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Miranda Lawson - our favorite woman in the galaxy (III)


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#10376
Ieldra

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elmjuniper wrote...

Bottomline is you can't help a genetic inheritance, but you can choose your degree of inheritance.

omg. that line is so EPIC! may i please use it for my fanfic?

besides that i have similar thoughts about miranda. it is clear that she resents her father and how she as created, but either way abortion or not, i don't think she would do it becuase of her father. then she would only keep letting him control her life and that's kind of why she left. no?


The thing is, she can't escape either way, regardless of her decision. Which wouldn't be so bad if his engineering had been limited to give her enhanced traits. It should be easy to make your peace with that, and it was only ever a problem because of Miranda's harsh childhood. But to know that your behaviour and your selection of a mate is pre-determined and is part of a plan of your father's, that's a hard pill to swallow. That's why her life will forever be overshadowed by it. 

You should know that Elyvern's current fanfic is named "Degrees of Inheritance" (linked in the OP). These themes will be touched upon there as well eventually as I understand, even though it won't be about mind-control I suppose.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 décembre 2010 - 03:02 .


#10377
clennon8

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MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

Hey clennon8, you wouldn't happen to be tlovmai, would you?


Yes.

Ieldra2 wrote...
You should know that Elyvern's
current fanfic is named "Degrees of Inheritance" (linked in the OP).
These themes will be touched upon there as well eventually as I
understand, even though it won't be about mind-control I suppose.


And let's hope Elyvern writes the 2nd chapter of said story soon.  Chapter 1 was really good!  No pressure or anything, Elyvern!  :)

Modifié par clennon8, 27 décembre 2010 - 03:26 .


#10378
elmjuniper

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The thing is, she can't escape either way, regardless of her decision. Which wouldn't be so bad if his engineering had been limited to give her enhanced traits. It should be easy to make your peace with that, and it was only ever a problem because of Miranda's harsh childhood. But to know that your behaviour and your selection of a mate is pre-determined and is part of a plan of your father's, that's a hard pill to swallow. That's why her life will forever be overshadowed by it.




she is in a bit of a tricky siutation, but I don't know... at some point miranda has to realize that even though she was genetically created the desicions she makes are still her own. but yeah i get what you're saying, i guess i'm just more like, it doesn't have to be her father controlling her, not if she makes her decisions based on her own thoughts regardless of her father's role. he might have forced her into a situation he might not have, he might forseen it, he might have pre-determined it, eitherway, the choice she makes will be her own if she choose it. i reckon, but that's just my way of seeing it.

#10379
jtav

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Ieldra's reading was what I intended. She never have a choice not to fall for Shepard. Despite Miranda's attempts to build her own life, she remains her father's tool. The conception of this child is his ultimate victory over her.

#10380
elmjuniper

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jtav wrote...

Ieldra's reading was what I intended. She never have a choice not to fall for Shepard. Despite Miranda's attempts to build her own life, she remains her father's tool. The conception of this child is his ultimate victory over her.


ooh.. oops... i was just discussing miranda's sort of veiw of "im controlled by my father" in general. but what you wrote sounds kinda of eeeevil and tiwsted! nice! :)

Modifié par elmjuniper, 27 décembre 2010 - 03:35 .


#10381
Elyvern

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Then I guess it's up to me to write the other side of the story; the part where she mentally triumphs over her father's machinations, jtav. :)

@elmjuniper - be my guest. Just drop me a credit please as it's not simply a line, but the title and premise of my fic.

@clennon8 - thank you for the review on FF.net and your heartfelt words. Next chapter sitting at 12k words currently, will end at 20k. It's gigantic, and hence the delay.

Just in case everyone's wondering why there's so much bleedin of ideas, themes and scenarios between jtav, Ieldra, fongiel and my stories, we discuss our ideas daily so there's quite a bit of cross pollination going around.

#10382
elmjuniper

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Elyvern wrote...

Then I guess it's up to me to write the other side of the story; the part where she mentally triumphs over her father's machinations, jtav. :)


yay please!

@elmjuniper - be my guest. Just drop me a credit please as it's not simply a line, but the title and premise of my fic.

naturally! when you post the first bit of the fanfic, hit me with a link and i'll link my readers to you. ^^

Modifié par elmjuniper, 27 décembre 2010 - 03:43 .


#10383
Elyvern

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I've put the link as my signature to avoid confusion. And in case it's not clear, the "happy outcome" of jtav's darkfic will be addressed in Degrees of Inheritance.

Modifié par Elyvern, 27 décembre 2010 - 03:59 .


#10384
Ieldra

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I'd like to add that I like to imagine that Shepard and Miranda will have children - eventually, but that I'd hate it if any surprise pregnancy appeared in ME3 as to make it appear like a "cured by Shepard's super sperm" scenario. I want her infertility optionally reversed by intention, and no children within the timeline of ME3.



The absolute loathing of that "surprise pregnancy" scenario was what triggered jtav's latest fic.


#10385
jtav

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Indeed, that would pretty much destroy her character for me. I absolutely don't want a surprise pregnancy under any circumstances. I'll replay Shepard if necessary, even kill off Jacob. Just to make sure.

#10386
elmjuniper

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to add that I like to imagine that Shepard and Miranda will have children - eventually, but that I'd hate it if any surprise pregnancy appeared in ME3 as to make it appear like a "cured by Shepard's super sperm" scenario. I want her infertility optionally reversed by intention, and no children within the timeline of ME3.


hahahahahahaha! i'll be laughing all the way to work. thanks! rofl "shepard's super sperm"

#10387
Elyvern

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So for all the people scratching their heads wondering what was jtav so against that she was compelled to write a subversive fic about it, I’m reposting my theory from elsewhere about how Miranda’s infertility will be addressed in ME3. Bear with me, it’s going to be a long post, but hopefully at the end of it, you can judge for yourself how likely Bioware will take this approach.

The pertinent facts:

The background

The news comes at the end of an optional DLC, in a series of dossiers, presented almost like an afterthought.

The facts as presented:

As quoted from the Shadow Broker dossier:

“…we can confirm that the progressive damage renders you unable to conceive a child.”

Note how the phrasing of her infertility is intentionally and skilfully made ambiguous. You can take it as she’s already infertile, or that she’s still fertile, but will become progressively barren. The key word here is “renders” in present tense. There was thought that went into writing it. I’ll take the second reading: that Miranda is not entirely infertile yet.

Interpretation of the facts:

Set aside your knee-jerk reactions for or against it and think why was it introduced? Also remember a story device can achieve many things at once. Which makes it far harder to untangle Bioware’s intentions behind introducing it, but I believe in this case, we can attempt to unravel why Miranda’s infertility was introduced.

As a means to flesh out characters

It’s easy to recognise this one. Basically, all the dossiers opt to give us titbits of every squadmate with the least amount of resources needed. Miranda’s ipartner dating dossier and her chat transcript with Oriana falls into this category.

As a sympathy card

A lot of players have expressed that they feel far more sympathetic of Miranda after learning about this. I’ll set aside the question of why Bioware deems it important enough that they need more people to feel sympathetic towards her because that’s another topic for discussion (I have my own theory about this too). But it cannot be denied that yes, it generally made players feel more well-disposed towards her.

But note too that she’s not the only squadmate who has that sympathy card played out. Garrus’s dossier for example, talks about his dying mother and the estrangement he suffers from the rest of his family. Jack’s dossier talks about how her mother was tricked into giving her up.

More than a sympathy card

Still, no one single squadmate apart from Miranda has a dossier entry which has an effect on their attractiveness as a LI, or an effect on the LI epilogue. Surely, Bioware writers would know about the rabid fanbase their characters have. Introducing a piece of news like this has a discernable effect to players who have romanced her and players who potentially want to romance her. Already, a number of people have chose to opt for another LI because they imagine their Shepard can’t have children with Miranda.

As a sympathy card, it’s extremely heavy-handed to the extent of rocking the boat where Bioware says they give all the romances equal priorities. Notice too that her chat transcript with Oriana also serves the same purpose—making her more likeable, so why the double dipping?

What other reasons might there be introducing something so drastic?

Treatment: dos and don’ts

Okay, here comes the tricky part. A lot of what I’m writing here is conjecture based on likelihood, perceived intentions and additional story benefits that could be reaped from such a disclosure. At any turn, I could be proven wrong for nothing else but the fact that I can’t prove any of my points with bare facts.

So given that this damning issue is out on the table now, the next few obvious questions are:

1.Does Bioware intend it to be resolved at all?
2.Will it be resolved?
3.How is it going to be resolved?

Does Bioware intend it to be resolved at all?

Given that we’ve already established how heavy-handed it is, and the impact it has on Miranda’s status as a LI, we have to assume that there is a reason it’s introduced more than just character enhancement info, and that yes, they are going to do something about it.

Will it be resolved?

This one has to take into consideration a lot of factors. ME3 as we have seen so far, seems to be focused on the Reaper threat to earth and the galaxy, and judging from the fact that ME2 didn’t seem to advance Shepard’s quest against the Reapers much at all, ME3 does seem to have a lot to do in this respect.

Thus we can assume that things like loyalty missions or any squadmate-specific mission, interaction will probably be at the minimal, with the exception of love interest. A romance can very well value-add to the Reaper fight tremendously for dramatic and emotional reasons. I’ll explain why this is pertinent later.

Given all these limits, there doesn’t seem to be a way to address the issue of Miranda’s infertility without derailing the plot and tempo of ME3. The clinical nature of the problem makes it go far beyond a romantic issue.

How is it going to be resolved?

The easiest way to do this is of course to handwave the infertility issue away at the end of ME3. As Ieldra suggested, we could have player-influenced epilogues where Shepard and Miranda can have a talk and which dialogue choice you make will then affect the final ending to Shepard’s story.

a. You brought me back from the dead, this isn’t going to stop you – cure
b. Things can’t go the way we want to all the time. We’ll have to deal with it – no cure

Attractive as this sounds, it doesn’t do away with the fact that the issue gets introduced and then nothing was done with it. It’s a cop-out. And the impression is why even introduce it in the first place? If it’s not there, the above dialogue doesn’t even have to take place. There would be no need to spend resources creating that cut scene.

Also, the problem with medical dilemmas are they come with an on/off switch. You either get cured, or you don’t. There is no middle ground. This is akin to Thane suffering from Kepral’s syndrome. A cure would simply make light of his suffering, rendering it a cop-out. For example, an approach that prolongs his lifespan for a couple more years would actually skirt the issue of his illness being a cop-out. It will be addressed, somewhat, but not to the extent of making players feel cheated. However, the problem now is….isn’t this detracting from the fight against the Reapers? Any “cure” worth implementing will run into this danger.

So similarly, while I can see Bioware taking that approach with Miranda’s infertility, the fact is any “solution” can’t detract from the Reaper war is a serious consideration.

My Theory

So with all the above points in mind, what is my theory?

Have Miranda get knocked up. It’s a miracle baby; it’s the only chance (assuming you don’t meta other solutions post ME3 for a real cure) for her and Shepard to have a child. And in one shot, it addresses the issue without making it a cop-out (note I don't deny it still doesn't address the issue of her eventual infertility), but also prevents it from becoming too distracting to the main mission. It’s serendipity, no one saw it coming. She’ll have to tell Shepard, but depending on the timing, they’ll have to set it aside for more pressing issues. Or leave it to the epilogue to discuss the repercussions.

What about players that didn’t play LotSB and didn’t know she was suppose to be infertile? The news will still apply, but for those that purchased LotSB, it’ll have additional impact, thus value-adding to the revelation.

Breaking the news prior to the final fight would also add dramatic tension to the ending; ie. There is more at stake for the romance. It’d also tie in somewhat with the fact that it’s likely her father intended Miranda to become some sort of broodmare for his genetic ambitions. And so if Bioware intends to explore that angle, this approach will also serve that purpose.

Conclusion

Can Miranda's infertility issue be resolved in another way taking into consideration all the story limitations I've listed above? Yes, there is 1 more option. Make it a post-reaper DLC or make it cross-media story (comic series). If that's the approach Bioware intends to take, then obviously nothing will be made of it in ME3. But a character specific DLC runs into many dangers, the primarily one in this case is it's so character-centric it may actually hurt sales.

Is it cheesy? Yes, it is. In fact, it reminds me of the Dark Ritual in DAO. But there already, Bioware has shown they are not above such cheese.

My intent here was to reverse engineer Bioware’s motives and thus determine their intentions, and so I haven’t included my feelings for or against this scenario. But for the record I want to state I absolutely *hate* this scenario and I wish to hell it’d never come to pass. The dangers of derailing Miranda’s character are very real, reducing her to a cameo or even a sidelined character with no real task to play in the defeat of the reapers except as a symbol or an auxiliary to Shepard. It takes away the power of choice from players, it railroads Mirimancers into one path and only one path. It makes Shepard out to be the super-sperm machine. As well as many more reasons which I’m sure Ieldra and jtav will be more than ready to voice out.

Modifié par Elyvern, 27 décembre 2010 - 05:05 .


#10388
clennon8

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elmjuniper wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to add that I like to imagine that Shepard and Miranda will have children - eventually, but that I'd hate it if any surprise pregnancy appeared in ME3 as to make it appear like a "cured by Shepard's super sperm" scenario. I want her infertility optionally reversed by intention, and no children within the timeline of ME3.


hahahahahahaha! i'll be laughing all the way to work. thanks! rofl "shepard's super sperm"


Sperm?  Shepard can get a girl pregnant with a sexy look.

I would be very surprised if their are any pregnancies in ME3.  I was going to say the same about weddings, but I'm not as sure about that.  Does BioWare have a history of doing that in their games?  I haven't played KOTOR and the like..

#10389
Mr Plow

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to add that I like to imagine that Shepard and Miranda will have children - eventually, but that I'd hate it if any surprise pregnancy appeared in ME3 as to make it appear like a "cured by Shepard's super sperm" scenario. I want her infertility optionally reversed by intention, and no children within the timeline of ME3.

The absolute loathing of that "surprise pregnancy" scenario was what triggered jtav's latest fic.



'shepard's super sperm'    lol


is there anything that Shepard can't do? Posted Image

#10390
Ieldra

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clennon8 wrote...
I would be very surprised if their are any pregnancies in ME3.  I was going to say the same about weddings, but I'm not as sure about that.  Does BioWare have a history of doing that in their games?  I haven't played KOTOR and the like..

The only one I recall is Aerie in BG2:TOB. But she was a different kind of character.

Elyvern posted that theory because in her opinion, it's the easiest way to deal with her infertility without making a complete non-issue of it and taking the opportunity to get a dramatic solution to the whole loathsome issue. But the disadvantages easily outweigh any dramatic concerns:

Miranda is a character complex enough that she would work very well in different kinds of epilogues. Railroading her into one with a family is something I don't think would appeal to many players. It would take choice away from the players, reduce Miranda's importance further and make her nothing more than an adjunct to Shepard, and it would appear like a "cure by Shepard's super sperm".

Also it's so cheesy it reeks from here to Alpha Centauri.

I don't know why Elyvern went to such lengths to develop a theory she hates as much as I do, but we are agreed in that this "surprise pregnancy" scenario would be absolutely loathesome.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 décembre 2010 - 05:06 .


#10391
jtav

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And we get another reinforcement of babies being necessary for the happy ever after. And Miranda is reduced to nothing more than a symbol for "why we fight."

#10392
enayasoul

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Mr Plow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to add that I like to imagine that Shepard and Miranda will have children - eventually, but that I'd hate it if any surprise pregnancy appeared in ME3 as to make it appear like a "cured by Shepard's super sperm" scenario. I want her infertility optionally reversed by intention, and no children within the timeline of ME3.

The absolute loathing of that "surprise pregnancy" scenario was what triggered jtav's latest fic.



'shepard's super sperm'    lol


is there anything that Shepard can't do? Posted Image


Hahaha I love this.  "Shepard's super sperm"  leave it to shepard to do the impossible. :D

I actually like the idea... of a suprise pregnancy but not because of Shepard super sperm.  I'm not opposed to the idea of pregnancies/births in ME3. :D 

I also like to think that Miranda is somewhat fertile and something is interfering with her being able to conceive.  I like the idea that it would come as a surprise to both of them, if it ever happened.  Given the fact she thought she was infertile or unable to conceive. 

The way I am going in my fic is that Miranda thinks the doctors were incompetent.  Inconsistant.  Do you think it would be wrong of her to use Shepard to try and get pregnant?  To prove the doctors wrong?  Because she couldn't believe she's infertile, like it was a slap in the face.  She suppose to be perfect but she's not.  And leave it up to Miranda's determination to fix it.  I think she would do it for Shepard, if he wanted kids.  She might even entertain the notion of wanting a child, his child.

The whole father angle is intriguing...  I could see him still wanting to interfere in her life without Miranda knowing.  Either by using Oriana to get to her or if he tries to fix her problem. Would he have known about it all along?  Thus why she ran? He was going to kill her and start over.

:whistle:

#10393
Elyvern

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I didn't set out to develop this theory as you see it now...sigh... I sat down and looked at all the limitations we had to work around, the nature of the information, the way it was presented, the effect it has on players and then tried to come up with a scenario that would encompass and address them all. That the end result is a theory I dislike didn't factor into why I went into the whole exercise in the first place. Please stop shooting the messenger. :(

#10394
clennon8

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Ieldra2 wrote...

clennon8 wrote...
I would be very surprised if their are any pregnancies in ME3.  I was going to say the same about weddings, but I'm not as sure about that.  Does BioWare have a history of doing that in their games?  I haven't played KOTOR and the like..

The only one I recall is Aerie in BG2:TOB. But she was a different kind of character.
Elyvern posted that theory because in her opinion, it's the easiest way to deal with her infertility without making a complete non-issue of it and taking the opportunity to get a dramatic solution to the whole loathsome issue. But the disadvantages easily outweigh any dramatic concerns:
Miranda is a character complex enough that she would work very well in different kinds of epilogues. Railroading her into one with a family is something I don't think would appeal to many players. It would take choice away from the players, reduce Miranda's importance further and make her nothing more than an adjunct to Shepard, and it would appear like a "cure by Shepard's super sperm".
Also it's so cheesy it reeks from here to Alpha Centauri.

Yeah, I totally agree.  If they discuss the matter of Miranda's in/fertility at all, I hope it's simply in the context of giving Shepard the choice to say "Sorry, but I need little Shepards running around.  See ya." or "All I need is you, babe."  No miracle pregnancies, please.

#10395
MsSihaKatieKrios

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@Elyvern

No worries, I won't shoot you, I'll just call in an AC130. XD

#10396
jtav

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And another, even shorter story dealing with Miranda's infertility. Considerably more optimistic however.

And Everything Was Possible

Words: 524
Rating: G
Pairings: None
Summary: The Lazarus Project presents infinite possibilities, particularly for its director.

#10397
TomY90

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I like this whole baby idea and I just realised it could act as a spin off for the Mass Effect Series as a new story as playing the some of the great commander shepherd (the only problem with that of course if you have a relationship with another race of course except with liara for obvious reasons)

#10398
fongiel24

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God, if you're out there, please don't allow the next ME series to be a "chosen one" story featuring Shepard's offspring. I'm sorry I slept through Christmas church service, it won't happen again. Amen.

#10399
elmjuniper

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fongiel24 wrote...

God, if you're out there, please don't allow the next ME series to be a "chosen one" story featuring Shepard's offspring. I'm sorry I slept through Christmas church service, it won't happen again. Amen.


rofl. hahahaha! not even god can be that cruel!

you wouldn't perhaps be thinking of dragon age 2 where you have to play hawke - which is no doubt the spawn of morrigan and whomever she slept with......? i hate that.... i hate it...

#10400
mellifera

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elmjuniper wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

God, if you're out there, please don't allow the next ME series to be a "chosen one" story featuring Shepard's offspring. I'm sorry I slept through Christmas church service, it won't happen again. Amen.


rofl. hahahaha! not even god can be that cruel!

you wouldn't perhaps be thinking of dragon age 2 where you have to play hawke - which is no doubt the spawn of morrigan and whomever she slept with......? i hate that.... i hate it...


Except that was like one of the first theories shot down by the devs when DA2 was announced. DA2's storyline intersects with DA:O, so unless Morrigan and Dark Ritual Character are also time travelers...