalty to TIM. It's not a terribly good sign, since she seems to be less ignorant than Kelly, the engineers, etc.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Many of Jack's "faults" aren't really her own responsibility, considering her severe mental issues

Somehow I think the survivors of that space station she destroyed - should there be any - wouldn't find that argument terribly convincing. Jack said she *planned* this, that there was - as opposed to most of her other "operations" - some strategy behind it. Don't tell me it isn't her fault.

Miranda's knowingly aligned herself with a group like Cerberus, actually showing loyalty to TIM. It's not a terribly good sign, since she seems to be less ignorant than Kelly, the engineers, etc.

Less ignorant, yes. But how knowledgeable? She clearly didn't know what had happened at Teltin. As I said before, compartmentalization and working on a need-to-know basis is SOP for an organization like Cerberus. Only TIM knows every connection.

[Xilizhra]

Somehow I think the survivors of that space station she destroyed - should there be any - wouldn't find that argument terribly convincing. Jack said she *planned* this, that there was - as opposed to most of her other "operations" - some strategy behind it. Don't tell me it isn't her fault.

If necessary, I definitely would have killed her on that space station. However, this is an issue directly related to her past trauma.

Less ignorant, yes. But how knowledgeable? She clearly didn't know what had happened at Teltin. As I said before, compartmentalization and working on a need-to-know basis is SOP for an organization like Cerberus. Only TIM knows every connection.

And yet she doesn't even admit that Cerberus had done it.