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[Caihn]

Xilizhra wrote...
And yet she doesn't even admit that Cerberus had done it.

Because she doesn't have to admit something wrong.
It's not Cerberus. It's a rogue Cerberus cell.

Miranda : "It wasn't Cerberus, not really ..."

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Less ignorant, yes. But how knowledgeable? She clearly didn't know what had happened at Teltin. As I said before, compartmentalization and working on a need-to-know basis is SOP for an organization like Cerberus. Only TIM knows every connection.

And yet she doesn't even admit that Cerberus had done it.

She doesn't deny it happened. She said the cell went rogue, implying it had once been Cerberus but went its own way, that TIM wasn't responsible. That's actually supported by evidence, flimsy though it may be. What would you expect? That she'd be ready to repudiate TIM on Jack's word alone, who was a child back then, in spite of the recording in the facility? Her loyalty wouldn't be worth much if she acted like that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 décembre 2010 - 09:28 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, if it would lower the odds of a bulkhead being torn out...



In any case, I don't think Miranda has any authority over Jack unless Shepard explicitly gives it; she doesn't need to maintain an image of strength here.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
In any case, I don't think Miranda has any authority over Jack unless Shepard explicitly gives it; she doesn't need to maintain an image of strength here.

She's the XO of the SR2. Of course she needs to maintain an image of strength.

On a more personal level, she wouldn't give someone she doesn't respect the satisfaction of  conceding her a point if she can reasonably avoid it - and so far she can. Ask her again after the O4 mission when Jack has proven her merit, and I can see things going differently.

[Dan the Man with a Plan]

Well its easy to just get enough paragon or renegade points so you don't ****** off either, but if you had to choose in that situation its obvious to go on Miranda's side because Jack is sooo unlikeable

[Xilizhra]

But Jack doesn't belong to the Cerberus command structure; can Miranda really claim to have any authority over her?

[Melra]

Xilizhra wrote...

But Jack doesn't belong to the Cerberus command structure; can Miranda really claim to have any authority over her?

Sure, they're on Normandy after all. :innocent:

[GodWood]

Yannkee wrote...
But you know, even if I would have liked Jack, it wouldn't have changed my opinion about the fight between Jack and Miranda. To me the only one to blame is Jack.

Oh Yannkee, sometims your fanboyism knows no bounds.
I can accept that you can side with her but you can't possibly believe she free of blame unless you're completely delusional.

Lets actually take a look at the confrontation.
There are many things that are unknown about the argument.
How it started? Who was the instigator? and so on.
Personally I'm pretty sure it was Jack who stormed her way up there and actually confronted Miranda and thus it was she who the aggressor and so at this point, I'd agree, it is Jack who is in the wrong. (assuming of course Jack was the instigator)

But what was it Jack wanted from Miranda?
Well this we actually do know, Jack wanted her to admit that what Cerberus did to her was wrong.
Seems simply enough right?
Admit what Cerberus did to Jack was wrong.
She admits it to Shepard so it's clearly not something that she is incapable of doing nor is it something she doesn't believe.
As a matter of fact here's the direct quote she gives Shepard "it was a mistake, no question"
Now to keep the high ground and remain 'in the right' and 'not to be blamed' all that would of been required of Miranda was tell this to Jack.
The person who's entire life was destroyed by Cerberus.
But no, what does Miranda do?
She acts like a childish little ****, denys Cerberus did anything to Jack and calls her a mistake

Jack - The cheerleader won't admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong.
MIranda - It wasn't Cerberus. Not really. But clearly you were a mistake.
Jack - Screw you! You've got no idea what they put me through! Maybe it's time I showed you!

And for what reason does she do that? She admits it to Shepard so why not the victim who's entire life has been completely destroyed by the very people she works for.
Every cut, scar, torture, drugging and rape that has been inflicted on Jack has been a direct or indirect result of Cerberus' actions and any sane human would admit that kidnapping a child, cutting her up, drugging her, torturing her and forcing her to kill is wrong.
And apparently Miranda knows this too.
But she it seems doesn't wan't to give Jack the satisfaction of knowing that, so instead she stubbornly refuses to admit that it was Cerberus that commited these atrocities and what they did to her was wrong.

Now I personally think any outburst by Jack at this point is completly justifiable.
However, that is on the assumption that this was in fact the first time in the argument where Miranda has denied it was Cerberus who commited the atrocities, which going by the dialogue is not true.
"The cheerleader won't admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong."
This seems to imply Miranda had been denying it before Shepard walked in.
Now again, this is my personal opinion but denying that Cerberus was the one who kidnapped Jack, cut her up, drugged her and forced her to kill when you [Miranda] as a matter of fact do know it was Cerberus who did these things does mean you deserve a chair in the face.
Thus proving that any physical or emotional outburst directed at Miranda at this point in time seems pretty damn justifiable. 

Now Miranda could of avoided this whole thing if she simply admitted that it was Cerberus who did this to Jack and what they did to her was wrong.
Or maybe she couldn't have, but regardless she would of been in the right.
But instead she chooses to deny everything and not give Jack the satisfaction of knowing that she knows what they did to her was wrong.

Now to me this doesn't sound like the retaliation of a mature intelligent woman or someone who is completely free of blame, this sounds like the retaliation of someone acting like a child.
And that is why Miranda is not free of blame at all.
And that is why I believe that Jack may have indeed been in the wrong but Miranda is not free of blame

[Xilizhra]

Melrache wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But Jack doesn't belong to the Cerberus command structure; can Miranda really claim to have any authority over her?

Sure, they're on Normandy after all. :innocent:

The Normandy is Shepard's ship.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
But Jack doesn't belong to the Cerberus command structure; can Miranda really claim to have any authority over her?

Perhaps not, but Jack's on the ship. Miranda doesn't need to establish authority over Jack - that's Shepard's task, after all - but she definitely needs to establish that Jack hasn't got the right to make demands of her. To say nothing of threatening to "smear the walls with her".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 décembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[Melra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Melrache wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But Jack doesn't belong to the Cerberus command structure; can Miranda really claim to have any authority over her?

Sure, they're on Normandy after all. :innocent:

The Normandy is Shepard's ship.

It's Cerberus vessel. Normandy is HQ of Cerberus' Lazarus Cell. 

[Xilizhra]

And TIM gave Shepard full command over it, as confirmed by both Miranda and Jacob.

[Melra]

Xilizhra wrote...

And TIM gave Shepard full command over it, as confirmed by both Miranda and Jacob.

But doesn't mean that he owns it.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, I think it might. Regardless, though, Miranda can't command anyone other than Jacob (maybe) without Shepard's prior approval, as far as I can tell.

[Ieldra]

Xilizrha, please read what I answered above. That should settle the matter.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, I think it might. Regardless, though, Miranda can't command anyone other than Jacob (maybe) without Shepard's prior approval, as far as I can tell.

No, it doesn't meant that Shepard owns it. In fact, at one time Miranda asserts that the mission is a Cerberus operation.

[enayasoul]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, I think it might. Regardless, though, Miranda can't command anyone other than Jacob (maybe) without Shepard's prior approval, as far as I can tell.

No, it doesn't meant that Shepard owns it. In fact, at one time Miranda asserts that the mission is a Cerberus operation.

So what now? Do you think TIM is going to let Shepard and Miranda keep the Normandy SR2 after Miranda resigns from Cerberus?  Will he ask for it back?  Will people be after them? 

[Melra]

enayasoul wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, I think it might. Regardless, though, Miranda can't command anyone other than Jacob (maybe) without Shepard's prior approval, as far as I can tell.

No, it doesn't meant that Shepard owns it. In fact, at one time Miranda asserts that the mission is a Cerberus operation.

So what now? Do you think TIM is going to let Shepard and Miranda keep the Normandy SR2 after Miranda resigns from Cerberus?  Will he ask for it back?  Will people be after them? 

It would be foolish to try and retake a vessel which has unshackled AI, that has allied itself with the owner of the ship. 

Edit: This of course, if you went Paragon route. 

Modifié par Melrache, 23 décembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

@Ieldra2

How people can hate Miri is beyond me.



One more thing. The first chapter of my fic is almost done, so do look out for that. If my boyfriend would just stop demanding some Christmas lovin' from me, I'd be done by now. Grr. >

[jtav]

Oh, I understand how they could hate her. She's cold. She advocates putting a control chip in someone's head. She defends an organization responsible for horrible atrocities in the first game. Worse, her affiliation with that organization is the cornerstone of her identity. She is something of a jerk, and has a gift for belittling and demeaning others that is just this side of verbally abusive.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

But in her defense... Have you seen that arse lol



But come on she is an amazing character that no matter what I do I always romance over anyone else. That's why I can't get through a Femshep playthrough is because I wouldn't be able to get Miranda.

[TomY90]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, I think it might. Regardless, though, Miranda can't command anyone other than Jacob (maybe) without Shepard's prior approval, as far as I can tell.

i think she can considering she ran the lazarus project in which she rebulid shepherd which consisted of a large team of people varying from security to scientists.

[jtav]

I love her to pieces BECAUSE of those flaws. And she also has considerable virtues. She's competent. She does care about the people under her command and will go through hell for her friends and loved ones. She's an idealist who really does want something better for humanity but isn't a xenophobe. She's advocates sacrificing others but she's also willing to put her own life on the line.



She's complicated and I love her for it.

[kaff33nd]

Pity she's too blind to notice that every time she thinks she's got someone figured out they turn out to be the opposite. Good judge of character? Pffft

[jakeN7]

as far as miranda's authority goes the ships crew (the engineers, navigators, the cook, kelly, probably chawkwas and joker too since they joined before shepard was back.) they would all probably report directly to miranda and she would report to shepard. as far as the strike team goes (jack, thane, samara, ect.) well that would probably have to fall directly to shepard.