15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Strikor2115]

Hey guys, So I was really happy with how my bust of Miranda turned out so I applied it to my last piece. I think it looks alot better.

[hooahguy]

Oh my god, it looks a million times better!

[Melra]

She looks great. Good job! And merry Xmas to everyone, btw.

[Caihn]

@Strikor : Very nice.



@Godwood : I didn't ask your opinion about this, and trying to convince me with these arguments I already know, is a waste of time. If I want an opinion of a Jack fan and a Miranda hater, don't worry I would have asked you in the Jack thread.

Now this thread must remain free of character bashing, so I won't argue with you. I know that some people of this thread appreciate Jack, and what I would say about her could shock them.

[Caihn]

Melrache wrote...

She looks great. Good job! And merry Xmas to everyone, btw.

Merry Christmas,  Mel  

[hooahguy]

@Godwood-

Think about it. If your enemy demands that you apologize for something, do you do it?

Maybe if it was a relatively harmless "enemy" like a friend who you are in an argument with, you could easily apologize.



But Jack is no friend. Jack hates Miri. She wants to kill Miri.

Now, why would Miri show weakness? It takes great courage to apologize, but you must also be careful, for your enemy might take it as a weakness and exploit it.

IMO, Miri was wise for conceding nothing.

[Xilizhra]

She was lucky that Shepard showed up when she did. That's about all I can say.

[hooahguy]

Xilizhra wrote...

She was lucky that Shepard showed up when she did. That's about all I can say.

That is true. 

After all, I dont think Miri would like to have Jack smeared all over her wall. 
That would not be a fun thing for Rupert to clean off. 

Modifié par hooahguy, 24 décembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Melra]

hooahguy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She was lucky that Shepard showed up when she did. That's about all I can say.

That is true. 

After all, I dont think Miri would like to have Jack smeared all over her wall. 
That would not be a fun think for Rupert to clean off. 

 Indeed.

[Caihn]

hooahguy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She was lucky that Shepard showed up when she did. That's about all I can say.

That is true. 

After all, I dont think Miri would like to have Jack smeared all over her wall. 
That would not be a fun thing for Rupert to clean off. 

this 

[snfonseka]

Original Image

[Caihn]

nice use of my image, snfonseka  

[Caihn]

 Damn, my Miranda litho arrived yesterday, but I won't be at home until sunday ... 

[snfonseka]

Yannkee wrote...

nice use of my image, snfonseka  

Thanks. I just replayed my main Shepard in ME2 and when Miranda said that line regarding "following to the hell itself..." during conversation; I got this idea.

[hooahguy]

Maybe take off the exclamation point?

[HBC Dresden]

By the way, does anyone know the name of the artist who drew the Miranda Lithograph?

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, I think it might. Regardless, though, Miranda can't command anyone other than Jacob (maybe) without Shepard's prior approval, as far as I can tell.

No, it doesn't meant that Shepard owns it. In fact, at one time Miranda asserts that the mission is a Cerberus operation.

So what now? Do you think TIM is going to let Shepard and Miranda keep the Normandy SR2 after Miranda resigns from Cerberus?  Will he ask for it back?  Will people be after them? 

We were talking of the "legal" status regarding command structure etc.. In that regard, the SR2 is a Cerberus ship and within the Cerberus chain of command. Shepard commands it in a similar way any captain of a military vessel does. Which means, Jack is within the Cerberus chain of command as well as Shepard himself. Miranda is XO, which means that within the domain of her duties she has command over everyone but Shepard. The conflict with Jack is outside the domain of her duties, but nonetheless she needs to project a strong presence and can't be seen giving in to demands presented in forms of threats.

If Shepard breaks with Cerberus, he's stealing the SR2 (Do I see a pattern here?) with tacit approval of the ship's AI. I don't think TIM has much chance of getting it back, but there may still be some secret programming within EDI for such an eventuality. At least, there would be if TIM is the strategist he claims to be.

Not a problem in my games BTW. My Shepards are mostly still with Cerberus, if only because I couldn't give the  base to someone else. I don't think I've ever resented a decision setup in a game as much...

[Caihn]

No, I also wonder who's the artist.

[Andysilv]

Strikor2115 wrote...

Hey guys, So I was really happy with how my bust of Miranda turned out so I applied it to my last piece. I think it looks alot better.

Wow, that is fantastic. You just get better and better at these things.

[jtav]

For those who care about such things, the next chapter of Persistence of Memory is up.

Modifié par jtav, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[GodWood]

Yannkee wrote...
@Godwood : I didn't ask your opinion about this, and trying to convince me with these arguments I already know, is a waste of time. If I want an opinion of a Jack fan and a Miranda hater, don't worry I would have asked you in the Jack thread.

The fact that I'm a Jack fan and a person who hates Miranda is irrelevent.
You said the only one to blame in the argument is Jack, I put in the effort to show that Miranda is not without blame at all.
Your rebuttle is simply blank denial.

Now this thread must remain free of character bashing, so I won't argue with you. I know that some people of this thread appreciate Jack, and what I would say about her could shock them.

lol

[hooahguy]

From Garrus's LM:

[aeetos21]

GodWood wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
But you know, even if I would have liked Jack, it wouldn't have changed my opinion about the fight between Jack and Miranda. To me the only one to blame is Jack.

Oh Yannkee, sometims your fanboyism knows no bounds.
I can accept that you can side with her but you can't possibly believe she free of blame unless you're completely delusional.

Lets actually take a look at the confrontation.There are many things that are unknown about the argument.
How it started? Who was the instigator? and so on.Personally I'm pretty sure it was Jack who stormed her way up there and actually confronted Miranda and thus it was she who the aggressor and so at this point, I'd agree, it is Jack who is in the wrong. (assuming of course Jack was the instigator)

But what was it Jack wanted from Miranda? Well this we actually do know, Jack wanted her to admit that what Cerberus did to her was wrong. Seems simply enough right?
Admit what Cerberus did to Jack was wrong. She admits it to Shepard so it's clearly not something that she is incapable of doing nor is it something she doesn't believe.

As a matter of fact here's the direct quote she gives Shepard "it was a mistake, no question"

Now to keep the high ground and remain 'in the right' and 'not to be blamed' all that would of been required of Miranda was tell this to Jack.The person who's entire life was destroyed by Cerberus.
But no, what does Miranda do? She acts like a childish little ****, denys Cerberus did anything to Jack and calls her a mistake

....

And for what reason does she do that? She admits it to Shepard so why not the victim who's entire life has been completely destroyed by the very people she works for.
Every cut, scar, torture, drugging and rape that has been inflicted on Jack has been a direct or indirect result of Cerberus' actions and any sane human would admit that kidnapping a child, cutting her up, drugging her, torturing her and forcing her to kill is wrong. And apparently Miranda knows this too. But she it seems doesn't wan't to give Jack the satisfaction of knowing that, so instead she stubbornly refuses to admit that it was Cerberus that commited these atrocities and what they did to her was wrong.

...

"The cheerleader won't admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong."

This seems to imply Miranda had been denying it before Shepard walked in. Now again, this is my personal opinion but denying that Cerberus was the one who kidnapped Jack, cut her up, drugged her and forced her to kill when you [Miranda] as a matter of fact do know it was Cerberus who did these things does mean you deserve a chair in the face.Thus proving that any physical or emotional outburst directed at Miranda at this point in time seems pretty damn justifiable. 

Now Miranda could of avoided this whole thing if she simply admitted that it was Cerberus who did this to Jack and what they did to her was wrong. Or maybe she couldn't have, but regardless she would of been in the right. But instead she chooses to deny everything and not give Jack the satisfaction of knowing that she knows what they did to her was wrong.

Now to me this doesn't sound like the retaliation of a mature intelligent woman or someone who is completely free of blame, this sounds like the retaliation of someone acting like a child. And that is why Miranda is not free of blame at all. And that is why I believe that Jack may have indeed been in the wrong but Miranda is not free of blame

And THAT is why you'd make a poor Commander Shepard, but that's getting ahead of myself.

Firstly wrong thread, check the title and see if your comment fits. If this thread were like one of the other DOZENS of threads like this already out there that addresses this fight specifically then yes, you could argue this until your face turns blue and your fingers bleed from repeatedly bashing your keyboard. The only reason I know you aren't on here to troll is because I can see your point of view, as impaired as it is.

You are right with some of your post but a good deal of it is "fanboyism" on your part because just like with any excuse, sooner or later, that excuse just stops working and before you jump out of your chair yes that goes for Miranda and TIM and Cerberus as well. But first a quick history lesson with some actual facts that have been sorely lacking in this thread. In 2165 Jack was abducted from Eden Prime when she was 4 years old, Miranda was only 15 at the time a full twenty years before the events of ME2 (and to satisfy everything's curiosity Shepard is 4 years younger than Miranda so you guys can do that math). Back on track any direct involvement Miranda had in the Pragia facility is null. Which leaves TIM who apparently was being kept out of the dark based off the Pragia recordings - again also fact.

Here is were the real problems begin in your argument. Twenty years ago Cerberus was still an Alliance black ops organization and TIM was under Alliance command. If you want to place blame on those indirectly involved with the events at the Teltin facility then you REALLY need to start broadening your scope, that goes for Jack as well. We're talking a lot more Cerberus personnel and I imagine some pretty high ranking Alliance officials. Does it make sense for Jack to kill them? Should Shepard let her? Course not. Should the Alliance admit responsiblity? Morally very much so, strategically it'd be a nail in the coffin given the war against the reapers.

Same goes with Miranda's treatment of Jack during the fight. Morally Miranda was in the wrong and as Cerberus's poster child she should've said, "You're right. They went rogue but its still our responsiblity." Would THAT have helped in their fight to stop the Collectors? It makes about as much sense as having Thane do the biotic bubble. There needs to be order, discipline, and an absolute end all rule of authority while conducting a military operation. If Miranda were to submit herself to Jack like that then it would be placing the mission in jeopardy. As you said I'm sure Jack's demand for apology didn't start with her throwing a chair across the room. It wouldn't have been cordial but I imagine some pretense of civility would've been there at the onset. It's no secret Miranda doesn't like Jack but she puts their mission ahead of everything else. With the exception of Shepard, Miranda would never admit to anyone on board that any one of Cerberus' past actions were not for the greater good or there were real cases were the ends didn't justify the means. It's called being a good leader and keeping morale up and why most of the Normandy crew don't have any idea what Cerberus is really like. If any doubt was instilled and that "can do" attitude was somehow weakened then yes the mission and lives would pay for it. That's how it works everywhere, if a boss tells their most vocal and hostile employee that: "Yeah you're right we did you wrong - and we apologize," and what do you think will happen if that employee has Jack's attitude? Multiply that factor by three given the stakes of the mission they were on and I can very easily see why Miranda wouldn't give Jack an apology on the behalf of the organization she works for. As for the rest? "Clearly you were a mistake." I'd be pretty pissed too if someone I didn't like was threatening to kill me and throwing stuff around my office. Miranda wasn't looking to end the argument at that point, she was looking to hurt.

Anyway, there yah go. Reason why the Alliance and Cerberus are both at fault and why some crimes can never be revealed, why Jack needs to listen to what Shepard tells her and stop running towards a past she can never change or why using the Cerberus excuse just doesn't work anymore, or why Miranda can't jeopardize the mission by giving Jack more ammo on her than Jack already has. Now if I were in Shepard's shoes? Next time something like that happened between these two one of them would be leaving with a bullet to the back of the head. There's a job to do, the mission is what matters.

Pick your favorite argument and start your next rant on a thread with this topic in its title.

Edit: Don't really want to attach this one at the end of such an angsty reply but yes, Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday whatever your belief. Also today I got my Miranda litho in the mail - talk about great timing! Now I just need to find one of those 18x24 frames.

Modifié par aeetos21, 24 décembre 2010 - 08:26 .

[clennon8]

jtav wrote...

For those who care about such things, the next chapter of Persistence of Memory is up.

I just read all five chapters and left you a couple of reviews.  I love it.  Read this story, people!

[Caihn]

GodWood wrote...
The fact that I'm a Jack fan and a person who hates Miranda is irrelevent.

The fact that I don't want to argue with a Miranda hater in the Miranda fan thread is very relevant to me.

You said the only one to blame in the argument is Jack, I put in the effort to show that Miranda is not without blame at all.
Your rebuttle is simply blank denial.

If you would have paid attention to what I said, you would have noticed that I already know all of your arguments, and it wasn't necessary to post them again. And this subject was discussed in this thread many times. I already explained my point of view about this in the past, and I'm tired to say the same thing again and again.
Besides, I know I can't express my opinion about this without being ruthless against Jack character, and if I want to respect the policy of this thread and the people who like both characters, the only solution is to restrain myself. But that's something I'm not sure you can understand.

Modifié par Yannkee, 24 décembre 2010 - 11:45 .